Manchester Infill & Small Developments

manchsouthernelm-1.jpg


OK, if you can see the picture clearly, I went to some meeting in Manch since I want to open my store there. And this is what I heard about the following.

-Market basket, the style will be brick, something different from regular MB's.
-Elliot at River's Edge complete in April of next year I think.
-MB done and open in March.
-Elliot at River's Edge II is not correct, it should say River's Edge II. No idea what that will be, could be anything, just going to be redeveloped with something big. Must complete Elliot first.
-Manchester Transit Authority land will be purchased when Manchester can find a better place to put all the buses. This doe snot have any plans for development yet.
-The park along Elliot at River's Edge will be public and open to the city via under queen bridge there or by the Elliot development.
-The river edge condos have broken ground again and are being built. That is not on the map, left of merchant auto stadium.

And, http://www.nhia.edu/lowell/
Shows a nice picture of the new and impressive dorm for NHIA. I drove by, no camera, but looks cool and def. somewhere I would want to live for school.
 
Thanks for the image--the city doesn't make it very easy to find that sort of stuff online--and the report from the meeting. I'm glad they're working on the area, but the Market Basket really kills me. That they would give one of the largest plots of land downtown, let alone one in such a crucial location, is so short-sighted and will be a huge loss in the long run. I don't want to repeat too much of what I've already said about that, but it's just such a shame. There's no reason a supermarket couldn't be built on the same site as part of a larger redevelopment scheme. I suppose there's always a chance that the parking lot along Elm Street could be replaced with a parking garage with some retail component at street level (the current building and parking lot is about a story below grade at Elm), but the chance for an intermodal facility here is slipping away if it's not already gone. Furthermore, once the city relinquishes ownership of the parcel, it will not be redeveloped further until the land becomes more valuable to MB, which could be never.

As far as the other points, I am glad to hear that construction has resumed on the Rivers Edge condo project, and the Elliot down there is going to be big. What does the green shading?

I think it's a shame that more than a decade after they were conceived, very little has come of the Gaslight and Warehouse districts. The Gaslight, especially, has huge potential for some great bars, restaurants, shops, artists studios, etc. I like the idea of it remaining a bit rough around the edges, so it can maintain some of the interesting mix of uses going on there now, but replacing the warehouses and dive bars with something more like retail and a brewpub. The city needs to step up its part there and give building owners incentives to transfer the neighborhood.

The Warehouse district, on the other hand, is not going to get a ton of help from the Market Basket in my mind. It may get more exposure from people than it does now, but the Market Basket is really set up on a suburban model, so I doubt you'll see much crossover from grocery shoppers. It's also going to destroy any chance to make a nice street wall on that side of Elm Street. I hate to say it, and I hope I'm wrong, but if I understand the Market Basket plan correctly, I really think it's going to kill any movement to redevelop the area down there. I know the city doesn't think that, but unless they want a bunch of Walgreen's and stuff down there, it's the exact wrong site plan.

Assuming, as I am, that it's too late to change course here, the city should do what it can to redevelop South Elm, but focus more on connecting the Millyard with Elm Street, redeveloping Manchester Street, encouraging redevelopment and investment in the neighborhoods, and improving public and alternative transportation options.
 
The mayor is politically accountable. Does he appoint the planners or how does that work? If they are directly under his supervision, that might explain the lack of an urban vision, as the city "races to the bottom" (accepting any and all development to lower taxes) in this tight economy.
 
Well hold on a bit.

Yes the MB is going to ruin the chance to continue the wall, but it will drive customers onto the street. The warehouse district is actually where I would like to set up my shop. Hopefully it does get redeveloped. There have been some plans and concepts in the past. But this is up to the owners.

The MB is going to be below the st. level, but will have staircase that will also act as the signage, and promote walkers. There will be a huge parking lot however. But the facade will be brick and not standard MB style. I am actually a bit interested.

The green is what is owned by Anagnost Development Inc. minus the current Manch transit site. That is future.

Now I understand what you are saying about the MB attracting bigger retail, but IMO I think this is good. Elliot is wonderful. What I would like to see is the following...

The National grid area somehow hidden (I have no idea, but guessing that is permanent) from Elm. St., River's Edge II possibly a large high rise, well not large, but high rise, with mixed retail along st. and office on top with a well placed parking garage open to the public at a cost. Manch transit authority there was talk about expanding the Elliot, this would work for me. Somewhere get a movie theater in there. Now since we are all form NE I picture something like that proposed (maybe now built) Freeport movie theatre or possibly like the AMC on the common in Boston and build it into the large building at River's Edge II. This will diversify the traffic. People to retail, youngins with disposable money to the theatre and more business in the area with the offices. Like I said MB works for me. Finish those condos and get a bridge for walkers across river (I think already exists) and another bridge to Elm st over rails. The warehouse district I see being basically a continuation of what is on Elm now, just take those buildings and renovate them into retail. Many have decent parking. Do the same along Willow st. and continue up Willow st. with renovations (haha, his would be cool but no time soon) and then once Willow st. starts to turn up there is some mill now, used by a company, convert that to residential, and make more high rise buildings there for higher end condos and apartments. Connect Willow to Elm with nice walk ways and bridges over the old rail (now swampy rusty rail).

Well that is my thoughts. And another random thought I had, Zoos are not as popular (i like animals, which is why I am starting the aquarium store) but it would be cool to have a zoo in NH. Maybe not Manch, but now only zoo we have is Stone and Franklin, Stone sucks, Franklin is far away and alright, the NE Aquarium is AWESOME though. But we could use something else up north now that NH is being more developed than it use to be.
 
Patrick said:
The mayor is politically accountable. Does he appoint the planners or how does that work? If they are directly under his supervision, that might explain the lack of an urban vision, as the city "races to the bottom" (accepting any and all development to lower taxes) in this tight economy.
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Sry bout double post but... its not the cities fault. If the city had $10 million they would renovate the sidewalks there, if the city had more money they would make everything look perfect. In return promote developers to develop shit parts and make the city look nice. But money is ALWAYS an issue, and there will also always need to be affordable housing and stuff like that, making the overall appearance less attractive so people do not want to deal with it. Its just a cycle. Stuff changes, and hopefully things change for the better.

The area of southern Elm st., the lady form Intown Manch. actually asked everyone what they had envisioned for the area. Like a theme or what.

I didn't speak up since I not only do not own property but do not even have a store there yet. Just interest, but someone said he wanted it to continue what Elm already is, and she said she envisioned it to be different. I think it should tie in however. But yeah, basically they have these meetings (another one in 3 months) and alderman is there, economic development, and property owners and they discuss what they see, then they bring in architects and they develop a plan. Most of which is never done, lack of money and peoples initiative is the problem. But she said one idea was form the Mill yard a parkign garage that went over the streets to elm to connect them all.
 
Monopoly, I like a lot of your ideas for the area down there. Thanks for all the info from that meeting, too. I'm still down on the whole MB proposal as it stands, but if some of the stuff you mentioned pans out, I feel a lot better about the Warehouse/South Elm area. Sorry to have been such a downer before. I just wanted to respond to some of your ideas:

The National grid area somehow hidden (I have no idea, but guessing that is permanent) from Elm. St., River's Edge II possibly a large high rise, well not large, but high rise, with mixed retail along st. and office on top with a well placed parking garage open to the public at a cost. Manch transit authority there was talk about expanding the Elliot, this would work for me. Somewhere get a movie theater in there. Now since we are all form NE I picture something like that proposed (maybe now built) Freeport movie theatre or possibly like the AMC on the common in Boston and build it into the large building at River's Edge II. This will diversify the traffic. People to retail, youngins with disposable money to the theatre and more business in the area with the offices. Like I said MB works for me. Finish those condos and get a bridge for walkers across river (I think already exists) and another bridge to Elm st over rails. The warehouse district I see being basically a continuation of what is on Elm now, just take those buildings and renovate them into retail. Many have decent parking. Do the same along Willow st. and continue up Willow st. with renovations (haha, his would be cool but no time soon) and then once Willow st. starts to turn up there is some mill now, used by a company, convert that to residential, and make more high rise buildings there for higher end condos and apartments. Connect Willow to Elm with nice walk ways and bridges over the old rail (now swampy rusty rail).
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I like the basic idea of that area having a different feel from downtown proper, but tying in somehow. Currently and historically, it's a bit separate from downtown, but still close by. The arena and Gaslight could be a sort of transitional area--in terms of feel, use and movement--from the main downtown to the Warehouse/South Elm district (this area should get some sort of easily brand-able, identifiable name), which might be grittier (in a good way) and lower in scale than downtown. I think you're right that most of the old warehouse buildings could easily be renovated into great retail and office space. Most of them are probably great, old, wide-span structures that would make really hip spaces if the later-era facades were replaced. Some would also make great restaurants and bars, which are key to bringing more people in, especially after visiting the Verizon or something.

The 379 Elm building that you mentioned before is a perfect example of this, and I remember awhile back there was a proposal to put a mixed use, mid-rise building there. I actually like the idea of preserving and reusing the existing buildings better. Downtown and the Millyard are becoming more refined, and a few single-story buildings are being replaced with taller ones. This is good, but I see the Warehouse especially, and the Gaslight to a lesser extent, retaining some of the grit they have now, which if embraced can be a real asset--I mean a refined Warehouse district doesn't really make much sense. Van Otis could use a new facade, but I love that in an old warehouse building there is primarily low-impact manufacturing, but then a retail space where they sell their chocolates. Next door is (or at least used to be) an outdoors store, then an unfinished furniture place that I believe also has some on-site manufacturing. I'd love to see more of this stuff there with stores/light manufacturing/restaurants and bars/offices replacing gas stations and the like down there. If that happens, even with the big MB on one side, you'd be much more likely to get pedestrians down there.

If this area is eventually anchored by a larger scale development at the Rivers Edge II site as you suggest, you'd definitely get cross-traffic going from downtown to the Elliott at Rivers Edge and this area. I think something like what you described would work really well--something too high might be a bit odd down there, but something mid-rise to high-rise with something to draw people in would definitely have an anchoring effect.

As far as MB bringing people in--I hope it does. My concern would be that with a huge parking lot to cross and no other redevelopment of the site, there won't be too much pedestrian traffic. Right now, that stretch of Elm is primarily just something to drive down to get to or from downtown, and I'm not sure whether the MB will change that or not. Still, I feel better about the area after hearing your thoughts and what was discussed at that meeting.
 
Yeah I agree completely with what you say minus the "different look fro this area" I think it should just be a carry on of downtown Elm with the exception of newer buildings. Whatever is built should be built. Do not try to appeal to any theme. I would like to see some run down gas stations replaced (one will be with the MB)

The River's Edge II like I said could be a really beneficial site. If something is built, mid-range may actually be a waste of space. I think Manchester could use another large high-rise. It brings so many more people for business, and just provides many jobs. The big key IMO is to keep it mixed and have retail on the street level with cafes and shops.

Well, we will see. If I can I will get any more info on here. Felt a bit awkward in the meeting not actually owning property or even having a store there yet but whatever. I may go to another one. I just find it kinda interesting as well.

Office or residential I should say. Manch. needs higher end dense residential. I think over all they lack in high end living. I was looking for apartment there, very limited in choices if you want to live in something decent in the city.

And FrankLloydMike, what's with livin in MA... gotta move up to NH. Support Manch., support NH. haha
 
MonopolyBag said:
Yeah I agree completely with what you say minus the "different look fro this area" I think it should just be a carry on of downtown Elm with the exception of newer buildings. Whatever is built should be built. Do not try to appeal to any theme. I would like to see some run down gas stations replaced (one will be with the MB)
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I'm interested to hear your thoughts on "carrying on of downtown Elm" in the Warehouse District/South Elm area. My view is that it should be treated differently than downtown, but encourage people to move between the two areas. I'm not sure if we're thinking the same thing but expressing it differently, or if you have a different perspective on the area, but I'd like to hear more about it since it's an exciting area to imagine coming into its own.

Like I said, I think it should be treated differently. I found a map of the area from 1905 that confirms what I had assumed about the area just from being there and the city naming it the Warehouse District. The streets aren't labeled, but you can see a big rail yard along the west side of Elm Street, which still exists in part but is also now the site of National Grid, Market Basket, etc. The opposite side of the street is home to the warehouses, many of which still exist though most have been poorly refaced along Elm with uninterested facades (fortunately, this is easily undone). You can also see that at the time the downtown proper really extended as far south as West Auburn, the east-west street with a kink in it just north of the rail yard that is now between the Gaslight District and MB. Old Granite Street was just regular Granite Street and followed the grid. When the Center of NH complex was built in the 1980s, several blocks were demolished and Granite Street was widened and re-routed. This created the much more defined end of downtown that exists now. So I think history supports treating the Gaslight, Warehouse and South Elm districts as distinct districts/neighborhoods that are very accessible and complimentary to downtown.

Additionally, I think the area just has an inherently different feel. Most of the buildings are much lower than those downtown, and given their industrial past they are much less ornate and don't feature the same type of storefront you find north of Granite Street. What I assume they do feature, however, are wide-span interior spaces similar to the mills that you won't find downtown, but in a much smaller scale than in the mills that would make them excellent conversions to retail, restaurants, bars and a few offices. Another thing that gives the Warehouse District a different feeling than downtown is that it is essentially a one-block deep neighborhood along one side of Elm Street. As I?ve mentioned, I?d have loved to see a larger, mixed-use development on the MB site, which would have blended the Gaslight and Warehouse districts and alleviated some of the single-sidedness of the Warehouse District. Still, I think the Warehouse District can use this to its advantage, but it has to embrace the rougher, industrial nature of the area to do so. It would be really odd to have taller buildings in the downtown mold facing an empty rail yard and supermarket parking lot; it?s not bad, though, to have lower-scale, reused industrial buildings (and new infill) facing what they always have: great views of the Uncanoonucs and hills across the river.

I agree the National Grid isn?t going anywhere and now that MB is going in, you?re going to have one side of Elm open and one with buildings, with an exception of hopefully replacing the auto-centric buildings at the end of Valley with something more urban. I?d like to see the city encourage National Grid and MB to do some landscaping on that side, but even without it, they?re sunken enough that the dominant view across Elm is really to the West Side, and given the width of Elm there it?s not like you?d have pedestrians running across the street anyway. More importantly, the city should plant a row of trees down the center of Elm as called for in the Master Plan to soften the strip feeling there. I?d also like to see the MTA run a frequent-service bus, perhaps an extension of the downtown circulator, between the Rivers Edge projects and downtown with stops in the Warehouse/South Elm. I?d be surprised actually if they don?t do this.

I really like your idea of re-using the buildings along the Willow side of the Warehouse District as residences?with the low traffic there, you could even have first-floor residences if developers chose, and they?d face a park-like cemetery backing onto what will hopefully be an exciting area. Additionally, I?d love to see the area retain some low-impact manufacturing. As far as I know, the only manufacturing left in the city center is happening in this neighborhood, and it?s pretty neighborhood-friendly: chocolate at Van Otis, furniture at Purely Wood, etc. Given the history of the neighborhood, the building stock and the proximity to the Gaslight district, which the city wants to see filled with more craftspeople I think, a component of light manufacturing (I?d love to see a microbrewery/brewpub in there) would really enhance the neighborhood. If you had a mix of this, some restaurants, shops, a few offices, and residences above and along Willow, the area could become a really hip, interesting neighborhood perfectly situated right by downtown and between it and the Rivers Edge redevelopment.
 
I forgot to ask, but I'm curious as someone looking into opening a business in Manchester what attracted you to the South Elm/Warehouse area as opposed to some of the other areas either downtown or in the surrounding neighborhoods? It definitely has the potential to be a great area and to get a lot of traffic, but I was wondering if there was something particular to the neighborhood that attracted you to it.
 
One thing... parking. Downtown does not have parking, southern part of Elm does. I saw 379 Elm st. with a proposed concept to have it renovated either an office building or just make it look nicer. I liked it. Price was cheap, but primarily, nice area with traffic, in heart of city (I know this shouldn't be deciding factor, but I love Manchester and I feel it would be a cool contribution to the city) but it is a good location with parking and the building has some garage units there.

I have always liked cities, but loved not being in cities as well. I couldn't live in Boston but Manchester is different and I like it. Manchester also does not have any store similar to this making competition low.

I think we are saying the same thing BTW minus I feel you think big buildings should not be built. I feel the warehouse area should stay. Like you said, they have great potential. But Manchester lacks luxury housing and needs more. Also I think more office buildings would benefit. And as I think we all like, a cool skyline is always nice to look at and although Manchester's is not weak, it could be better. But there are many places where there are one -3 story buildings where a high-rise could be. Low parking garages or parking lots vs. garages. This is poor use of land in the middle of a city. It is different when not in a city, but a MB going in with not mixed use, kinda weak IMO. But that is set. Which is why I would like to see other areas redeveloped and with proper mixed use buildings and potential other high-rises with residential and office and street level retail. And Manchester REALLY needs a movie theater and other additional entertainment along those lines. And while we are at this, Salem NH could use a movie theater. NH in general could use a movie theater or two. They all stink here and as it is living in Salem I drive to the Methuen AMC.
 
I hadn't really put that together, but you're right--there's a ton more parking down there, which is good for retail like you said. Aside from the drive-through banks and gas stations, and the MB, though, I like that the parking is mostly on-street. The one side of the street with stuff going on gets parallel parking on both sides of the street, as well as on Willow Street and even in the alley. Even if they do make Elm into more of an avenue with trees, which would be great, I bet you could reduce it to one-lane in either direction and even add some on-street parking.

I'm not necessarily against big buildings, I just don't like how there seems to be an emphasis on height in particular places in Manchester instead of trying to get rid of single-story buildings in the city center. It's weird that Hampshire Plaza is surrounded by single-story buildings. The city could use some more high-rises, and one at the southern end of Elm could be a great anchor, but if I had to choose between a high-rise there or greater density in lower buildings throughout the city center, I'd go with the latter. I would love to see almost all of the warehouses retained, as well as all the buildings in the Gaslight district (except the garages on Elm), but the cosmetic school and auto dealership just north of the Warehouses should be replaced with higher-density, taller mixed use buildings. The same goes for most of the buildings south of Valley Street, I'd say.

I also completely agree about a movie theatre--aside from restaurants and occasional activities at the arena or Palace, there's no entertainment downtown really. I don't know if a zoo would work downtown or how one would get established, but something like that--even something like the carousel on the Greenway in Boston--makes the city more interesting. There was a zoo on Bass Island until the floods in the 1930s, I believe.

I also completely agree about housing--Manchester has some great assets downtown and even some great neighborhoods currently, but they tend to be outside the city center. It could definitely use some new, high-end housing downtown and nearby, but I'm not sure how soon that will happen given the market. One thing I love about living in Cambridge, though, is that the housing stock is almost exactly like that of Manchester--mostly triple-deckers, and a mix of single- and multi-family wood framed houses with small yards. They're not luxury condos, but mixed in with lower- and middle-class residences are higher-end houses, too. I think the same is true of Portland, too. The only difference really is that in Cambridge and Portland, there are more owner-occupied buildings so they're better cared for and that makes the neighborhoods much nicer. Manchester seems to be pushing in that direction, and it will take time, but I think that will be a big part of getting more people to live closer to downtown.

Good luck with the business, too... it would really be great to get some interesting retail like that down there.
 
I agree with the high-rise end anchor and also retaining gaslight and warehouses (which city plans to do) Parking is needed for me (not on street) being an aquarium store with big items.

HAHA a zoo would not be downtown. It would be on outskirts. Just a random thought I had the other day hahaha. Zoos are usually form a long long time ago. Starting one now is difficult with laws and stuff, and usually non-profit. Carousel is cool. I read about a central Manch park, good idea, maybe with a large koi pond with fountains.

So what is your interest in Manch. living in Cambridge? BTW Cambridge has plenty of luxury apartments though. Manch. got like 2, and a few above some old buildings on Elm.


HERE: Info on the MB.
http://www.yourmanchesternh.com/uploads/Perspectives.pdf
http://www.yourmanchesternh.com/uploads/2010-06-30 RMD Manchester Elevations.pdf
http://www.yourmanchesternh.com/uploads/Color Site Layout.pdf

IMO that MB looks nice, I grew up with MB and their products IMO are better than other stores, and mad cheap. I like them. I am a bit excited for this.

Also, maybe if we had enough thoughts we could do something like submit them to the city? Dunno how this stuff goes but we the people are the ones who use New England cities and I do know that our input will be looked at. More so if it is a group.

And Job Corps for those of you who do not know the Manch website.
http://www.yourmanchesternh.com/uploads/0846-CD60 - Architectural Plans for Job Corp.pdf
 
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I'm glad to hear they plan on retaining those areas, and I think in the warehouse area the off-street parking that exists isn't as intrusive as some other places because of all the on-street to augment it. Any idea if any of the parking at MB is going to be public? Thanks for posting that MB info, too--I've been wanting to see that sort of thing for awhile. It does look nicer than I had expected, and I'm glad they're planting so many trees along Elm--that will really soften the look in a few years. I'd still love it if they build something on the corner of Elm and West Auburn with parking at the MB level in the future, but for now better than I had expected.

I grew up in Manchester (and Bedford--father in Bedford near South River, mother in Manchester) just north of Webster Street. My mother has since moved to the Portsmouth area, but I still go up to Manchester a lot and keep tabs on what's going on. I like that for being close to a very big city, Cambridge feels smaller but still urban and connected. Still, I often think about moving to a smaller city at some point in the future.

As far as parks go, Manchester has quite a collection. I like the idea of adding something, whether it's a carousel, koi pond, anything really to some of the downtown ones--and making Arms Park an actual park not a parking lot, it's right on the river and could be such a draw. I also really like the Job Corps project. I wish it was closer to downtown, but it will be a nice addition to the city where it is.
 
That is going to be cool. The green building. Any idea if the building is going to be only office, or mixed? I read both and read somewhere that it may be office, manufacturing, and a bit residential. Either way it is going to look nice. Basically every Mill building now has been renovated.

MB parking, no idea if it is going to be public or not. Doesn't really matter cuz I park at grocery stores parking lots all the time for not going into the store. Never gotten towed since so many other cars.

But I do know MB is going to have strict (not sure what they are though) rules about parking when events are going on (Baseball and Verizon)
 
Just found some more photos of the Pandora renovation. It looks great. I'm really excited about this, as it's such a prominent and beautiful building. As far as use, I believe it's going to mostly offices now--at one point there was talk of putting a hotel in there, but I think it's offices now. Maybe some retail on the ground floor, but not sure. The problem with retail in the mills is a lack of parking coupled with long distances between openings--no storefronts really and only a few entrances to buildings makes it not an easy place to walk to find retail and stuff.
 
The Pandora really turned out great. I'm just glad that it was saved. I really like that Fortress Manchester site. The post about old mural advertisements in the city makes me think. Wouldn't it be a good idea to restore some of those old downtown advertisements before they fade away?
 
I just checked out the Fortress Manchester in detail and like it. Was reading about the buses, rich houses, and gardens. Why are there not more community gardens? That would be something I could see someone donating a some money and time to set them up.
 
From the AP:
Friday, August 27, 2010
Airport done growing, for now

MANCHESTER -- The two-decade long building boom at New Hampshire?s largest airport is complete.

Officials at Manchester-Boston Regional Airport told the public Thursday during a meeting on the airport?s master plan that the airport will now concentrate on tweaking the facilities it has.

Deputy Airport Director J. Brian O?Neill said the infrastructure in place now should be sufficient to last through 2030.

Airport officials don?t anticipate reaching their 2005 peak of 2.2 million passenger boardings again until 2029.

Boardings are expected to bottom out this year at 1.5 million people and then start to grow again.

? The Associated Press
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I don't like the sound of this at all. It seems that the new leadership at the airport has done little to attract new airlines or businesses to the airport. It's sad, but good news hasn't come out of the airport for a while.
 
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