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Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

TheRifleman said:
Front Page of the Globe

http://www.boston.com/

I hope you enjoy giving your hardearned taxmoney to this asshole. Deval Patrick and Mayor Menino should be arrested.
46.5 Million in tax dollars to help him with this development. This is nothing more than enriching a very greedy person TED KELLY.

This scenario is everything wrong with developments today.
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Riff -- Firing at random again -- think, then aim, then fire

The name Mutual has real meaning when it comes to an insurance company -- it means that the company is owned by its policy holders

That of course doesn't mean Mr. Kelley can't be paid well and could become wealthy -- but it is clear that he personally didn't get anything out of the development. The company on the other hand gains a nice new building for its headquarters, suitable of the 3rd largest property and casualty insurer in the US, and the 82nd company on the Fortune 500, with 45,000 employees globally that could set up its head office anywhere.

By the way, you should now be looking to aim at Mr. Long, as he succeeded Mr. Kelley as CEO, last July.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

bbfen said:
Why is he an asshole? Because he knows how to drive a hard bargain?

Is LibMu a terrible corporate neighbor? Did he personally send agents to your house to kill your young? Please help me understand why the failure of our elected officials to have a spine means a CEO doing his job is an asshole.
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Ted Kelly is an asshole for buying our political class then game the entire system and swindle the American Peoples taxmoney to enrich his fellow corporate workers. Yes..... its legal because the people in charge have sold us out.

"Is LibMu a terrible corporate neighbor? Did he personally send agents to your house to kill your young?" No... but deals like these are enslaving our youth into to becoming govt debt slaves because the GOVT officials continue to promote deals that have dragged this country into bankruptcy.

I have no problem with Ted Kelly making 500 Million a year in salary I have a problem that he is buying our politicans so they can enrich his company off the backs of the taxpayers.
Ted Kelly Liberty Mutual Corporation was the largest campaign contributor to the Democrats last year. Don't forget about all the new rules & regulations that these insurance companies are starting to impose on our society through these Lobbyists.
That is why he is an ASSHOLE.


SeamusMcFly said:
Then again, I'd hardly put that on Ted Kelly or any other individual executive at LM. He's not the CEO there anymore btw. There is a whole team of execs. board of directors, etc. Throwing your blame at Mr. kelly as an individual is probably misaimed anger. Not so much as your anger at Devil and Mumbles. He is a figurehead however, although his personal income has little to do with what deals he works out for the company. Because, he swings such great deals and is credited as being the driving force behind making a local insurance company into a global juggernaut over the course of 20 years is why they reward him with such high pay.
Capitalism.
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Capitalism? I thought that was supply & demand between two private individuals to determine the price point for a product or service.

I personally could careless what Ted Kelly makes a personal salary from his private company. But please stop using taxpayers money for these billionaires its getting old.

Whigh if his company is so strong & powerful why did our elected officials agree to give Liberty Mutual 50 Million in taxpayers dollars which the backbay already has under 5% vacancy. The city is laying off teachers, police, firemen but we need insurance jobs for the city.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Actually, the just released city budget is calling for hiring teachers, police, firemen.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

TheRifleman said:
Ted Kelly is an asshole for buying our political class then game the entire system and swindle the American Peoples taxmoney to enrich his fellow corporate workers. Yes..... its legal because the people in charge have sold us out.

"Is LibMu a terrible corporate neighbor? Did he personally send agents to your house to kill your young?" No... but deals like these are enslaving our youth into to becoming govt debt slaves because the GOVT officials continue to promote deals that have dragged this country into bankruptcy.

I have no problem with Ted Kelly making 500 Million a year in salary I have a problem that he is buying our politicans so they can enrich his company off the backs of the taxpayers.
Ted Kelly Liberty Mutual Corporation was the largest campaign contributor to the Democrats last year. Don't forget about all the new rules & regulations that these insurance companies are starting to impose on our society through these Lobbyists.
That is why he is an ASSHOLE.




Capitalism? I thought that was supply & demand between two private individuals to determine the price point for a product or service.

I personally could careless what Ted Kelly makes a personal salary from his private company. But please stop using taxpayers money for these billionaires its getting old.

Whigh if his company is so strong & powerful why did our elected officials agree to give Liberty Mutual 50 Million in taxpayers dollars which the backbay already has under 5% vacancy. The city is laying off teachers, police, firemen but we need insurance jobs for the city.
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Riff -- try some remedial real economics:

1) if you are an anonymous supplier to market which is not influenced by any single consumer -- you can indeed have a free clearing market -- an example would be a farmer selling beans or tomatoes during the local growing season -- you will pay what the market price is -- which in turn is set by aggregate of demand and supply

2) if you are a major supplier -- i.e. 3rd largest property and casualty insurer, or a major seller of Hondas -- independent of regulations -- you can not be an anonymous commodity supplier -- you end-up spending heavily on advertising to influence the purchasing decisions of the consumer

3) Local communities feel that their prestige and competitive position with respect to other communities is enhanced by hosting the HQ of major companies
a) they often will "sweeten the pot" even in advance of a "threat to move" just to preclude a bidding war
b) when a "major is in play" -- everybody comes out of the woodwork -- .e.g. Google wanted to expand in Cambridge: Google say; Cambridge plays "hard to get"; Google makes vague reference to deadlines; Boston offers the SPID; Fall River comes out of the woodwork; Cambridge extracts minor concession and folds; Google gets what it wanted

4) Ultimately -- all of it follows the "Real Golden Rule" -- He who has the gold makes the rule -- sometimes by trading gold with another holder of gold
a) if you have no gold -- don't really expect to rule

If you apply those 4 principles properly -- you might still be angry, but you will at least not be surprised
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

TheRifleman said:
Capitalism? I thought that was supply & demand between two private individuals to determine the price point for a product or service.

I personally could careless what Ted Kelly makes a personal salary from his private company. But please stop using taxpayers money for these billionaires its getting old.

Whigh if his company is so strong & powerful why did our elected officials agree to give Liberty Mutual 50 Million in taxpayers dollars which the backbay already has under 5% vacancy. The city is laying off teachers, police, firemen but we need insurance jobs for the city.
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I would think that this tax breaks like this to a company are less sweetheart deals and corporate welfare than what I would call state-level capitalism. In a global economy that, like you said, can have its HQ anywhere and where jobs and incremental revenue are what is in demand and what LM would supply, Boston is competing with Worcester, NYC, and Hong Kong for these jobs. There are certain limitations and advantages to each, but attractive tax structures are what compels them to locate here. Whether the cost of the break outweighs the benefit of the jobs is another argument. But in a global economy, these are the limited devices that cities and states compete with to attract companies.

Now, a development like Fan Pier, I would argue is slightly different. The physical space cannot up and leave. So Fallon must wait for the supply demand dynamic to change. I'd rather see all the money go to Vertex than Fallon in that case. As Fallon made a business decision on a physical place he can't pick up and move- so his business was never up for grabs. Vertex on the other hand could have stayed in Cambridge, went to 128 or anywhere else.

It's a fine and moving line. And I know the obvious argument is to reform the tax code and make the business environment for all, but that is an entirely different animal and requires state and federal officials and politicians falling in line. In the current environment, this is the past of least resistance, and its not unique to Boston, Massachusetts, or the US.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

^^This

The globalization of the world economy has made old school thoughts like Adam Smith's and Keynes obsolete. This is why the US is having trouble adjusting to the rise of developing nations such as China and India.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

KentXie said:
^^This

The globalization of the world economy has made old school thoughts like Adam Smith's and Keynes obsolete. This is why the US is having trouble adjusting to the rise of developing nations such as China and India.
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Kent -- Globalization is term like Outsourcing which means a lot of different things -- for Globalization - it could mean:
1) that the product / service is a commodity and no one can control its production and distribution because the resources are globally available and the expertise is widely known -- that's natural globalization
2) that there are forced distortions to the market such as cartels, extreme tariffs, other restrictions on import or export -- e.g. OPEC
3) that there is a concerted effort by one country or region to "catch-up" by buying technology and /or paying subsidies for local production, temporary tariffs, etc -- these typically don't persist once local markets become active
4) something else?

The US has a bit of all of the above -- we are the most open single market and so everyone wants to play on our mostly level field. However, we do subsidize certain things such as local sugar producers; and we penalize some outside suppliers such as ethanol.

We also harm those companies manufacturing in the US with respect to those US companies manufacturing for overseas markets locally -- e.g. by our high business taxes

China, India and Brazil are just doing what the US did in the late 19th and early 20h Centuries -- rapidly advancing into the developed world -- so far mostly through importing the technology, eventually by developing their own.

However, by doing some restructuring of our tax code and cutting some counter productive regulations the US can resume doing what it does best -- being the most productive, innovative economy leading the world.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

whighlander said:
Kent -- Globalization is term like Outsourcing which means a lot of different things -- for Globalization - it could mean:
1) that the product / service is a commodity and no one can control its production and distribution because the resources are globally available and the expertise is widely known -- that's natural globalization
2) that there are forced distortions to the market such as cartels, extreme tariffs, other restrictions on import or export -- e.g. OPEC
3) that there is a concerted effort by one country or region to "catch-up" by buying technology and /or paying subsidies for local production, temporary tariffs, etc -- these typically don't persist once local markets become active
4) something else?

The US has a bit of all of the above -- we are the most open single market and so everyone wants to play on our mostly level field. However, we do subsidize certain things such as local sugar producers; and we penalize some outside suppliers such as ethanol.

We also harm those companies manufacturing in the US with respect to those US companies manufacturing for overseas markets locally -- e.g. by our high business taxes

China, India and Brazil are just doing what the US did in the late 19th and early 20h Centuries -- rapidly advancing into the developed world -- so far mostly through importing the technology, eventually by developing their own.

However, by doing some restructuring of our tax code and cutting some counter productive regulations the US can resume doing what it does best -- being the most productive, innovative economy leading the world.
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That's true. The current economic school of thought is derived from the fact that services and products can only be produced within a country. The idea of comparative and absolute advantage fueled these thoughts, the idea that countries are willing to trade because there are benefits, even if they do not hold an absolute advantage in production.

However, with the globalization of the economy, this whole idea has evolved. Where one country did not hold an absolute advantage or comparative advantage with its trading partner, that country is no longer restricted to stay in that status quo. For example without technology imported or well managed organization brought to China from the US, efficiency and volume of production in China will be well below current level, reducing its comparative advantage over the US. As services and production are outsourced, business no longer compete locally, they compete globally. None of the current schools of economic thoughts has addressed these issues yet and it's no surprise as it is relatively new.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

KentXie said:
^^This

The globalization of the world economy has made old school thoughts like Adam Smith's and Keynes obsolete. This is why the US is having trouble adjusting to the rise of developing nations such as China and India.
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The reality to your posts is we are heading for Global Currency and Global Govt on the backs of the American Taxpayers.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Now say Liberty Mutual did not get tax breaks and moved out of Boston completely. Wouldn't that mean that the Landlord would just lower his rents to entice another tenant to rent his building? And for the jobs aspect wouldn't another Insurance company just take its place over time as costs would come down?

Basic economics

If you continue to give tax-breaks to companies that actually should not get them how can you call these free markets? How do the competitors compete without a level playing field when it is only one-sided?
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

In some situations yes. But, Liberty Mutual likes to own it's buildings. So they would conceivably be the landlord, and make money off of whomever leased it.

And, if that replacement, lower cost, insurance company takes over, grows, and then wants a new tax subsidized headquarters. Will you then call the Gecko an asshole??
 
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Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

what is now evolving is a "free" market between the actual cities apart of globalization itself. It is not just a factor of rents. The value from the city comes from the surround retail and associated services that will benefit and that Liberty Mutual and its employees desire. Then there is the advantage of having a cluster. A cluster of big banks and financial institutions helped a cluster of hedgefunds grow. A cluster of colleges fostered a cluster of young startups and companies, which helped grow a cluster of VCs, which financed startups that became big players which became big biomed and greentech companies, which has now become a self-replicating environment. I am not saying there is going to be an insurance cluster as dynamic as others, but I am saying that there is value to winning these jobs. Both in a short term economic sense (new restaurants, services, residential) but a long term business environment.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

TheRifleman said:
Now say Liberty Mutual did not get tax breaks and moved out of Boston completely. Wouldn't that mean that the Landlord would just lower his rents to entice another tenant to rent his building? And for the jobs aspect wouldn't another Insurance company just take its place over time as costs would come down?

Basic economics
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Here's some basic economics for you: some things are sticky. Tax breaks can help un-sticky them.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

underground said:
Here's some basic economics for you: some things are sticky. Tax breaks can help un-sticky them.
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Maybe its time to change the tax laws. Giving a company that nets billions a year in profits then our elected officials give tax breaks off the backs of the working class in the city is another story.

Perfect headlines for an Asshole
Billionaire and Insurance Magnate Ted Kelly out maneuvered city officials into giving him 50 Million dollars in tax breaks to make a point that without Liberty Mutual Insurance company, the city of BOSTON would not survive. Chairman Kelly also complained about the amount saying that this is chump change and he typically stashes about 50 million in his sock draw.
I personally feel as a taxpayer, our public officials should not be handing this type of money to these types of Assholes.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Perfect headlines for an Asshole
Billionaire and Insurance Magnate Ted Kelly out maneuvered city officials into giving him 50 Million dollars in tax breaks to make a point that without Liberty Mutual Insurance company, the city of BOSTON would not survive. Chairman Kelly also complained about the amount saying that this is chump change and he typically stashes about 50 million in his sock draw.
I personally feel as a taxpayer, our public officials should not be handing this type of money to these types of Assholes.
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That headline is far too long. Need something snappy and eye catching. Something more like "Brangelina Headed for Splittsville"
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

I just don't get your argument. Tax codes are purposefully designed as policy tools. Do you throw a fit when homeowners get tax breaks? How about married couples? Parents? What about the differing tax levies imposed on residential, industrial, and commercial uses? How about the cap in income taxes or the scaled tax structure?
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Hutchison,

Perfect Example--Fan Pier development

Boston developer Joseph F. Fallon bought the 21-acre Fan Pier site adjacent to McCourt's land from Chicago's Pritzker family for $115 million.

Fallon land cost are at 115 Million
Taxpayers gifts 70 Million
Actual Land cost 45 Million Out of pocket

So my point is when has it become the job of the taxpayers to enrich private developers or private companys through tax incentives?
That is not Capitalism its socialism. The politicans are socializing the losses to the taxpayers but privatizing the profits to enrich their friends.
That is not FREE MARKETS anymore.

Liberty Mutual a similar situation.

When you talk about married couples, residential real estate those types of tax codes are for everybody to follow those rules. Those two situations above are stealing money.
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

Wouldn't a more accurate description of socialism be taking from fallon and Liberty Mutual and giving it to the taxpayers?
 
Re: Liberty Mutual plans major Boston expansion

choo said:
Wouldn't a more accurate description of socialism be taking from fallon and Liberty Mutual and giving it to the taxpayers?
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Sign me up for Socialism if that's the case....
 
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