Green Line Type 9 Procurement

[Equilibria]

I figure this needs a thread of its own, since it will probably be a recurring topic for a few years. It's up to a mod to move the last page of Type 9 chat from the GLX thread over here.

Some brief reading material:

Boston Magazine
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2014/05/13/green-line-new-trains-could-happen-by-2017/

Boston.com
http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...-could-come/xhSL0vUTc8yLZHvNEHbMxI/story.html

Concept Drawings (these look distinctly like CAF's current products, so I bet they'll end up being close to the finished product, despite being 5 years old).
http://greenlineextension.eot.state.ma.us/documents/about/Topics/GrnLnType9Veh_ConceptDrawings.pdf

 

[datadyne007]

Thanks for the refresher on the concepts!

 

[Matthew]

Is it just me or are those doors tiny?!

 

[Equilibria]

Is it just me or are those doors tiny?!

I just did a quick image search - did that render get handed out at the meeting today? All the press is about the fare increase...

 

[Matthew]

It showed up here:
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2014/05/13/green-line-new-trains-could-happen-by-2017/

 

[Arlington]

Is it just me or are those doors tiny?!

You don't look tiny, but, yes, the doors do, at least compared to the Type 8 (below) but may be that the functional opening is the same (with the Type 8's "accordion" doors "sticking" in the way in their bigger opening). The CAFs look like they have "minvan" / pop-out-slide-over style doors.

 

[Matthew]

Hah, thanks.

I guess I will have to find some specs to be sure. I am just eyeing that front door, which seems to be the same size as a passenger car door, and imagining being forced to squeeze through that for the inane "front door policy" of the T, while people are trying to exit.

 

[Equilibria]

It showed up here:
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2014/05/13/green-line-new-trains-could-happen-by-2017/

Ah yes, they have updated the article. It's kind of weird that an article with a Tuesday dateline contains the results of a vote on Wednesday without anything calling that out...

Hah, thanks.

I guess I will have to find some specs to be sure. I am just eyeing that front door, which seems to be the same size as a passenger car door, and imagining being forced to squeeze through that for the inane "front door policy" of the T, while people are trying to exit.

Are you sure that would be necessary? That door kind of looks like it's just for the driver...

 

[novitiate]

Ah yes, they have updated the article. It's kind of weird that an article with a Tuesday dateline contains the results of a vote on Wednesday without anything calling that out...

Are you sure that would be necessary? That door kind of looks like it's just for the driver...

After a discussion on Twitter regarding this I now suspect the white circled button is a demand button, which would imply that is indeed a passenger door...

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Well let's hope they don't repeat the Type 8 debacle.

 

[Equilibria]

Well let's hope they don't repeat the Type 8 debacle.

I'm encouraged by the fact that the render is out so quickly, the timeline is fairly rapid, and CAF is a very established manufacturer in this space. It implies that we're getting something fairly tried and true this time around (maybe the T has learned their lesson from Breda and Hyundai).

Not a good paint scheme, but I doubt that's the final version. On the other hand, the photo source is the MBTA, so maybe it is. I think I've seen a track maintenance vehicle that is painted pretty much exactly like that.

 

[winstonoboogie]

Hah, thanks.

I guess I will have to find some specs to be sure. I am just eyeing that front door, which seems to be the same size as a passenger car door, and imagining being forced to squeeze through that for the inane "front door policy" of the T, while people are trying to exit.

The specs from 2011 state the following in the door system general requirement section:

-Each vehicle shall have six passenger door openings for the boarding of passengers.

-Two openings on each side directly across from those on the opposite side in the low floor A and B sections.

-The other two openings shall be located on the right side of the Operator‘s cab with one in the A section and one in the B section of the high floor areas of the vehicle.

-There shall be no door openings in the center section.

-All passenger doors shall be of the sliding plug type.

-The door openings in the low floor area (A and B section) shall include an operator deployable device to bridge the gap between the vehicle threshold and the wayside platform.

-Doors shall be enabled and controlled by trainline signals or a combination of trainline and databus signals originated by the Operator

-Each doorway shall include two door panels which slide in opposite directions, parallel to the side of the vehicle.

-The exterior of the door panels shall be flush with the exterior of the vehicle when closed.

-Under any combination of vehicle loading, suspension deflection or failure, or wheel wear, the bottom of the door shall not mechanically interfere with the top of the wayside platform during any portion of the open or close cycle.

-Doors shall not protrude more than 2.2 inches (56 mm) from the vehicle side during any portion of the open or close cycle.

-Clear door opening in the low floor areas shall be 50 inches (1270 mm), minimum

-Clear door opening of the openings adjacent to the Operator‘s cab shall be in accordance with EN Standard 14752.

 

[omaja]

Carrying this over from the GLX thread...

The Type 9s aren't going to be replacing anything, they are the additional cars needed to have enough equipment to cover the needs of GLX. The Type 7 overhaul program has only just started (first one expected back in August). It won't be until a future order of Type 10s before anything is ordered to replace the Type 7s and Type 8s, and that won't be until after the Red and Orange line orders arrive by 2020.

That is exactly my point - these vehicles are going to be the outliers for quite some time. If less than 10 percent of the whole fleet is Type 9s, it isn't the vast overhaul in ridding the Green Line of old, rusty equipment that the media appears to be painting it as.

 

[Jahvon09]

Those look almost similar to the ones in Texas!

 

[davem]

Carrying this over from the GLX thread...



That is exactly my point - these vehicles are going to be the outliers for quite some time. If less than 10 percent of the whole fleet is Type 9s, it isn't the vast overhaul in ridding the Green Line of old, rusty equipment that the media appears to be painting it as.

The type 7s are going out for an overhaul. When they come back they may look old, but they should operate as brand new. They are also unquestionably the best cars since the PCCs. If anything, I could see a future Type 10 order replacing everything, many years in the future when the type 8s are ready to be scrapped. As of now doing a complete overhaul would be a waste, the type 7s and 8s have quite a few years left in them.

The media, of course, is misrepresenting / not understanding facts.

 

[Jahvon09]

The Type 7s would go first though. They are the next ones on the chopping block. Some of them look like Relics from the Dinosaur Age, mainly because they look like they've been neglected & ignored for what seems like eons!

Like the old Orange Line cars, the paint has come off some of them in big blobs, exposing rusted metal underneath. Some were repainted, but now since the greedy transit agency is raising the fares again in July, the least they can do is give their old equipment a facelift.

 

[davem]

The Type 7s would go first though. They are the next ones on the chopping block. Some of them look like Relics from the Dinosaur Age, mainly because they look like they've been neglected & ignored for what seems like eons!

Like the old Orange Line cars, the paint has come off some of them in big blobs, exposing rusted metal underneath. Some were repainted, but now since the greedy transit agency is raising the fares again in July, the least they can do is give their old equipment a facelift.

The type 7s are going out for an overhaul. When they come back they may look old, but they should operate as brand new.

They are getting more than a facelift, they are rebuilding the entire fleet. Paint, interior, mechanical, everything. The PCCs at Mattapan are older than most of the people on this forum. Perhaps twice the age. Properly overhauled equipment, minus significant frame damage, can pretty much run indefinitely.

 

[Nexis4jersey]

Rumor has it SEPTA might try to replace its 141 streetcars ,along with an addition order for 45 for restored route 23 and 56 service... piggybacking off this order.

 

[Jahvon09]

They are getting more than a facelift, they are rebuilding the entire fleet. Paint, interior, mechanical, everything. The PCCs at Mattapan are older than most of the people on this forum. Perhaps twice the age. Properly overhauled equipment, minus significant frame damage, can pretty much run indefinitely.

Yeah, they've even add a new & improved HVAC system to the PCC's, and I think a GPS navigation system for approaching station announcements.

They really are keeping up with the upkeep of these much older trolleys. Probably because they are the oldest known trollies presently in use, and they want to retain the old yellow & orange flavor from yesteryear - a time back when the PCC's had dominated all of the Green Line routes.

 

[Matthew]

At the Green Line forum Brian Kane made the claim that the concept drawings were not the final design and we shouldn't draw any conclusions from that.