Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

[Arlington]

Long term trends favor leisure markets.
Short term favors covid hotspot arbitrage

I can easily see that by winter, Florida will have subsided as they move back outdoors.

I was also reading about New Yorkers buying florida real estate so they can quarantine there this winter.

Long term, an unknown % of employer-paid travel is going to be replaced by video
Short term, a large % of employer-paid travel has been replaced by video

I'm not saying it is a direct replacement ("I'll zoom instead of going"), but clearly the world has changed for airlines, similar to how
* units of first class mail is down by half since 2000 (blame email & ebills)
* dollars of paper checks is down by half since 2000 (switch to cards & EFTs)

So I'm thinking the long-term trend for being there favors leisure or "bleisure" (today's word of the day)

 

[jass]

Jetblue dropping EWR-Boston for September, leaving only United 2x a day.

And I was so excited it was going to be a 3 airline route with the Delta announcement last year. Delta also pulled the route. United sucks

 

[jass]

Logan-Adjacent. Jetblue continues to throw out darts and see what sticks.

 

[mass88]

At this rate, I'd be curious to see if they would ever attempt a flight to Los Angeles from Providence.

 

[Arlington]

At this rate, I'd be curious to see if they would ever attempt a flight to Los Angeles from Providence.

Connecticut has much better synergies for JetBlue: NYC Media market, NYC incomes, & a reverse commute for elites along the Metro North RR.

 

[awood91]

Connecticut has much better synergies for JetBlue: NYC Media market, NYC incomes, & a reverse commute for elites along the Metro North RR.

This is would be true if New Haven had an airport and Jetblue was starting more flights from there, but their plan is to add capacity from Hartford, which IMO is not especially intertwined with NYC, at all.

 

[Massachoicetts]

Flew through Logan Friday and Sunday, it was relatively busy compared to what I have been seeing. Compared to EWR, LGA, GSO... CLT is always busy.

But pleasantly surprised to see Logan as busy as it was. Flying through Logan again tomorrow on AA and hope to see it as busy it has been.

 

[Arlington]

This is would be true if New Haven had an airport and Jetblue was starting more flights from there, but their plan is to add capacity from Hartford, which IMO is not especially intertwined with NYC, at all.

Hartford is a good "reverse commute" from Coastal and MNRR CT. If you live in CT and have a morning flight from LGA/HPN , you'll be in "rush direction" traffic getting there, versus a less-rushy trip in/around Hartford

 

[Arlington]

I've heard (anectdotally) that UA at ORD is also a zoo these days, with long layovers between flights driving crowding in the airport.

 

[JeffDowntown]

I've heard (anectdotally) that UA at ORD is also a zoo these days, with long layovers between flights driving crowding in the airport.

I am not sure it is possible to tell the difference from pre-COVID. UA at ORD has been a zoo for years, with nowhere near enough seating/gate space for passengers waiting. Now it is fewer passengers, but longer waits/connection times, so same poor customer service.

 

[Stlin]

I am not sure it is possible to tell the difference from pre-COVID. UA at ORD has been a zoo for years, with nowhere near enough seating/gate space for passengers waiting. Now it is fewer passengers, but longer waits/connection times, so same poor customer service.

Which is mostly a consequence of the massive boom in air travel and densities borne out since the 70s and 80s, when T1, Concourses B&C were built. Besides, in that era airports were bus stations, without much in the way of amenities or security, so there just wasn't that many competing uses of the space. Holdrooms, (gate waiting areas) are, even today, designed for a capacity of 80% of the mean aircraft assigned, as it assumed that at least 20% of passengers will either be somewhere else in the airport, or an unsold seat.

That said, ORD was supposed to be undergoing a massive replacement of Terminal 2, creating the "O'Hare Global Terminal". The main terminal building looks like it's going to be the most stunning terminal in the US, and legitimately of a global standard. The 6 pointed Star skylight, inspired by the city flag of chicago, repeated in each terminal atrium is inspired. I only regret there isn't a third satellite terminal for the fourth star, but the taxiway reconfiguration will create the room needed for both this project and future satellites, and would accomodate reconstruction and integration of T1 B&C replacement.

See this Dezeen article for more pics. Admittedly, the Satellite terminals seem far more pedestrian, but I think those renders are from an earlier competing proposal. but given how well this project integrates Terminals 1 and 3, 1 at C in particular, I'm very excited.
No idea how much this was impacted by Covids thrashing of air travel though. (Is there a thread for airports generally, beyond Logan?)

 

[mass88]

See this Dezeen article for more pics. Admittedly, the Satellite terminals seem far more pedestrian, but I think those renders are from an earlier competing proposal. but given how well this project integrates Terminals 1 and 3, 1 at C in particular, I'm very excited.
No idea how much this was impacted by Covids thrashing of air travel though. (Is there a thread for airports generally, beyond Logan?)

That looks really nice. It's too bad Massport didn't get more drastic with Logan and completely rebuild whole terminals, instead of portions. Come 2022, half of terminal E will be brand new, high ceilings, wide concourses while the other half will feel drab in comparison.

 

[Stlin]

That looks really nice. It's too bad Massport didn't get more drastic with Logan and completely rebuild whole terminals, instead of portions. Come 2022, half of terminal E will be brand new, high ceilings, wide concourses while the other half will feel drab in comparison.

I mean, new E isn't bad, though. It adds and replaces existing E capabilities, like CBP etc so you actually have the option to demolish the old terminal building one day. BOS doesn't *need* transformative reconfiguration as much as some other airports; cough cough, Newark*. but it would never hurt. But it's so space constrained, any full scale reconfiguration is going to be as complex as that happening at LGA, and as expensive. That said, the same space constraints lends itself to needing to most efficiently utilize your footprint. Hrm. I'll play around with some massings when I get some spare time.

* Newark needs reconstructing, but not in the way that PANYNJ is going about it. They're building a A replacement, but it's both one of the least imaginative designs I've ever seen, and doesn't take into account future airport configuration. In fact, as far as I can tell, EWR is the only major airport PANYNJ didn't publish a master plan "vison" for. Instead, the new Terminal is configured and sited in such a way that I don't understand how they intend to either integrate into the existing terminals or expand on it. Compare JFK vision (not perfect, but a hell of a lot better than existing scattershot) and new LaGuardia, to what's being built at Newark.

JFK

LGA

Newark.

It's nice, clean, modern... And Thoroughly lacking any sense of imagination or building to a goal. I consider it foolhardy beyond belief to build a 3 billion dollar terminal without a master plan; the only provision for the future they've included is maybe adding legs out the sides for 12 more gates. They're not even finishing the job of demolishing Terminal A; the headhouse is to remain intact. Compare this to the impractical, political non starter, but very forward looking RPA plan.

The PA could have done so much better, but it is the PANYNJ - notoriously disfunctional.

 

[millerm277]

* Newark needs reconstructing, but not in the way that PANYNJ is going about it. They're building a A replacement, but it's both one of the least imaginative designs I've ever seen, and doesn't take into account future airport configuration. In fact, as far as I can tell, EWR is the only major airport PANYNJ didn't publish a master plan "vison" for. Instead, the new Terminal is configured and sited in such a way that I don't understand how they intend to either integrate into the existing terminals or expand on it. Compare JFK vision (not perfect, but a hell of a lot better than existing scattershot) and new LaGuardia, to what's being built at Newark.

Terminal B + C are in reasonable shape, and integration = they're replacing the Airtrain to string it all together and calling it a day.

That RPA plan doesn't fit within the existing site and would be throwing aircraft noise at downtown Elizabeth and likely the Ironbound section of Newark.

 

[Stlin]

Terminal B + C are in reasonable shape, and integration = they're replacing the Airtrain to string it all together and calling it a day.

That RPA plan doesn't fit within the existing site and would be throwing aircraft noise at downtown Elizabeth and likely the Ironbound section of Newark.

Yea... That's exactly my point though. EWR, being the redheaded stepsister of the NYC airport trio, is getting phoned in design. I agree the RPA plan is a non starter, but the PA needs something *like* it, properly engineered and considered, reflecting economic and environmental sensibilities to guide future development. Every terminal will need rebuilding by ~2035; Terminal B is the exact same era and construction as Terminal A, only with minorish renovations, and is widely considered one of the worst terminals in the developed world. Terminal C is from the mid 80s, and while it's early 2000s renovation will hold for another 10-15 years, it shows its age anywhere outside C3. Just try walking from C1 to C2; that hallway gives you no more than 15ft between the back edge of TSA to the windows in spots. Either way, the new Terminal One is a bit of a dog.

 

[millerm277]

Yea... That's exactly my point though. EWR, being the redheaded stepsister of the NYC airport trio, is getting phoned in design. I agree the RPA plan is a non starter, but the PA needs something *like* it, properly engineered and considered, reflecting economic and environmental sensibilities to guide future development. Every terminal will need rebuilding by ~2035; Terminal B is the exact same era and construction as Terminal A, only with minorish renovations, and is widely considered one of the worst terminals in the developed world. Terminal C is from the mid 80s, and while it's early 2000s renovation will hold for another 10-15 years, it shows its age anywhere outside C3. Just try walking from C1 to C2; that hallway gives you no more than 15ft between the back edge of TSA to the windows in spots. Either way, the new Terminal One is a bit of a dog.

Actually, upon further research, they're apparently doing some of that.

The $35m here was approved last fall and added to the current 10 year PANYNJ Capital Plan:

https://corpinfo.panynj.gov/files/uploads/documents/board-meeting-information/board-committee-meeting-presentations/CPEAM_-_EWR_Terminal_2_-_Public_Session.pdf

 

[Stlin]

Actually, upon further research, they're apparently doing some of that.

The $35m here was approved last fall and added to the current 10 year PANYNJ Capital Plan:

https://corpinfo.panynj.gov/files/uploads/documents/board-meeting-information/board-committee-meeting-presentations/CPEAM_-_EWR_Terminal_2_-_Public_Session.pdf

Which is good, but I will maintain that the fact they're spending $6 Million on vision *after* building a new $2.7 Billion dollar terminal was putting the cart in front of the horse. Now, EWR Vision has to accomodate Terminal One, not the other way around.

 

[mass88]

JetBlue is suspending service to San Jose, Burbank and Baltimore/Washington. They're also suspending service to Worcester too.

 

[atlantaden]

JetBlue is suspending service to San Jose, Burbank and Baltimore/Washington. They're also suspending service to Worcester too.

This thread used to be one of my favorites, so many flights being added by so many airlines, both domestic, but especially foreign flag carriers. Covid changed all that in an instant. With the new construction threads, things are mostly back, but this thread, and the good news what was once happening, will probably take several years for things to return to normal for the airlines, and Logan. Sad.

 

[mass88]

This thread used to be one of my favorites, so many flights being added by so many airlines, both domestic, but especially foreign flag carriers. Covid changed all that in an instant. With the new construction threads, things are mostly back, but this thread, and the good news what was once happening, will probably take several years for things to return to normal for the airlines, and Logan. Sad.

Massport is projecting (as of their June board meeting) Q2 2022 as when the airport will get back to pre-COVID numbers, at least hit 85%+ of pre-COVID numbers. The same could be said for a large number of airports in this country. Logan has been on a big roll the last 9 years. Give it time, in a few years when the B to connector is done, all of the terminal roadway work is done, the terminal C canopy of done and the first phase of the terminal E expansion is done, the airport will start chugging a long again.

Over on airliners.net, there's a user who will post weekly the OAG scheduling update. The last few months have been insane to see all of the service cuts, suspensions and delays across the board. Massive.

Speaking of delays, American is delaying the launch of their London - Heathrow service until Spring.