underground
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Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium | Malden
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
I am huge fan of ballparks, spent countless hours researching, viewing pictures, the works.
However I just don't have a solid feeling about the chances of success of an independent minor league team in what is a pretty saturated market for minor league baseball.
Quick List (maybe missing a few)
AAA: Pawtucket Red Sox (Pawtucket R.I.)
AA: Portland Sea Dogs (Portland, ME) New Hampshire Fisher Cats (Manchester, NH)
A: Lowell Spinners, (Lowell Ma) Burlington Lake Monsters (Burlington, VT)
Independent
Brockton Rox (Brockton, Ma)
Pittsfield Colonials (Pittsfield Ma)
Worcester Tornadoes (Worcester, MA)
Then the entire Cape League (which is seen as the premier league for college players, many of whom end up in the majors. In 2008 over 208 mlb players were Cape League alumni).
Also Independent teams have routinely failed to make a go in Nashua Holman Stadium. (which is a little gem, if there are any other ballpark junkies, http://www.breadloaf.com/holman.html)
I hope this will work well for Malden, but I just dont see a major untapped market for independent baseball.
I am huge fan of ballparks, spent countless hours researching, viewing pictures, the works.
However I just don't have a solid feeling about the chances of success of an independent minor league team in what is a pretty saturated market for minor league baseball.
Quick List (maybe missing a few)
AAA: Pawtucket Red Sox (Pawtucket R.I.)
AA: Portland Sea Dogs (Portland, ME) New Hampshire Fisher Cats (Manchester, NH)
A: Lowell Spinners, (Lowell Ma) Burlington Lake Monsters (Burlington, VT)
Independent
Brockton Rox (Brockton, Ma)
Pittsfield Colonials (Pittsfield Ma)
Worcester Tornadoes (Worcester, MA)
Then the entire Cape League (which is seen as the premier league for college players, many of whom end up in the majors. In 2008 over 208 mlb players were Cape League alumni).
Also Independent teams have routinely failed to make a go in Nashua Holman Stadium. (which is a little gem, if there are any other ballpark junkies, http://www.breadloaf.com/holman.html)
I hope this will work well for Malden, but I just dont see a major untapped market for independent baseball.
underground
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
None of those is on a rapid transit line though, and most are an hour plus drive from Boston. I'm not saying it will or won't work, but the metrics for success are different here.
None of those is on a rapid transit line though, and most are an hour plus drive from Boston. I'm not saying it will or won't work, but the metrics for success are different here.
Cliff Clavin
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
I agree. ^
I'd have little to no interest in heading up to Lowell or down to Brockton after work, but would certainly hop on the train and head to Malden for some beer and baseball.
I agree. ^
I'd have little to no interest in heading up to Lowell or down to Brockton after work, but would certainly hop on the train and head to Malden for some beer and baseball.
HenryAlan
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
This is exactly the point. I used to think about taking my kids to a Rox game, but Brockton is too remote. Malden isn't. Taken in a vacuum it might not look too different from Brockton. But the difference is in the hundreds of thousands of people on the 'T who might enjoy a less expensive baseball option.
This is exactly the point. I used to think about taking my kids to a Rox game, but Brockton is too remote. Malden isn't. Taken in a vacuum it might not look too different from Brockton. But the difference is in the hundreds of thousands of people on the 'T who might enjoy a less expensive baseball option.
SeamusMcFly
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
It always makes me laugh (being from Brockton) to hear how remote Brockton is at 20 miles away.
In a Bostonian view, it is. It's a 20-30 minute car ride with no traffic, and when available it's a 35 minute train ride.
Not that I like LA, but I always compared driving from LAX to Downtown LA as being equivalent (or even further) than driving from Brockton to Downtown Boston.
The Rox and the stadium are failures for a number of reasons, but one of them is definitely location, and lack of wanting to travel there. But, when it appears to be nothing more than a Cranberry League game, there is no reason for people to head down. There's 100,000 people within 5-10 miles of the place, you'd think 5,000 a night wouldn't be too tough.
People love baseball, they like being at the park with a beer and a dog, and not paying a bunch to do it. But, they also want a good product on the field. You'd never know there was a good product in Brockton, unless you go, but why go if you don't know there is a good product.... this is where marketing comes in. And, not always in the form of gimmicks like Oil Can Boyd (who I dearly wanted to go see), the Spaecman, or Bill Buckner, but real reasons.
I feel bad, because I've wanted to go to a game for so long, and I can walk to the stadium if I feel like it.
There is also the negativity associated with Brockton, as well as Malden. Malden may not get the headlines and instill fear in peoplethe same way that a night in Brockton seems to for some people. However irrational, perception is everything.
Here's hoping it works out better, has a better plan, and investors who actually stick with it, and the city and its taxpayers don't get stuck holding the bill like we are down in Brockton.
It always makes me laugh (being from Brockton) to hear how remote Brockton is at 20 miles away.
In a Bostonian view, it is. It's a 20-30 minute car ride with no traffic, and when available it's a 35 minute train ride.
Not that I like LA, but I always compared driving from LAX to Downtown LA as being equivalent (or even further) than driving from Brockton to Downtown Boston.
The Rox and the stadium are failures for a number of reasons, but one of them is definitely location, and lack of wanting to travel there. But, when it appears to be nothing more than a Cranberry League game, there is no reason for people to head down. There's 100,000 people within 5-10 miles of the place, you'd think 5,000 a night wouldn't be too tough.
People love baseball, they like being at the park with a beer and a dog, and not paying a bunch to do it. But, they also want a good product on the field. You'd never know there was a good product in Brockton, unless you go, but why go if you don't know there is a good product.... this is where marketing comes in. And, not always in the form of gimmicks like Oil Can Boyd (who I dearly wanted to go see), the Spaecman, or Bill Buckner, but real reasons.
I feel bad, because I've wanted to go to a game for so long, and I can walk to the stadium if I feel like it.
There is also the negativity associated with Brockton, as well as Malden. Malden may not get the headlines and instill fear in peoplethe same way that a night in Brockton seems to for some people. However irrational, perception is everything.
Here's hoping it works out better, has a better plan, and investors who actually stick with it, and the city and its taxpayers don't get stuck holding the bill like we are down in Brockton.
Ron Newman
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
The Lowell Spinners almost always sell out their games. The Red Sox affiliation probably helps.
The Lowell Spinners almost always sell out their games. The Red Sox affiliation probably helps.
Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
"It's a 20-30 minute car ride with no traffic, and when available it's a 35 minute train ride."
You nailed it righ tthere. All this money spent on CR, and the scheduling seems focused on traditional work/rush hour service.
Does me no good if I wanna go somewhere at off-peak hours. What a waste.
"It's a 20-30 minute car ride with no traffic, and when available it's a 35 minute train ride."
You nailed it righ tthere. All this money spent on CR, and the scheduling seems focused on traditional work/rush hour service.
Does me no good if I wanna go somewhere at off-peak hours. What a waste.
SeamusMcFly
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
One of my major gripes about the rail, and how it was supposed to revitilize the downtown area of Brockton. Not, when they only push it as ease of access to Boston, and keeps the city a feeder "suburb" to Boston. It is supposed to work both ways, and if the area were a functioning downtown, drew people to a stadium, and some other things, then there is leverage for more rail service.
But, the area remains dead, with zero leadership and vision in town, and the rail availability is only going to decrease in the new schedule from the MBTA.
Off your topic, which is the CR costing taxpayers a ton of money and providing little benefit. My side is the communities served not holding up their end of the bargain, and just expecting the rail line to just fix everything, and business and residents will flock.
One of my major gripes about the rail, and how it was supposed to revitilize the downtown area of Brockton. Not, when they only push it as ease of access to Boston, and keeps the city a feeder "suburb" to Boston. It is supposed to work both ways, and if the area were a functioning downtown, drew people to a stadium, and some other things, then there is leverage for more rail service.
But, the area remains dead, with zero leadership and vision in town, and the rail availability is only going to decrease in the new schedule from the MBTA.
Off your topic, which is the CR costing taxpayers a ton of money and providing little benefit. My side is the communities served not holding up their end of the bargain, and just expecting the rail line to just fix everything, and business and residents will flock.
Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
Part of downtown Brockton's litany of problems is the fact that the city has two other commuter rail stops in urban residential neighborhoods outside of downtown. Both within 2 miles or less of downtown. They essentially act as a bypass for much of the traffic that would otherwise utilize the downtown station (and presumably, the amenities there).
In my experience (and it's fairly limited so take this with a grain of salt), downtown Brockton has limited potential anyway. When you look at the cities that are have turned around or are turning around, they all have certain things going for them that Brockton doesn't. Lowell has the canals and some great urban bones as well as excellent architecture. Manchester NH is on the periphery of the Boston metro and acts as a regional center. It also has good urban bones an some good architecture. New Bedford is also on the periphery of the Boston area (though not nearly as much of a regional center as Manch) and has a very active commercial and recreational port, charming downtown area and a good coastal location. Brockton has none of that. It doesn't have nice natural features, or particularly wonderful architecture downtown (with a handfull of exceptions). It's not a regional center, and unlike Quincy (or hopefully Lynn at some point) it's a little too far for rapid transit service to turn it into a viable urban suburb.
I certainly agree that the "fear" element is entirely overblown in just about all of the smaller cities in MA. Myths perpetuated by the suburbanites nearby and the people living in the city who have never left (not to mention, a much higher ratio of negative publicity to positive publicity). At the same time, there's little to draw someone to one of these place either. Even the attractions that Brockton does have are outside of downtown and very much oriented to those arriving by car from Route 24. Lowell's stadium and arena are within walking distance to downtown.
Blame mismanagement, misinformation, and decades of poor planning if you want. All of those things certainly contribute to the problem. However, as an urban area, Brockton fails on many levels and I have a hard times seeing much potential there (and I generally have an affection for down on their luck cities). Brockton will always be necessary from a services point of view (hospitals, fire, police, other social services) and does provide affordable living alternatives to Boston. However, the urban aspect of it is really fading away. The city's "life" seems to be moving toward the periphery along Route 24.
On commuter rail. More frequent service could help Brockton a little; but I'd consider eliminating the Campello and Montello stops altogether. Doing so may even spark a little more life into Main St. Not only that, but cutting out some stops could increase the speed of the route which would help speed the entire trip up. A few other routes could benefit from that type of treatment.
Part of downtown Brockton's litany of problems is the fact that the city has two other commuter rail stops in urban residential neighborhoods outside of downtown. Both within 2 miles or less of downtown. They essentially act as a bypass for much of the traffic that would otherwise utilize the downtown station (and presumably, the amenities there).
In my experience (and it's fairly limited so take this with a grain of salt), downtown Brockton has limited potential anyway. When you look at the cities that are have turned around or are turning around, they all have certain things going for them that Brockton doesn't. Lowell has the canals and some great urban bones as well as excellent architecture. Manchester NH is on the periphery of the Boston metro and acts as a regional center. It also has good urban bones an some good architecture. New Bedford is also on the periphery of the Boston area (though not nearly as much of a regional center as Manch) and has a very active commercial and recreational port, charming downtown area and a good coastal location. Brockton has none of that. It doesn't have nice natural features, or particularly wonderful architecture downtown (with a handfull of exceptions). It's not a regional center, and unlike Quincy (or hopefully Lynn at some point) it's a little too far for rapid transit service to turn it into a viable urban suburb.
I certainly agree that the "fear" element is entirely overblown in just about all of the smaller cities in MA. Myths perpetuated by the suburbanites nearby and the people living in the city who have never left (not to mention, a much higher ratio of negative publicity to positive publicity). At the same time, there's little to draw someone to one of these place either. Even the attractions that Brockton does have are outside of downtown and very much oriented to those arriving by car from Route 24. Lowell's stadium and arena are within walking distance to downtown.
Blame mismanagement, misinformation, and decades of poor planning if you want. All of those things certainly contribute to the problem. However, as an urban area, Brockton fails on many levels and I have a hard times seeing much potential there (and I generally have an affection for down on their luck cities). Brockton will always be necessary from a services point of view (hospitals, fire, police, other social services) and does provide affordable living alternatives to Boston. However, the urban aspect of it is really fading away. The city's "life" seems to be moving toward the periphery along Route 24.
On commuter rail. More frequent service could help Brockton a little; but I'd consider eliminating the Campello and Montello stops altogether. Doing so may even spark a little more life into Main St. Not only that, but cutting out some stops could increase the speed of the route which would help speed the entire trip up. A few other routes could benefit from that type of treatment.
whighlander
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
Fox -- you are coming at it from the wrong perspective -- before you can have anyone want to flow outward to a Brockton or a Malden or Lynn -- the place has to stabilize it self- - it has to make itself attractive as a place to live for people with some free money
They won't come unless the schools are good and the crime is under control
Malden is ahead of the game in that it already functions as a suburb where some people with middle-class family lifestyles already live -- its downtown is not particularly successful-- but that is not uncommon in suburbs -- even the Lexington downtown has some vacant store fronts and many too many banks
On the smaller question of the minor league ball park -- I think its a loser -- unless the locally accessible by walking / short drive -- community wants to / needs to come to games the presence or absence of the T is not going to make much of a difference
Even at Fenway -- most of the people don't come by the T -- indeed Fenway would not be successfully if it depended on the T for transportation -- there isn't sufficient capacity of on the Green Line to support it -- there have to be people walking and driving to Red Sox games to make Fenway work.
Malden's stadium would be about 1/3 the size of Fenway -- but there is nothing like 1/3 the population within a short distance -- and if someone is to drive -- they will go to Lowell to see near-to-major league players or to Pawtucket to see rehabbing major league players or to the Cape League
Try Soccer!
Fox -- you are coming at it from the wrong perspective -- before you can have anyone want to flow outward to a Brockton or a Malden or Lynn -- the place has to stabilize it self- - it has to make itself attractive as a place to live for people with some free money
They won't come unless the schools are good and the crime is under control
Malden is ahead of the game in that it already functions as a suburb where some people with middle-class family lifestyles already live -- its downtown is not particularly successful-- but that is not uncommon in suburbs -- even the Lexington downtown has some vacant store fronts and many too many banks
On the smaller question of the minor league ball park -- I think its a loser -- unless the locally accessible by walking / short drive -- community wants to / needs to come to games the presence or absence of the T is not going to make much of a difference
Even at Fenway -- most of the people don't come by the T -- indeed Fenway would not be successfully if it depended on the T for transportation -- there isn't sufficient capacity of on the Green Line to support it -- there have to be people walking and driving to Red Sox games to make Fenway work.
Malden's stadium would be about 1/3 the size of Fenway -- but there is nothing like 1/3 the population within a short distance -- and if someone is to drive -- they will go to Lowell to see near-to-major league players or to Pawtucket to see rehabbing major league players or to the Cape League
Try Soccer!
SeamusMcFly
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
The good news is, Brockton has a great (amazingly great considering) school system which continually earns national recognition.
I'm going to call BS on the Fenway argument however, and not because I would never in a million years drive to a game. But the walking and T using crowd make up a huge portion of attendees. And, if regular JOe's could still afford tickets, many more would take public transport. But, since only corporations and should be illegal scalpers such as Ace Ticket now have all the tickets, that's not happening.
I take the GReen line or walk to every Sox game I've ever gone to over the last 24 years, and the trains are always mobbed. 2 green line stops and a commuter rail stop, plus buses and those walking from Boylston from dinner could fill it everytime without driving.
The good news is, Brockton has a great (amazingly great considering) school system which continually earns national recognition.
I'm going to call BS on the Fenway argument however, and not because I would never in a million years drive to a game. But the walking and T using crowd make up a huge portion of attendees. And, if regular JOe's could still afford tickets, many more would take public transport. But, since only corporations and should be illegal scalpers such as Ace Ticket now have all the tickets, that's not happening.
I take the GReen line or walk to every Sox game I've ever gone to over the last 24 years, and the trains are always mobbed. 2 green line stops and a commuter rail stop, plus buses and those walking from Boylston from dinner could fill it everytime without driving.
Cliff Clavin
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
Malden's stadium cap (6k) would be 1/6th that of Fenway, and even if they averaged 2,000 per game, it would be a success. Nobody expects 10,000 people to turn out for an independent league ballgame.
Malden's stadium cap (6k) would be 1/6th that of Fenway, and even if they averaged 2,000 per game, it would be a success. Nobody expects 10,000 people to turn out for an independent league ballgame.
Ron Newman
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
6,000 is pretty optimistic for an independent league game -- it presumes that the team will be as popular as the St. Paul (Minnesota) Saints.
6,000 is pretty optimistic for an independent league game -- it presumes that the team will be as popular as the St. Paul (Minnesota) Saints.
Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
I'm not sure anything you ever write in the future will ever be taken seriously by me again, after reading what I'm sure is an honest and earnest sentence.
East Fenway has Hynes, Symphony, Northeastern and Museum. Fenway West (or Fenway proper) has Northeastern, Museum, Longwood Medical, Longwood, Fenway, St Mary's and Kenmore within 7-10 minutes walk.
Plus the bus routes.
I'm not sure anything you ever write in the future will ever be taken seriously by me again, after reading what I'm sure is an honest and earnest sentence.
East Fenway has Hynes, Symphony, Northeastern and Museum. Fenway West (or Fenway proper) has Northeastern, Museum, Longwood Medical, Longwood, Fenway, St Mary's and Kenmore within 7-10 minutes walk.
Plus the bus routes.
SeamusMcFly
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
I would assume they would be happy as stated with 2-3k for games, but with the ability to hold more for other events and promotions.
For the money difference it would make no sense to build to 2-3k and have to turn people away when the demand is there.
I would assume they would be happy as stated with 2-3k for games, but with the ability to hold more for other events and promotions.
For the money difference it would make no sense to build to 2-3k and have to turn people away when the demand is there.
Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
I always take the 55 from Park Street to Fenway for games. Not only does it get you closest to the gates (at least for the bleachers), it also is NEVER crowded on game days.
I always take the 55 from Park Street to Fenway for games. Not only does it get you closest to the gates (at least for the bleachers), it also is NEVER crowded on game days.
Ron Newman
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
If I don't bike to Fenway Park, I walk over to Mass. Ave after the game to get the #1 bus back to Cambridge, rather than deal with the Green Line crush.
The #55 can't be much fun coming back from the game, given the route it has to take through the Fenway crowds.
If I don't bike to Fenway Park, I walk over to Mass. Ave after the game to get the #1 bus back to Cambridge, rather than deal with the Green Line crush.
The #55 can't be much fun coming back from the game, given the route it has to take through the Fenway crowds.
whighlander
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Re: Malden Minor League Baseball Stadium
BBf -- If the goal is to deliver 35,000 plus people in about 1 hour to the vicinity of Fenway Park - you can not do it if you depend on the Green Line at Kenmore alone
Current use of Kenmore is an average of 8,653 passengers daily
My statement was somewhat misinterpreted because I didn't adequaely define the symbol T -- I had intended it to represent the Green Line and the crowd going to/from Kenmore station. However, you can add people walking from several of the local stations on the Green Line - it doesn't really help. We know how many trains can come and go at Kenmore in one hour and we know how many people can be carried on a train -- when you do the math -- you will fall substantially short. That's part of the reason why the parking lots in the vicinity fill-up and charge outrageous rates.
My overall point was that Fenway Park was able to be filled because there were people who took the T, Buses and even the CR -- but that there were a lot who walked and drove as well -- Malden doesn't have the walk-up crowd, the current T capacity overall to Malden Center is not large and the people who would have to drive can drive somewhere else as easily
BBf -- If the goal is to deliver 35,000 plus people in about 1 hour to the vicinity of Fenway Park - you can not do it if you depend on the Green Line at Kenmore alone
Current use of Kenmore is an average of 8,653 passengers daily
My statement was somewhat misinterpreted because I didn't adequaely define the symbol T -- I had intended it to represent the Green Line and the crowd going to/from Kenmore station. However, you can add people walking from several of the local stations on the Green Line - it doesn't really help. We know how many trains can come and go at Kenmore in one hour and we know how many people can be carried on a train -- when you do the math -- you will fall substantially short. That's part of the reason why the parking lots in the vicinity fill-up and charge outrageous rates.
My overall point was that Fenway Park was able to be filled because there were people who took the T, Buses and even the CR -- but that there were a lot who walked and drove as well -- Malden doesn't have the walk-up crowd, the current T capacity overall to Malden Center is not large and the people who would have to drive can drive somewhere else as easily