MBTA Commuter Rail (Operations, Keolis, & Short Term)

[JumboBuc]

The app needs a MY TRAIN WAS CANCELLED REFUND ME BITCH option

The frequency of delays, and their severity, appears to have been completely ignored, especially because it's not necessarily the case that any given delay or cancellation is announced any meaningful time in advance. I've had experiences where I've been at the station, waiting, and a delay (subsequently turning into a cancellation) wasn't even announced until the time the train was supposed to depart, i.e. long after most if not all passengers would expect to have validated tickets and entered the paid area. (In my case I'd be particularly furious given that I live close enough to the Orange Line that whenever the Haverhill had a meltdown it was a viable alternative option, but like hell am I going to waste a CR fare and pay for the subway, which would be forced on anyone using M-Ticket and potentially on other non-pass users.)

With fully established entrance and exit fare validation, you need not get charged if you enter and exit at the same station within a limited amount of time.

Say you enter through the gates at North Station intending to go to Lowell, but then leave through those same gates at North Station 30 minutes later. The act of exiting North Station through the gates could basically invalidate the fare that was previously validated when you entered, making your "ticket" ineligible to travel to Lowell but also deleting the charge from your account. The same process could be used for stepping out of the waiting area to get some food or take a leak, for example.

In this situation, one could also hypothetically validate to enter the faregates then invalidate to exit, without ever exiting. Then they'd be in the waiting area without a validated fare and could potentially make their way onto a train for free, but they won't have a validated fare active if checked. This would basically be equivalent to jumping a turnstile.

The "thing" with all of this is that it has to be fully established to really work. Setting up gates on one station doesn't make sense; it has to be pretty much all or nothing.

It's also important to recognize that no system is foolproof. Some schmucks will always game the system to find a way to travel without paying. But a good system will be set up in a way that discourages the greatest amount of people from doing this. It's one thing to simply "forget" to validate your fare unless asked by a conductor, and plenty of otherwise rule following people do this to get trips without paying. I had a coworker in the Before Times who came into the office 2-3 times a week, and she would buy a 10-trip pass that would last her well more than 10 trips because she only validated when an inspector was approaching; if one never came by she never validated. I wouldn't be surprised if this sort of behavior is relatively common. It's a whole 'nother level of dishonesty and thievery, however, to jump a gate or show a fake screenshot / be a jerk to an inspector when questioned; many fewer people do this. My understanding of the logic behind the gates is that it will nudge the general rule-following public to be more adherent to validating tickets, even if it doesn't catch the outright scofflaws.

 

[Brattle Loop]

With fully established entrance and exit fare validation, you need not get charged if you enter and exit at the same station within a limited amount of time.

Say you enter through the gates at North Station intending to go to Lowell, but then leave through those same gates at North Station 30 minutes later. The act of exiting North Station through the gates could basically invalidate the fare that was previously validated when you entered, making it ineligible to travel to Lowell but also deleting the charge from your account. The same process could be used for stepping out of the waiting area to get some food or take a leak.

In this situation, one could also hypothetically validate to enter the faregates then invalidate to exit, without ever exiting. Then they'd be in the waiting area without a validated fare and could potentially make their way onto a train for free, but they won't have a validated fare active if checked. This would basically be equivalent to jumping a turnstile.

The "thing" with all of this is that it has to be fully established to really work. Setting up gates on one station doesn't make sense; it has to be pretty much all or nothing.

Agreed. I have no objection to an off-train system of fare validation (I quibble with the need for gates, specifically, but that's details). I have an objection to a system this clunky. I'm quite curious how they intend to make this work at South Station (obviously they don't seem to be trying at the moment given all the construction) if and when they install it there. It seems like someone at the T or Keolis got lunatic visions of fare evasion in their heads (which I'd wager is far less of a problem then when their overcrowding/understaffing made it impossible for conductors to collect fares) and that the good thing about fare gates is that you don't have to pay them, unlike the minions they hired to check that people had tickets (I always got a sense of satisfaction going past those people with the same ticket more than once whenever the conductors didn't check tickets.)

 

[guitarguynboston]

There's gotta be a better way to make up the funding that fares contribute. Listening to the public and the MBTA a person would think it costs more to prevent fare evasion than they collect in fares.

Maybe(I know people cringe at the word taxes) some how split between if you work or live in the MBTA's catchment you pay a percent from income and/or property tax. Then if you're complaining that you pay the taxes but don't use the system it's all on you for not taking advantage of the opportunities you have in front of you. Example being how everyone is bitching about gas prices right now. You can't bitch if you have options for it not to affect you.

Ok now tear my idea apart but please be educate me. People seem to be biting each other's heads off lately cause they have different opinions and that discourages people like me from participating in discussions.

 

[KCasiglio]

There's gotta be a better way to make up the funding that fares contribute. Listening to the public and the MBTA a person would think it costs more to prevent fare evasion than they collect in fares.

Maybe(I know people cringe at the word taxes) some how split between if you work or live in the MBTA's catchment you pay a percent from income and/or property tax. Then if you're complaining that you pay the taxes but don't use the system it's all on you for not taking advantage of the opportunities you have in front of you. Example being how everyone is bitching about gas prices right now. You can't bitch if you have options for it not to affect you.

Ok now tear my idea apart but please be educate me. People seem to be biting each other's heads off lately cause they have different opinions and that discourages people like me from participating in discussions.

I think what you're working towards is a land value tax, which many urbanist/transit advocates favor for infrastructure value capture.

 

[Stlin]

Quiet and seemingly just study funds, but how do we feel about adding a CR infill connection at Wonderland? I don't fully understand how they're going to actually accommodate that given the distances between the RoW, but I feel like it's not the worst idea if it can be done cheaply and quickly while not blocking Blue to Lynn. That said, don't be cowards and just build Blue to Lynn already.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1507367786263171075

 

[themissinglink]

Quiet and seemingly just study funds, but how do we feel about adding a CR infill connection at Wonderland?

Hopefully it isn't meant as a replacement for a BLX to Lynn project.

 

[guitarguynboston]

It seems like the Red/Blue Connector and the Lynn Extension should be prerequisites to adding a commuter rail stop on the Blue Line and does one even needed to be added at Wonderland if Lynn is the better connection option.

 

[stick n move]

Definitely a connection at Lynn would be a much better solution. Hopefully the political will develops for it to finally happen.

 

[DBM]

There's a very amiable conductor who frequently staffs the Providence Line who I will chat with occasionally. Last week I asked him why the trains have to idle for so long at PVD station--couldn't they just power-up a few minutes before scheduled departure, and not waste all that fuel/spew so much pollutants?

(I assumed it had to do with optimal efficiency for running diesel locomotives--and he confirmed it.)

The conversation then turned to a number of his opinions and revelations (to me, at least):

1.) OPINION: he never wants to see the Providence line electrified, given that he feels AMTRAK's electric trains are so much less reliable compared to MBTA diesel-powered trains in terms of ratio of mechanical failures/breakdowns. I don't know if he feels he's speaking for the entire union? And, how would you compare AMTRAK vs. MBTA reliability on the Boston-Providence segment of the NEC, to try to prove/disprove this claim? In other words, what metrics would give you the best apples-to-apples analytics?

2.) OPINION: he feels the ability to "regionalize"/expand MBTA CR service has been greatly hampered by the number of MBTA (and/or freight?) ROWs that have been given to "Friends Of" bike path civic associations and/or municipalities to create bike paths. Not having a regional map of all the ROW-to-bike path conversions in EMass in front of me, I couldn't visualize what's happened and attempt to rebut that (if in fact that's a false/misleading claim). If such a map exists, it would be wonderful to scrutinize--but what entity would generate it?

3.) REVELATION: the relatively high speeds achieved on the NEC are vitally dependent on meticulous track-grading--there's a specialized truck that drives the tracks constantly, he said, doing telemetry to detect lopsided contours/gradients in the track and then correcting them. Neat!

4.) REVELATION: the conspicuous cant of the tracks around the Sharon station was done to ensure AMTRAK could maintain its speeds through the area--same principle as why NASCAR tracks are banked, he stated. Looking at the track segment between Mansfield and Canton, I see now that there is a fair amount of curviness to it, so that's what the cant compensates for? How many other sections of the NEC are canted so conspicuously, then?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Quiet and seemingly just study funds, but how do we feel about adding a CR infill connection at Wonderland? I don't fully understand how they're going to actually accommodate that given the distances between the RoW, but I feel like it's not the worst idea if it can be done cheaply and quickly while not blocking Blue to Lynn. That said, don't be cowards and just build Blue to Lynn already.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1507367786263171075

The 2004 PMT estimated capital costs for this thing and its associated connecting walkway at a cool $70M (first benchmarked in a 1997 Wonderland study, then adjusted up to '04 inflation). And it was predicated on local ridership generation from a crapton of TOD in the wake of the dog park redevelopment, which of course never happened and is now deader than a doornail...so the ridership on a rehash today isn't going to have any Wonderland destination trips to speak of. Clearly Markey and Clark respond when someone jiggles a set of car keys in front of their faces, and that's all well and good for whoever's hand is jiggling the keys...but if that old price tag is at all reflective of what this'll cost it has almost zero chance of happening. Wonderland projects too much poorer off as just a rotary w/strip malls vs. whatever narnia they were envisioning 15-20 years ago that you wouldn't make up enough trips with the very labor-intensive airport transfer to pay the bills to get it open. It either won't have whatever climate protected walkway the old proposal did for the sake of bludgeoning costs and be that much poorer on ridership for the extra transferring hardship...or it's going to cost a bugfark $100M with inflation. No thanks.

$4M to study it now is tantamount to lighting a stack of paper on fire. There are literally DOZENS of things they could be studying that have a better chance than this.

 

[Riverside]

Yoooo @DBM that’s all super cool but maybe edit your post to not specify which train your conductor works on? That makes him relatively identifiable.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

1.) OPINION: he never wants to see the Providence line electrified, given that he feels AMTRAK's electric trains are so much less reliable compared to MBTA diesel-powered trains in terms of ratio of mechanical failures/breakdowns. I don't know if he feels he's speaking for the entire union? And, how would you compare AMTRAK vs. MBTA reliability on the Boston-Providence segment of the NEC, to try to prove/disprove this claim? In other words, what metrics would give you the best apples-to-apples analytics?

That's direct-contradicted by several Keolis and AMTK employee posters on RR.net who are engineers or conductors on the same trains. But it's also not apples-apples, because the Amtrak electrics are going all the way to Washington, D.C. on their duty cycles.

2.) OPINION: he feels the ability to "regionalize"/expand MBTA CR service has been greatly hampered by the number of MBTA (and/or freight?) ROWs that have been given to "Friends Of" bike path civic associations and/or municipalities to create bike paths. Not having a regional map of all the ROW-to-bike path conversions in EMass in front of me, I couldn't visualize what's happened and attempt to rebut that (if in fact that's a false/misleading claim). If such a map exists, it would be wonderful to scrutinize--but what entity would generate it?

Huh??? What has that got to do with expanding service? Frequencies drive a lion's share more trips than add'l geographic coverage, and we've hardly tapped out the available active ROW's (Lowell-NH, Peabody, Middleboro-Cape, Framingham-Northboro, Milford) that fill out the most-wanted list of brand-new lines? Which lost ROW's is this person lamenting exactly? Millis? Central Mass? Methuen? Bunch of middling-at-best prospects there.

3.) REVELATION: the relatively high speeds achieved on the NEC are vitally dependent on meticulous track-grading--there's a specialized truck that drives the tracks constantly, he said, doing telemetry to detect lopsided contours/gradients in the track and then correcting them. Neat!

Class 8 track requires expensively meticulous maintenance practices, yes. It's why there's relatively few commuter-primary lines in the world that do any greater than a Class 5/90 MPH equivalent, while most top out at Class 4/80 MPH. It takes a premium-class HSR or intercity co-tenant to pay for the extra maint classes.

4.) REVELATION: the conspicuous cant of the tracks around the Sharon station was done to ensure AMTRAK could maintain its speeds through the area--same principle as why NASCAR tracks are banked, he stated. Looking at the track segment between Mansfield and Canton, I see now that there is a fair amount of curviness to it, so that's what the cant compensates for? How many other sections of the NEC are canted so conspicuously, then?

Lots of places, but moreso New Haven-Boston where there was more room on the ROW for grading the superelevation. Most of >125 MPH territory has these fixins', because the Acelas' tilting mechanism is designed to damp the forces around the canted areas. You'd feel the G's bigtime if you went overspeed through the Sharon bank in a non-tilting stock Purple Line coach...and do feel it a *little* bit at 125 MPH in a non-tilting Amfleet.

 

[DBM]

Yoooo @DBM that’s all super cool but maybe edit your post to not specify which train your conductor works on? That makes him relatively identifiable.

Good point. done.

 

[themissinglink]

If there was an extension of the Franklin Line to Woonsocket, how likely would stations in South Bellingham and/or Blackstone be?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

If there was an extension of the Franklin Line to Woonsocket, how likely would stations in South Bellingham and/or Blackstone be?

Millerville (a.k.a. South Bellingham) is a densely populated village that's basically an over-state-line extension of City of Woonsocket. It's closer to the northernmost neighborhoods of Woonsocket than the actual Woonsocket Depot would be, so would be significantly enriched by interstate patronage. It would even be possible to super-extend RIPTA Route 54 from its northern loop across the state line to dump there. Ridership is definitely high enough for Millerville.

Blackstone depends on how much the village wants it. The old depot was off Canal St. in what's now the current parking lot for the rail trail, not at MA 122. MA 122 is only 1 mile down the street from Woonsocket Depot, so they aren't exactly unserved if there isn't a local stop (and it being such a small town the walksheds are not exactly super-fruitful). It would make *sense* to have a spacer there in the absolute, but they're going to have to advocate for it because the ridership is not likely to be that high.

Assume also that there'd be a Pn'R complement (if the Milford Branch stays/is itself extended) or replacement (if the routing switches off the Milford Branch) to Forge Park at Grove St. in Franklin, with shuttle bus back-circuiting to Forge Park. That location is easily accessible to the 495 King St. exit, has space for parking, and would make sense for refashioning the biz-circulator bus routes. It's the less-dense end of the industrial park (not that the FP end is super-dense), but it's amongst contiguous commercial development.

So...3-4 stops total past Franklin. No...nobody has studied specific stop locations in MA because the only agency to attempt a Franklin-Woonsocket study to date has been RIDOT, who obviously doesn't have jurisdiction on that. RIDOT's last State Rail Plan called for a collaborative study with MassDOT to hash out more particulars on this, though MassDOT has not yet obliged them.

 

[themissinglink]

Blackstone depends on how much the village wants it. The old depot was off Canal St. in what's now the current parking lot for the rail trail, not at MA 122. MA 122 is only 1 mile down the street from Woonsocket Depot, so they aren't exactly unserved if there isn't a local stop (and it being such a small town the walksheds are not exactly super-fruitful). It would make *sense* to have a spacer there in the absolute, but they're going to have to advocate for it because the ridership is not likely to be that high.

If a station in Blackstone was to be included as part of the extension or constructed later as an infill, would it likely be located off MA 122 or south of the old station on Canal Street? (in North Smithfield, but very close to the old Blackstone station site)

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

If a station in Blackstone was to be included as part of the extension or constructed later as an infill, would it likely be located off MA 122 or south of the old station on Canal Street? (in North Smithfield, but very close to the old Blackstone station site)

122 would probably net more traffic, but it would have to be set back a bit on Castle Hill Way (currently a private road) because of the incline for the bridge over 122 + the river so has some potential NIMBY issues. Mill St., right before the line would have to dive on a newly-grafted southbound wye into RI, is at the opposite end of Canal from the old depot...almost 1250 ft. away. Not nearly as walkable to Main St. and what passes for a village downtown than the old location, but some people might find it preferable to the walk along 122.

I think it entirely depends on whether they're feelin' it in the village about either of them, let alone one over the other. I mean, it's the proverbial Shirley of the corridor. Whereas Millerville has a definite density component arguing for its inclusion, Blackstone's inclusion is totally up to local fervor or lackthereof.

 

[themissinglink]

Are there any viable sites for an infill station between Wilmington and North Billerica?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Are there any viable sites for an infill station between Wilmington and North Billerica?

Some reanimated permutation of East Billerica (at Gray St. pre-1965...could go at Andover Rd.) might make sense for drawing from South Tewksbury and the MA 129 corridor. There's a lot of residential there. However, it would be *fairly* weak on ridership because of the lack of any buses and spotty sidewalk coverage in the walkshed. I doubt you'd consider that one until :30 Regional Rail service levels are very well established throughout the corridor.

Silver Lake was the other pre-'65 stop on the stretch, though that one is much too close to Wilmington to rate in any universe.

 

[themissinglink]

Seeing as how the Framingham/Worcester line triple track project between Weston and Framingham is slated to start construction in a few years, what is the likelihood of a future "phase 2" where the segment from Framingham to Worcester is triple tracked?