Ink Block (Boston Herald) | 300 Harrison Avenue | South End

[Sicilian]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Not that I'm sure it makes a difference, but there is a Foodies opening on West Broadway (probably about 1m away), and rumors of another supermarket or smaller market somewhere near the Macallan building.

 

[Lurker]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

I'd like a supermarket that was walkable for the majority of the South End. If the Blackstone School wasn't such a necessary disaster or Cathedral Housing was ever knocked down, that would be an even better location.

I'm strongly in the camp that the New York City Street's grid absolutely must be brought back for this area to thrive. Otherwise whatever development occurs is going to be dead impenetrable super-blocks; like everything else built in the South End in the past 50 years.

 

[statler]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Otherwise whatever development occurs is going to be dead impenetrable super-blocks; like everything else built in Boston in the past 50 years.

Fixed that for you.

 

[el raval]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

I'm strongly in the camp that the New York City Street's grid absolutely must be brought back for this area to thrive. Otherwise whatever development occurs is going to be dead impenetrable super-blocks; like everything else built in the South End in the past 50 years.

I'm not sure if you've been to the South End in the last decade, but the Washington Street corridor is the one area of town that has been developed with a much finer grain of solid infill development that has generally avoided the scale of the superblock.

I would argue that the stretch of Washington (and Harrison) between East Berkeley and Mass Ave has been the one area of the city that has been redeveloped and is an unqualified success.

Hacin's Myers+Chang building, Wilkes Passage, the Cathedral gymnasium, the redevelopment of the Penny Savings Bank, Thayer St and 450 Harrison, 500 Harrison, the Art Block Lofts, Harrison Commons/Penmark, and the Moakley building at BMC all work well as individual projects and add to the urban ensemble.

 

[Lurker]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

I live in the South End; have since 1980. The difference with the developments on Washington Street is that they've been infill of an existing grid. A grid which was still spaced to human and not automotive dimensions. The entire Herald Square, or whatever the BRA is calling it now, area deliberately obliterated the NYC streets' grid in order to impose super blocks and road sizing specific to trucking.

 

[el raval]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Absolutely agreed that establishing a finely scaled street grid is one of the keys to the success of development here, and creating a sense of urbanity where one doesn't exist.

The Herald property itself though, didn't erase a pre-existing finer street pattern, as near as I can tell from maps from the 1880s. Given the proximity to the industrial uses fronting the channel and south bay, east of Harrison was already a super block from Dover St (East Berkeley) to Castle (Herald).

I would guess that we believe in the same solutions for the neighborhood, I just took issue to the generalization "dead impenetrable super-blocks; like everything else built in the South End in the past 50 years." It seemed like a throwaway defeatist line that is common on this forum echoing that Boston can't do anything right. One of the only areas of large scale redevelopment in the city that I do think will turn out well (despite the incompetence of the BRA) is the South End. The Herald corner however might not ever be a success, given that it is fronted to the north and east by the Pike and 93, and as you mention, there is currently no human-scaled grid, nor any single structure worth building around and infilling between.

 

[JohnAKeith]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Hmmm. I came to a different conclusion than you did. From this 1895 map, it looks as though the street grid went all the way 'north' to Broadway and the rail lines heading west.

http://www.communityheritagemaps.com/boston/big/boston15.html

The block between Washington and Harrison, yes, seems to have been undeveloped but the Herald plant is between Harrison and Albany, no? It looks to be densely populated housing all the way to Troy St, which is one block away from Dover/E. Berkeley, no?

 

[porter]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Don't all the rich people in the South End go to corner grocers? I worked at one on Tremont Street for a short time and these places have a pretty solidly loyal customer base. It doesn't seem like corporate supermarkets like Whole Foods would do good business, at least not with these people.

 

[Lurker]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Don't all the rich people in the South End go to corner grocers? I worked at one on Tremont Street for a short time and these places have a pretty solidly loyal customer base. It doesn't seem like corporate supermarkets like Whole Foods would do good business, at least not with these people.

A lot of people depend on PeaPod deliveries here and aren't too happy about it. It's not fun dragging a cart to the Pru or having to drive to either South Bay or the Pru in bad weather.

The corner stores only have so much and one gets tired of being gouged in order to "support a local business" that could care less about their customer base or service. It was a little different before gentrification. Now almost every 'bodega' has become a pretentious extortion racket.

 

[porter]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Again, I've worked at one and I didn't get that feeling at all.^ These are well off people in this neighborhood and they're willing to pay for the higher quality products that most of these stores sell....otherwise these businesses wouldn't be around right now.

 

[Lurker]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

"higher quality products" = slapping an organic sticker on the same gallon of milk Shaws/Stop&Shop sell as their generic brand and charging $7 for it.

 

[dshoost88]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

^^ I think the higher quality products he's talking about are meat markets, wine & cheese vendors, and places you can buy fresh coffee grounds/beans from an exotic island few of us have ever heard of.

 

[el raval]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Hmmm. I came to a different conclusion than you did. From this 1895 map, it looks as though the street grid went all the way 'north' to Broadway and the rail lines heading west.

http://www.communityheritagemaps.com/boston/big/boston15.html

The block between Washington and Harrison, yes, seems to have been undeveloped but the Herald plant is between Harrison and Albany, no? It looks to be densely populated housing all the way to Troy St, which is one block away from Dover/E. Berkeley, no?

It would be impossible to draw such different conclusions from the same map! Actually I was looking at the 1883 map from the South End Historical Society, which showed a single parcel from Dover to Castle. It's hard to imagine that the neighborhood could have changed so much in 12 years to be indistinguishable... that by 1895 an entirely new richly-scaled area was born in a decade... oh what could be accomplished in Victorian times!

 

[Lurker]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

^^ I think the higher quality products he's talking about are meat markets, wine & cheese vendors, and places you can buy fresh coffee grounds/beans from an exotic island few of us have ever heard of.

In that case I concur.

 

[JohnAKeith]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

I disagree stringently(?) with the argument that the South End's population subsists on fois gras and wine and cheese. You haven't spent enough time in the neighborhood if you think that's who my neighbors are.

Firstly, and most-obviously, there is a large population of low-wage (or, no-wage) earners in the two public housing projects, along with Villa Victoria and Tent City and the co-ops on Tremont Street and the ... so on and so on.

While there might a fair amount of people who love the cheeses of Formaggio, spending any time at Foodies or the Back Bay Shaws would prove the point that the majority of residents buy food just like the rest of you.

Except for last-minute necessities. We buy milk at CVS and not at the corner "bodega" because it's $1.69 at CVS but $2.75 at the corner (and at Foodies).

Yes, perhaps we're different (we're poor) but all of my friends do the same thing.

It could very well be "old" South Enders vs. "new" (the dreaded "new") South Enders but I think.

I don't disagree that you may find some who live that sort of life, but far from the norm; I'd bet 10%, at best.

If it was different, we wouldn't be able to support two 7-Elevens, two CVS's and a Walgreens. They're not making a living off our purchases of pharmaceuticals; they're doing it off purchases of Doritos and Vagisal.

You're buying into some sort of story if you think the South End is made up of "rich" people. Perhaps those are who you saw at your corner store but that's because everyone else was shopping elsewhere.

And, I don't think the "rich" people go to the corner store for more than a gallon of milk and perhaps some wine or a block of cheese. But, that's not "food-shopping".

More people here would probably love a Trader Joe's over a Whole Foods, because it's cheaper. They'd like a Whole Foods only because it's known for having good quality food and because it's name isn't "Shaws" or "Stop and Shop" so we remain something better than a suburb.

In theory.

 

[Justin7]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

"higher quality products" = slapping an organic sticker on the same gallon of milk Shaws/Stop&Shop sell as their generic brand and charging $7 for it.

If it has an organic sticker on it how can be the same product?

 

[Lurker]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Unless it's a USDA certified organic sticker, anyone can slap an "organic" sticker on most types of a food.

 

[albertmw]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

at least not with these people.

A lesson in forum moderation, when you see something like this, prune it right away. Man these threads get off topic easily...

 

[Justin7]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Unless it's a USDA certified organic sticker, anyone can slap an "organic" sticker on most types of a food.

Are you saying that these are illegitimate or that these markets just slap stickers on uncertified food? If it is the latter they should be reported.

 

[HenryAlan]

Re: Boston Herald property sold

Are you saying that these are illegitimate or that these markets just slap stickers on uncertified food? If it is the latter they should be reported.

There are lots of ways to label a food product that can be misleading, I think that's what Lurker is getting at. This goes for organic, free range, fair traded, etc. All of that stuff can be fudged.