MBTA Commuter Rail (Operations, Keolis, & Short Term)

DBM said:
Any future hypothetical South Attleboro station is just 2.6 miles uptrack from the Pawtucket one. If the Pawtucket one is "too nice," then, practically speaking, given its proximity, hasn't it already cannibalized a critical portion of any ridership at the potential South Attleboro rebuilt station? Also, if it's "too nice," then, MBTA policymakers might be nudged into placing their thumbs on the scales--like, by making daily parking at South Attleboro $5, vs., say, $10 at Pawtucket (just hypothesizing here). The longer ridership gets used to Pawtucket being a nice reliable CR stop in operation.... and the longer any possible South Attleboro rebuild recedes over the horizon... then it seems like the pressure mounts for perverse incentives (liking making the parking excessively cheaper) to help make South Attleboro succeed as a station, in terms of whatever amount of ridership would justify that $62M (if it really sticks to that, in 2023 dollars) rebuild.
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South Attleboro did 1,144 daily boardings in 2018, and was 9th on the entire system in daily boardings in the last Blue Book...slightly behind Worcester. It's a major, major station. Too major to be subject to much cannibalization from Pawtucket. If in the very unlikely event Pawtucket managed to cannibalize 30% of SA's ridership, it would still be a Top 35 station on Commuter Rail. That's how big SA is.

It doesn't need to be propped up with hacks, doesn't need to be rationalized. It's a huge ridership generator, and the T suffers the longer it stays closed.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Skip Providence?!? Never ever in a million years. Providence was 7th in both Acela and Northeast Regional boardings in 2022, outslugging Baltimore on the Acela. It's got to be a stop on every....single....service.

Alon Levy benchmarked the time savings of doing the East Junction + College Hill tunnel bypass vs. the current routing, and despite a few more miles of 165 MPH territory the total savings were a trivial couple minutes, not enough benefit to pay for it. The Corridor is probably permanently going to be routed over the Attleboro Cutoff, which is why the T should've anticipated post-Gateway traffic growth when designing South Attleboro station. If not a quad-tracker like the NECIIMP specced, then at least a tri-tracker.
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It would NOT skip Providence. I pointed out that Regional service would remain on the original route and Providence High speed rail service would still be part of the plan. With the prospects of electrification of commuter rail, the need to link Boston and Providence with Acela service would be less important. It would just provide a way to link the two longest sections of truly high speed rail in New England. It would also take freight off of the Corridor from Pawtucket to Davisville, and it would provide a direct link to Green International Airport. South Country RI is growing. This could be a game changer for the Corridor, and Rhode Island.
 
DBM said:
Any future hypothetical South Attleboro station is just 2.6 miles uptrack from the Pawtucket one. If the Pawtucket one is "too nice," then, practically speaking, given its proximity, hasn't it already cannibalized a critical portion of any ridership at the potential South Attleboro rebuilt station? Also, if it's "too nice," then, MBTA policymakers might be nudged into placing their thumbs on the scales--like, by making daily parking at South Attleboro $5, vs., say, $10 at Pawtucket (just hypothesizing here). The longer ridership gets used to Pawtucket being a nice reliable CR stop in operation.... and the longer any possible South Attleboro rebuild recedes over the horizon... then it seems like the pressure mounts for perverse incentives (liking making the parking excessively cheaper) to help make South Attleboro succeed as a station, in terms of whatever amount of ridership would justify that $62M (if it really sticks to that, in 2023 dollars) rebuild.
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Aside from what F-Line mentioned, I also can't help but wonder if some people who would have found South Attleboro more convenient are now having to use Pawtucket/Central Falls instead, contributing to the latter's success.

From a very vague recollection of mine, a lot of the local bus network there feed into South Attleboro. Some were amended to Pawtucket when the station opened, but not all.
 
Teban54 said:
Aside from what F-Line mentioned, I also can't help but wonder if some people who would have found South Attleboro more convenient are now having to use Pawtucket/Central Falls instead, contributing to the latter's success.

From a very vague recollection of mine, a lot of the local bus network there feed into South Attleboro. Some were amended to Pawtucket when the station opened, but not all.
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South Attleboro is served by four routes: RIPTA 1 and 35, and GATRA 11 and 16. It's the outer terminal for all except the 11. Pawtucket/Central Falls is served by ten RIPTA bus routes, including the 1.

At the end of the day, I think the two stations serve different enough markets to coexist. South Attleboro better serves the area east of Route 1, and it's a better I-95 park and ride than any other station between TF Green and Route 128.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
South Attleboro did 1,144 daily boardings in 2018, and was 9th on the entire system in daily boardings in the last Blue Book...slightly behind Worcester. It's a major, major station. Too major to be subject to much cannibalization from Pawtucket. If in the very unlikely event Pawtucket managed to cannibalize 30% of SA's ridership, it would still be a Top 35 station on Commuter Rail. That's how big SA is.

It doesn't need to be propped up with hacks, doesn't need to be rationalized. It's a huge ridership generator, and the T suffers the longer it stays closed.
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Wow, obviously I had no idea it was such a heavily-used station pre-pandemic--informative as always!
 
Per RR.net. . .

Asbestos removal underway on the derelict Budd RDC's that have been rotting away near Boston Engine Terminal for the last 19 years. Perhaps a sign that they're about to be finally scrapped? The one on the right was the unit that was arsoned earlier this year.

file.php
 
DBM said:
Wow, obviously I had no idea it was such a heavily-used station pre-pandemic--informative as always!
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Several of the stations on this line were in previous years the most used stations outside Boston in the commuter rail system - Mansfield, Attleboro, Providence, and S Attleboro. This line far and away dwarfs the ridership on all other lines.
 
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New England Born & Raised said:
Several of the stations on this line were in previous years the most used stations outside Boston in the commuter rail station - Mansfield, Attleboro, Providence, and S Attleboro. This line far and away dwarfs the ridership on all other lines.
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Yep. You would think WTF would you live there and work in Boston (and not say Providence) ... but I suppose you shouldn't underestimate people's desire for SFH and their willingness to go so far away to get it.
 
jklo said:
Yep. You would think WTF would you live there and work in Boston (and not say Providence) ... but I suppose you shouldn't underestimate people's desire for SFH and their willingness to go so far away to get it.
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The job market and wages are not as good in the Providence area when compared to Boston. The job advantage however flips when it comes to housing as you can get more for far less in the Providence area. Working in Boston while living near Providence is a winning personal money strategy on both fronts.
 
New England Born & Raised said:
The job market and wages are not as good in the Providence area when compared to Boston. The job advantage however flips when it comes to housing as you can get more for far less in the Providence area. Working in Boston while living near Providence is a winning personal money strategy on both fronts.
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I have been in that cohort for some time, *exploiting the delta.* I'm continuously impressed by how many riders there are on the Providence line during non-rush hour times in the afternoon, on days when I have to leave work early...
 
jklo said:
Yep. You would think WTF would you live there and work in Boston (and not say Providence) ... but I suppose you shouldn't underestimate people's desire for SFH and their willingness to go so far away to get it.
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Alternatively......Speed + frequency. Doesn't matter how far you are geographically, what matters is how far you are in commuting time.

This is of course, 10 years out of date but is a way to think about that: http://www.stonebrowndesign.com/uploads/9/7/6/9/9769402/mbta-rail-timescale.png

It's not surprising that somewhere like Attleboro would do major ridership when you realize in commute time, it is (or was at the time) a similar amount of time from Boston and with similar service levels to Framingham. No one's very surprised to hear lots of people commute from Framingham.
 
New England Born & Raised said:
The job market and wages are not as good in the Providence area when compared to Boston. The job advantage however flips when it comes to housing as you can get more for far less in the Providence area. Working in Boston while living near Providence is a winning personal money strategy on both fronts.
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The job market and wages are not as good in the Providence area when compared to Boston. The job advantage however flips when it comes to housing as you can get more for far less in the Providence area. Working in Boston while living near Providence is a winning personal money strategy on both fronts.
Yeah. A couple of anecdotes: I once had a CEO (small-ish startup/spin-off from a larger company) who lived in Providence and commuted to our office in Back Back every day. He was able to walk to the Amtrak station and get to the office faster door to door than I was living ~6-7 miles away in Dorchester. I guess Amtrak has (or had) a monthly type pass that was about the same as the MBTA, but, you could be on an Acela and go from Providence to Back Bay in under 30 minutes.

Another is a good friend/former colleague of mine who was born and raised in RI and ended up working in Boston their entire career (having met on both of our first gigs out of college). In the end, he was able to buy quite a nice house in a decent school system for a fraction of the price of anything within even 495, while still making a Boston salary (literally - at least 1/3 or less). He didn't live near Providence, but around TF Green, and found the trade-off of an hour and a half on the CR as worth it, especially given his companies and sector where he could get a decent amount of work done on the commute, making the entire thing not too bad. That said - he has been fully remote since 2020, and I don't think he is planning on ever doing that dance again unless forced. He did on occasion drive to Providence and catch the faster trains (both MBTA and Amtrak).

This always brings me back to what I think the vision on the Providence line should be: we have high-speed and regional rail making the run in 20-30 minutes, which is great. Unfortunately, they also don't stop at TF Green/the Airport. Then we have the MBTA doing the run with all the local stops taking 1-1.5 hours. I think, at least from the local MBTA side, moving into a fully electric world with 15-30-minute clock-facing schedules would be huge. With full-height platforms and electrification, I think the CR could slot in at a 30-45 minute run to Providence, and under an hour to TF Green (ideally 45 minutes). That opens up a big market of people in Boston going to Providence for a night out (and probably even more vice-versa), but also makes TF Green a viable alternative to Logan, and can long-term alleviate Logan's traffic and log-jam. With an electrified regional rail type service, TF Green becomes about as far (time-wise) as JFK is to Manhattan, and I would argue depending on where in Boston (and the Greater Boston Area), TF Green might become even more convenient than Logan with this level of service.

The last anecdote as it is a bit late, and I should get some sleep now that I have the little one back asleep: a few years ago with our first, we ended up doing a full trip to Providence and their Children's Museum on the Acela. We did drive to 128 (vs. taking the HSR and Red in town and Amtrak at South Station), and with the cost of the Amtrak tickets + bus + admission to their Children's museum, it was cost comparable to going into Boston's, paying for parking and admission. Plus, the kiddo loved going on the train (and actual HSR at that). One downside, of course, was the bus on the Providence side and the few blocks walk with a toddler (luckily a decent little family pub for lunch to break it up on the way back), but otherwise, it was pretty fast door-to-door: probably 10-15 minutes to 128, free parking there, 20 minutes on the Acela and a 10-minute bus ride rivals a bit the pandemic level red line service we had - and certainly driving in and getting parking can take anywhere from 15 minutes to an hour.

This is to say in my rambling: better, faster service to Providence and TF Green I think only helps and behooves us in Boston and Massachusetts in general. RI might be a different state, but, I think overall from a nonparochial viewpoint, as a city and airport are some of our best bets for investment. Anecdotes, again, but I know if we had fast regional rail service we would be more apt for day and weekend trips to RI (along with potentially flying out for longer trips), and I know quite a few people off-setting that in the RI world that would be coming to Boston for nightlife/restaurants/day trips.

This is a bit of a rant (and one I think I have been on before), but, yeah, I think the Boston <=> Providence link is very strong, and should be cultivated given what RI has to offer from Providence as a city and also TF Green as an airport.
 
New England Born & Raised said:
The job market and wages are not as good in the Providence area when compared to Boston. The job advantage however flips when it comes to housing as you can get more for far less in the Providence area. Working in Boston while living near Providence is a winning personal money strategy on both fronts.
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The problem of course is even though rents are cheaper in Providence... it's not x2/x3 the Commuter Rail prices cheaper.

SFH might be a different story. Although as mentioned that would be a long day commuting if you drove to one of the stations + the CR time.
 
bakgwailo said:
This always brings me back to what I think the vision on the Providence line should be: we have high-speed and regional rail making the run in 20-30 minutes, which is great. Unfortunately, they also don't stop at TF Green/the Airport. Then we have the MBTA doing the run with all the local stops taking 1-1.5 hours. I think, at least from the local MBTA side, moving into a fully electric world with 15-30-minute clock-facing schedules would be huge. With full-height platforms and electrification, I think the CR could slot in at a 30-45 minute run to Providence, and under an hour to TF Green (ideally 45 minutes). That opens up a big market of people in Boston going to Providence for a night out (and probably even more vice-versa), but also makes TF Green a viable alternative to Logan, and can long-term alleviate Logan's traffic and log-jam. With an electrified regional rail type service, TF Green becomes about as far (time-wise) as JFK is to Manhattan, and I would argue depending on where in Boston (and the Greater Boston Area), TF Green might become even more convenient than Logan with this level of service.
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I've heard an interesting idea floating around that an attempt to max out the Providence Line's capabilities like this would pay additional dividends for local transit, by giving RIPTA a rail-based spine around which they could orient their bus network vs. trying to build something like that on their own with the modern trolley proposal floated a few years back. The money thus saved could be used to plus up bus service, too.
 
I think that part of the reason for the expansion of commuter rail in RI was the hope that people might also use it to get in and out of Providence. I think that was definitely the hope for the Wickford Station as that is a long trip to Boston. Unfortunately this hope never really materialized. The TF Green Station was mainly for a connection for fliers to travel back and forth between the airport and Providence. The pawtucket station could be one of the few stations to actually have two way traffic. The commute to Boston from there is only an hour and the majority of its passengers will do that route. The station however is located at the city's bus transfer station as well. People looking to go into Providence will sometimes have a modal choice depending on the schedules. Given the station is in the downtown area close to the border with Central falls, there is a high density of residents within walking distance. Many of these residents may not have have vehicles and instead frequently use public transit. I would think given the choice of a 20 minute bus ride versus 5 minute train ride to downtown Providence, a good number of them might choose the train.

When I made a daily commute into Boston, I would board my morning train at S Attleboro just as a train heading south stopped on the other platform. I was always stuck by how empty the train cars were and how much better the T's revenues would be if they had more two way traffic. Less than ten persons exited the southbound train at South Attleboro each morning at around 7:20am with most of them getting onto a Hasbro shuttle as its HQ was 1 mile down Newport Avenue in Pawtucket. This was probably a higher number of south bound departees than most other stations along this line.
 
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New England Born & Raised said:
I think that part of the reason for the expansion of commuter rail in RI was the hope that people might also use it to get in and out of Providence. I think that was definitely the hope for the Wickford Station as that is a long trip to Boston. Unfortunately this hope never really materialized. The TF Green Station was mainly for a connection for fliers to travel back and forth between the airport and Providence. The pawtucket station could be one of the few stations to actually have two way traffic. The commute to Boston from there is only an hour and the majority of its passengers will do that route. The station however is located at the city's bus transfer station as well. People looking to go into Providence will sometimes have a modal choice depending on the schedules. Given the station is in the downtown area close to the border with Central falls, there is a high density of residents within walking distance. Many of these residents may not have have vehicles and instead frequently use public transit. I would think given the choice of a 20 minute bus ride versus 5 minute train ride to downtown Providence, a good number of them might choose the train.

When I made a daily commute into Boston, I would board my morning train at S Attleboro just as a train heading south stopped on the other platform. I was always stuck by how empty the train cars were and how much better the T's revenues would be if they had more two way traffic. Less than ten persons exited the southbound train at South Attleboro each morning at around 7:20am with most of them getting onto a Hasbro shuttle as its HQ was 1 mile down Newport Avenue in Pawtucket. This was probably a higher number of south bound departees than most other stations along this line.
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Was thinking about this today as a reverse commuter on the Franklin Line and the transit frequencies seem to be a primary driving force behind reserve commute ridership. Before the return of Foxboro service the Franklin Line was pretty bare every morning and evening but since its return and introduction of 30min headways to Norwood there's been double the passengers outbound each morning. There's also the fact that the 34E basically parallels the line to Walpole and every day the bus is full beyond Dedham during peak. If the Franklin Line stopped at Forest Hills for a few trips it'd probably get even more reverse commuters.

The two most significant cities in New England should have much more frequent bidirectional rail service if the T wants to attract more riders and state governments want to stimulate economic growth in their capitols.
 
Koopzilla24 said:
Was thinking about this today as a reverse commuter on the Franklin Line and the transit frequencies seem to be a primary driving force behind reserve commute ridership. Before the return of Foxboro service the Franklin Line was pretty bare every morning and evening but since its return and introduction of 30min headways to Norwood there's been double the passengers outbound each morning. There's also the fact that the 34E basically parallels the line to Walpole and every day the bus is full beyond Dedham during peak. If the Franklin Line stopped at Forest Hills for a few trips it'd probably get even more reverse commuters.
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This motivates my thought that, in a world where Fairmount becomes "pseudo rapid transit" line (say <=10 min headways), it's worth looking at extending the "rapid transit" zone to Dedham Corporate Center or Norwood.

It seems that most of these stations have very good ridership, especially given their location (and I was even using 2013 numbers to make this conclusion). Dedham Corporate Center also sets up a nice P&R station along a part of 128 that lacks quality ones (assuming it gets better service than Westwood), and is a good reverse commute destination as you said.

My philosophy is that we should push rapid transit to the around-128 zone as much as possible. And Fairmount/Franklin offers the easiest way to do that precisely because of its mode choice.
 
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