MBTA Construction Projects

Re: T construction news

The Spanish built a longer highway tunnel (10km) in less time (7 years) for much less money (~$US 5 billion) and created a nice park by the riverfront in Madrid on top.

They also do subway construction at ridiculously cheap prices, and really well. So I think it's a public works problem here in general. The Spanish are exceptional for advanced countries though. Japan is expensive, as is most of western Europe. Just not quite as bad as us.
 
Re: T construction news

Not sure how this will play out with the plan to reconfigure S T More Rd so it goes along the graveyard and onto BC's Brighton Campus. Also, it doesn't appear that the new platforms will be large enough to deal with post-sporting events boardings. I think an underground station under where More Hall currently stands would have been better (though more expensive).
 
Re: T construction news

They've spent over $800,000 to get to 15 percent design. That should be a hint that the project isn't going to be cheap.
 
Re: T construction news

The Spanish built a longer highway tunnel (10km) in less time (7 years) for much less money (~$US 5 billion) and created a nice park by the riverfront in Madrid on top.

They also do subway construction at ridiculously cheap prices, and really well. So I think it's a public works problem here in general. The Spanish are exceptional for advanced countries though. Japan is expensive, as is most of western Europe. Just not quite as bad as us.

Maybe the Spanish Government is better at managing projects than Governments in the US are?

Heck, the Park Street elevator STILL is not done. It's going on 2 plus years.
 
Re: T construction news

We really need an actual breakdown of what is actually costing so much. How much material costs? How much went to wages? How much the lamp post cost? How much was permitting and paperwork? An actual breakdown and comparison to historical pricing, market pricing, and international market pricing.

Up to this point. I have listen and agreed with the arguments about corruption and unions. More recently I heard of the argument of hiring multiple contractors leading to mercenary-ism. With the occasional news giving examples of suspicious deals, outright scandals, union sloth, and/or contractual gaming, they all sound plausible.

However, when I think about it. In the end, it is all speculation. We need actual numbers. Because how does a suburban train station is estimated to 20 million? Or even small projects like the elevator. How do you fall behind on something so small? I want an actual example of a day that shows what is done (or not done) that shows how that adds up.
 
Re: T construction news

You could start with Flyvberg.

Regarding Spain: I read a few articles from some engineers and managers on their methods and thoughts. I think a major difference is ethos. The Spanish engineers take very great pride in doing their work efficiently, competently, and at low cost. I think they have lower land acquisition costs too. And they may run a bit more roughshod over residents to get things done faster. I read some complaints from locals near that Madrid project saying that they were cut-off from the city in several ways for a while during construction.

Over here, I wouldn't necessarily go so far as to accuse contractors of outright corruption (at least, not most of the time), but there does seem to be plenty of the softer sort. When projects are viewed by certain companies as a means to feast on taxpayer dollars, and NIH syndrome runs rampant, I think it's effectively a form of corruption even if not illegal.

Added: Stephen Smith's article: US Taxpayers are Gouged on Mass Transit Costs. And a paper about the Madrid Metro's latest expansion, written by the CEO.
 
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Re: T construction news

Eh, highway costs are pretty high too. I think there was this project called the Big Dig which will ultimately cost $24 billion.

The real question is: why are American construction costs so high?

We do this every 6 months or so, Matthew. It cost $14.6B. Adding undiscounted, cumulative interest payments is absurd. When you tell people how much your house cost to build you don't add up all future mortgage payments.
And the $14.6B is remarkably close to the $13.8B that Bechtel warned it would cost as far back as 1994.

So it was the original $2B estimate that was broken. As for why it costs so much to build megaprojects in the US, I've found this analysis of the Big Dig to be helpful. (Hint, it's because of all the pork, mitigation, etc. that we cram into these projects).
 
Re: T construction news

I add them in because the Big Dig required such insanely abnormal financial engineering and shenanigans that I do not want to let that slide by omitting it from the final cost.

And $14.6B is still 300% of the Spanish costs for a similar project.
 
Re: T construction news

There's never been a comparable project to the Big Dig. Replacing an elevated highway with an underground one while it's actively being used, a massive cable-stayed bridge, the Storrow Connector, the City Square tunnel and CANA, the Ted Williams Tunnel under the harbor and the Pike cut and cover tunnel - these are all individual projects that were rolled into one. It can't be compared to any other project. That's not to say I disagree on the fact that U.S. projects cost way more than they do elsewhere, but the Big Dig and the Spanish project are apples and oranges.
 
Re: T construction news

They've spent over $800,000 to get to 15 percent design. That should be a hint that the project isn't going to be cheap.

The T could cut me a check for $100,000 and myself and my three friends could design and build it in two months. Its fucking a few dump trucks of concrete. Scratch the asenine maintence headache-horrible for our climate-cantelevered slab half roof thing for an actual shelter and it would be cheaper as well.

I'm getting seriously tired of the T coming up this these utterly disfunctional trendy looking station designs that not only are horrendously over budget but also mantence headhaces, look terrible after a single winter, and don't offer dick for protection from the elements.
 
Re: T construction news

The T could cut me a check for $100,000 and myself and my three friends could design and build it in two months. Its fucking a few dump trucks of concrete. Scratch the asenine maintence headache-horrible for our climate-cantelevered slab half roof thing for an actual shelter and it would be cheaper as well.

I'm getting seriously tired of the T coming up this these utterly disfunctional trendy looking station designs that not only are horrendously over budget but also mantence headhaces, look terrible after a single winter, and don't offer dick for protection from the elements.

It's a little more than that..

1. Gotta keep the old station open, its also a small yard too so that has to stay open. (i.e. "Project Management & Sequencing")

2. I'm sure the current track configuration doesn't allow for a cross over before what would be the new station, so that needs to be done. (basically a new crossover track needs to be added)

3. Abutters will complain about noise, so you can only work during the daytime.

4. Add in extras like electrical (gotta dig up the street for that to install conduit for electrical where there isn't one), drain/sewer (again, not already there, so its gotta be added)

5. Curb Appeal. Once the new station is done, gotta fix all the curbs surrounding the new station plus new crosswalks, ADA Compliant ramps,. etc etc. (It's been a couple of years since I've been to BC Station so I'm not sure how the street-scape looks these days)

6. I'm sure there's some extras thrown in there like repaving of Comm Ave (around that area), demo of the old station, reconfiguration of the yard, street lights (signals), etc etc etc.

It adds up after a while.

As far as the station design, the T is right on par with station design (new stations) with what's 'hip' today. Look at any recent Light Rail construction and you'll see the stops are pretty much the same. The T is just following industry standards (as they should!)

Now down to the real question, why do construction projects cost so much in the US?

1. Greed. Yep, I think Contractors and Construction Companies see Goverment Project and see a cash machine and inflate prices.

But that's not the only reason.

2. Design. It's not as simple as laying down track and buying up some ROW's. See my list above. It adds up.

3. ADA Compliance. This can add alot to a cost of a project. Elevators aren't cheap, and no longer can transportation have narrow spaces or 'cut corners' to squeeze more station in (or an staircase or something), everything needs to meet and/or exceed ADA complaince

4. YIMBY/NIMBY effects. Many transit projects skyrocket in cost because of Y/N effects. People want certian things (i.e. an extra entrace here, escalator there, sound barrier here).. it adds up. Add some delays in construction.. either in station redesign, or noise mitigation, or general mitigation.. people need to paid for each delay. It adds up.

5. EPA Regulations. Yup, this adds to cost. Look at this highway project in San Antonio Texas for example. Its an entirely new interchange that will need to be torn down and re-designed before it opened. Why? Because they found an endangered spider living a cavern below one of the new on-ramps. Now they can't use the interchange, and since the spider cannot be moved, the entire interchange needs to be re-designed and re-constructed to take in consideration this spider.

6. Gov't Regulation. We all remember the Boeing-Vertrol LVR Cars on the Green Line. In the 70s, Gov't said the T and MUNI must team up and build cars meeting these specifications and be manufactured by this company. Guess what happened? These were the worst cars ever rolling down the green line. (and some of the most expensive.. AND as is, the T and SFMuni ended up having to sink millions in renovations to these cars in the early 80s just to keep them functional)

7. ROW Issues. Sometimes the Gov't needs to seize land or buy it. This can take years.. decades to complete. (i.e. Look at Fwy I-105 in LA for an example of how long this can take). Guess who really benefits? The Lawyers, The lawyers drive up costs trying to win these cases and dealing with appeals.

8. Construction "Unknowns" - This can cause the most cost overruns. Why? Because the minute you start digging in the ground you may find something that will affect construction (and or drastically change the way construction squences). A good example is a hidden gas main or water line under somewhere. OR Blasting that caused foundation cracking (as what happened in Porter and Davis Squares in the late 70s/early 80s).. gotta pay those too.

It just all adds up. Cha-Ching.

I'm sure I'm forgetting a few.. but I've had this conversation with folks before. As I said, its a little more than slapping down some track and ties and some cement blocks and call it a station.
 
Re: T construction news

/\ Why are you trying to confuse readers with facts? You must be new here. haha (Welcome, btw)
 
Re: T construction news

FWIW, the project manager says that the $20 million is all-inclusive. Station construction, trackwork, "soft costs", ped safety improvements, etc.
 
Re: T construction news

Hell...BU Central and East were closed the whole time they were being renovated and a temp station that was nothing more than $50K in asphalt with a chain-link fence served both stops at once on the in-between block while they were bloating those rebuilds to oblivion. I don't even know what was doing it. The stations would sit idle in half-built state for weeks on end before any construction workers stirred...while all the while the B ran MORE efficiently with the 1 better-positioned temp stop replacing the two.

I can only guess that it was some D) All of The Above situation that was larding it on there. For 2 glorified bus stops.
 
Re: T construction news

I add them in because the Big Dig required such insanely abnormal financial engineering and shenanigans that I do not want to let that slide by omitting it from the final cost.

Totally understand. And I think it's valid to talk about the cost of financing the Big Dig. But it bothers me that people now say it cost $22B to BUILD the CA/T. It didn't. The Globe and Herald headlined that number because people like contemptuously guffawing at the Big Dig. It sold papers. Now people take that as the construction cost. The distinction between financing and building has been lost.

(Notwithstanding the fact that the $22B construction plus financing figure is dubious to begin with. Simply adding up future, undiscounted interest payments is not even a proxy for the true cost of financing the project).
 
Re: T construction news

Well, I did say "will ultimately cost $24 billion." Which I think is the correct way of phrasing it.

Actually, since you mention the CA/T, that is only one part of the Big Dig, and I'm not entirely sure how much that would have been alone. I wish the costs were broken down more. I think part of the reason they did group together so much was to get the swill mixed in with the good stuff. For example, I think the TWT stands on its own as a decent project. But the CA/T is much more dubious, from a cost/benefit perspective. Talking about the Big Dig groups them together and it's hard to separate the two; and I think that was done on purpose.
 
Re: T construction news

Hell...BU Central and East were closed the whole time they were being renovated and a temp station that was nothing more than $50K in asphalt with a chain-link fence served both stops at once on the in-between block while they were bloating those rebuilds to oblivion. I don't even know what was doing it. The stations would sit idle in half-built state for weeks on end before any construction workers stirred...while all the while the B ran MORE efficiently with the 1 better-positioned temp stop replacing the two.

I can only guess that it was some D) All of The Above situation that was larding it on there. For 2 glorified bus stops.

Why isn't this done more? In general I think all a Green Line stop should be, on a branch, is asphalt and a fence, maybe a bus style shelter. The only way to justify a $20m station is if it was a pre-paid station with fare gates. The T has no money but it doesn't act like it with capital projects.
 
Re: T construction news

Why isn't this done more? In general I think all a Green Line stop should be, on a branch, is asphalt and a fence, maybe a bus style shelter. The only way to justify a $20m station is if it was a pre-paid station with fare gates. The T has no money but it doesn't act like it with capital projects.

You must be new to mass.. ;) This is what they WERE before they renovated the station, which wasn't too long ago.

Most of them didn't even have a fence and the platforms were very narrow. I remember waiting for a train at Packard's Corner one day and stepping back and almost falling into oncoming traffic on Comm Ave.

The other issue is knowing which stop is what, prior most stops on the B and E line had no signage. You had to know that that strip of asphalt was Harvard Ave (by what cross street you were at).

I like what the T has done. Its simple and adds to the landscape and surroundings. And I said above, the T is just following industry standards.
 
Re: T construction news

Strip of asphalt station:
8003278556_a4f4079ba4.jpg

:)
 
Re: T construction news

Strip of asphalt station:
IMG REMOVED
:)

Too Narrow and not ADA Compliant.

The issue you folks are forgetting is the T was sued about ADA compliance issues. Not only that, this also has to do with the grandfather'd issue.

In many cases any public station/building/highrise/dollhouse built after a certain date (I think its 1990) must meet ADA Compliance. So the minute the T breaths on updating stations, it *has* to take in consideration for ADA access issues. BUT if the station/building/highrise/dollhouse is left untouched and it original format (un-modified in anyway) as it was prior to (1990), it doesn't have to be upgraded to accommodate ADA Compliance.

I'm sure you all are dying to ask.. "Well why didn't the T just leave well enough alone and not remodel the stations".

Some of it was track work (to accommodate the Type 8's (the Breda cards)
Some of it was because they were sued for ADA compliance issues.
Some of it was safety issues (again, some of these old asphalt stops were very narrow and had virtually no guards)
Some of it was beautification (Many new stops have landscaping, trees, flowers, etc)
Some of it was double duty projects (i.e. Much of the E Line was rebuilt because Huntington Ave was being rebuilt by the City at the same time)

And some of it is just the T's commitment to modernizing the system. Many of those outdoor stations on the B and E line hadn't been updated since the 1950s (which pre-dates the MBTA), it was just time.
 
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