MBTA Fare System (Charlie, AFC 2.0, Zone, Discounts)

[jass]

How great would it be if the next generation of lottery terminals could also top up Charlie Cards? Those blue things are in practically every single convenience store/gas station/packie/grocery store across the Commonwealth (with PLENTY of coverage in less economically-advantaged areas), and they all tie remotely into a central government-run system to securely make sales.

If they're currently designing a replacement, maybe it'd at least be worth getting the T on one of those calls? The lottery and the T are both Massachusetts government entities, after all...

And every Mass ID / Drivers License should have an embedded Charlie Chip.

But working together? Crazy talk.

 

[datadyne007]

Here's why the baseline cost is so much more than larger peer systems. MBTA contract is more comprehensive than all of them. Includes fare gates, on street vending, credit card transaction fees, etc plus maintenance for 10 years at $30/m year that T would be spending anyway.

Because of this, you can't really compare the T contract to peers.

 

[JumboBuc]

^ We need new fare gates?

 

[datadyne007]

^ We need new fare gates?

Yes, desperately. The S&B ones we have are horrendous, break all the time and are too narrow. The new ones at GC & Assembly are even worse than the original models.

 

[ant8904]

Assuming everything in the slides are correct, it looks like the proposal is similar to Chicago, except the MBTA chose the total package service with every single feature included.

 

[JumboBuc]

Yes, desperately. The ones we have are horrendous, break all the time and are too narrow.

Aren't they like 10 years old?

What makes them "horrendous"? Do they really break more often then their peers? By what standard are they too narrow? I'm honestly asking this, not trying to be a jerk...

In my 7-or-so years as a daily T rider, across all 4 lines, I honestly can't recall a single time I've had an issue with a fare gate. Sometimes I'll see one out of service, but then I just use its neighbor. This is the same experience I've had in all of my travels, using other city's gates. I imagine that even with brand new gates, occasionally there'll be broken ones.

And if the new ones are indeed "worse than the original models", what makes us think the new new ones will be better?

 

[datadyne007]

Aren't they like 10 years old?

What makes them "horrendous"? Do they really break more often then their peers? By what standard are they too narrow? I'm honestly asking this, not trying to be a jerk...

In my 7-or-so years as a daily T rider, across all 4 lines, I honestly can't recall a single time I've had an issue with a fare gate. Sometimes I'll see one out of service, but then I just use its neighbor. This is the same experience I've had in all of my travels, using other city's gates. I imagine that even with brand new gates, occasionally there'll be broken ones.

Scheidt & Bachmann really screwed us with Charlie, partially because it was on the cutting edge of technology/reinventing the wheel when AFC 1.0/Charlie was pursued in the early 00s. The technology is all proprietary and impossible to modify, hence the lack of implementation of on ferries & CR. The T studied just revamping AFC 1.0 with newer features, but it was decided against due to the enormous costs and equipment shortfalls.

The gates have extremely high fail rates and they fail open (required by code to ensure egress in an emergency) leading to high levels of fare evasion. I see this daily at State & Maverick. Also, at Maverick alone, there are a number of gates that won't accept CharlieTickets due to broken mechanisms. This is especially promblematic at stations with small 2-gate entrances like Back Bay (Copley Place underpass) and Central Square. Often, both fare gates will not be accepting CharlieTickets, requiring users to leave that fare lobby and go to an alternate one.

The new gates also will not retract into the housing, meaning the housing can be dramatically reduced in thickness thus providing better clearances even at the non-ADA gates. I frequently see people getting stuck rolling luggage through the tiny fare gates at South Station and Airport and have experienced this myself.

 

[bakgwailo]

Aren't they like 10 years old?

What makes them "horrendous"? Do they really break more often then their peers? By what standard are they too narrow? I'm honestly asking this, not trying to be a jerk...

In my 7-or-so years as a daily T rider, across all 4 lines, I honestly can't recall a single time I've had an issue with a fare gate. Sometimes I'll see one out of service, but then I just use its neighbor. This is the same experience I've had in all of my travels, using other city's gates. I imagine that even with brand new gates, occasionally there'll be broken ones.

And if the new ones are indeed "worse than the original models", what makes us think the new new ones will be better?

I have had issues at Ashmont and downton crossing with fare gates and have seen broken/out of order ones at Assembly and other stations. Narrow I believe is referring to strollers and wheel chairs - the new gates are being designed to better accommodate them.

 

[jass]

Aren't they like 10 years old?

What makes them "horrendous"? Do they really break more often then their peers? By what standard are they too narrow? I'm honestly asking this, not trying to be a jerk...

In my 7-or-so years as a daily T rider, across all 4 lines, I honestly can't recall a single time I've had an issue with a fare gate. Sometimes I'll see one out of service, but then I just use its neighbor. This is the same experience I've had in all of my travels, using other city's gates. I imagine that even with brand new gates, occasionally there'll be broken ones.

And if the new ones are indeed "worse than the original models", what makes us think the new new ones will be better?

And, uh, isnt MBTA going with THE SAME EXACT VENDOR? Cubic?

And I agree. They work fine. They also look identical to the NJTransit machines which work fine.

"Too narrow." If you have bags, used the EXTRA WIDE GATE available at every station.

Scheidt & Bachmann really screwed us with Charlie...The technology is all proprietary and impossible to modify, hence the lack of implementation of on ferries & CR. T.

That sounds like management shitting the bed with a garbage contract.

Are you confident that the MBTA management of 2017 will not shit the bed?

Who did SEPTA award to? They went out in 2011, and and of 2017....the tokens are still there.

Im guessing its the same folks, right?


Oh, and BTW, you know whats a better package, funding wise?

NOT BUYING A BRAND NEW FARE SYSTEM EVERY 10 FUCKING YEARS


And fare evasion complaints are the biggest crop of shit on earth.

Oh no, lets "solve" $5 million a year in missed fares by giving $500m to a contractor!

 

[datadyne007]

And, uh, isnt MBTA going with THE SAME EXACT VENDOR? Cubic?

This is just false. Cubic was not involved with Charlie. The system was designed by Scheidt & Bachmann. The CharlieCards themselves were produced by Gemalto.

 

[jass]

This is just false. Cubic was not involved with Charlie. The system was designed by Scheidt & Bachmann. The CharlieCards themselves were produced by Gemalto.

I am more than happy to be incorrect. Looks like Cubic bid for Charlie but lost. But did win Chicago, although that project did face issues.

Who is doing SEPTA, because they have shit the bed hard.

 

[datadyne007]

Are you confident that the MBTA management of 2017 will not shit the bed?

Yes, I am. This is a design-build contract being done through a P3. I just listened to an hour long presentation about the contract and penalty structure for missing targets. This is going to happen.

Who did SEPTA award to? They went out in 2011, and and of 2017....the tokens are still there.

Im guessing its the same folks, right?

Seriously what is wrong with you? You're wrong again. SEPTA Key was provided by ACS Transportation Solutions Group (TSG), a Xerox Company. SEPTA Key was doomed from the beginning and the T is doing everything opposite of SEPTA. The T is pursuing a remarkably user-centered design, even in the initial sketch phase.

 

[cadetcarl]

I, for one, would love to be able to tap in and out with my phone. "No one wants" is a shaky way to found an argument for obvious reasons.

I have an updating monthly work pass, but used to miss trains because of waiting in line to add value to my card at fare machines; this would eliminate that entire interaction for a good chunk of users, too. These are small problems to have and overall I think the current experience at least for the bus and subway zone is pretty smooth, but if we have to spend a ton of money to do this anyway I don't see why we shouldn't get all the bells and whistles.

 

[bakgwailo]

Can we also remember that we further got screwed by the Charlie System by having both the tickets and the cards, which is ridiculous. As to modifying the CharlieCard/Ticket system, as already pointed out, it is highly proprietary and would probably cost just as much in change orders to go back to the company to add features to it (if the company even wants to agree to do anything at all). Also, don't forget about all of the great security issues with it over the years.

 

[jass]

Yes, I am. This is a design-build contract being done through a P3. I just listened to an hour long presentation about the contract and penalty structure for missing targets. This is going to happen.

And what about changes?

MBTA made a big shit about not being able to change anything after the fact because all changes required paying the company to do it for them.

I am asking, what changed at MBTA management that is preventing the contractor from taking them to the cleaners in a similar manner?

Why are you so confident that SEPTA Key was doomed from the beginning? What did you know that SEPTA management did not when they signed that contract?

Also:

The T is pursuing a remarkably user-centered design, even in the initial sketch phase.

I am sorry, have you seen their mockup for the bus fare machine? It looks like a customer nightmare.

Never mind that "no cash" is extremely unfriendly to local low-income communities and hurts tourists that dont speak english.


And again, what exactly is the cost-benefit here?

Oh, yay, we get easier transfers from commuter rail to local bus. Or, you know, just show the app to the driver?

And, uh, apparently people with strollers can now enter through any gate rather than the one on the left.

Ok.

Are there really not smarter ways to spend $723 million?

 

[datadyne007]

You can continue to yell at clouds. The rest of us will enjoy a modern, unified payment system.

The $723 million number really shouldn't be used either, as Stephanie Pollack rightly pointed out. This is more of a $423 million procurement contract plus the $30 million x 10 years that the T would be paying with Charlie or AFC 2.0.

 

[jass]

Also, has anyone compared the pros and cons of moving to the NJ Transit system?

Basically, they went from MBTA circa 1998 (paper tickets, paper transfers, cash) to letting you do everything on your phone.

You can buy a monthly pass, a weekly pass, or a single ride on your phone.

If prompted, you show it to the staff (PoP). On buses, you still board from the front (stupid management), but light rail, commuter rail, and subway is all door boarding.

At one key station (Secaucus), old fare machines were retrofitted to read the phone screen. This is done because the trains at that point are too crowded to do PoP checks.

Zero expenditure on new FVMs

Zero expenditure on gates

Zero expenditure on NFC cards

Zero expenditure on tapping screens

Basically, the cost of equipment (ie, a smart phone) is on the customer.

Oh, and the app was developed in-house.

People can continue to pay cash and use the old ticket machines which is useful for those without smart phones.

It doesnt FEEL as fancy, but it sure as hell cost them less than ALMOST A BILLION.

You can continue to yell at clouds. The rest of us will enjoy a modern, unified payment system.

Ah yes, the "I dont actually have any data so Ill avoid all questions" response.

Great talk!

 

[millerm277]

Also, has anyone compared the pros and cons of moving to the NJ Transit system?

I'm from NJ and have no idea what you're talking about by trying to use it as a positive example.

Basically, they went from MBTA circa 1998 (paper tickets, paper transfers, cash) to letting you do everything on your phone.

You can buy a monthly pass, a weekly pass, or a single ride on your phone.

If prompted, you show it to the staff (PoP). On buses, you still board from the front (stupid management), but light rail, commuter rail, and subway is all door boarding.

First: The app is not very good, although it's improved a little recently. Most of the ridership is still using the physical tickets.

Light rail - Well, the River Line isn't supported in the app that I've ever seen. HBLR and NLR are and do operate with 100% PoP.

Buses - There's quite a few people paying cash on board or using paper tickets on most buses, which is why the front door boarding is required. Also, half the buses are longer distance routes which only have a front door.

Commuter rail - Well, not at the low-level platform stations where only half the doors have the stairs. Also, pretty much every commuter rail system works that way. On NJT conductors check/punch tickets on board (or take cash w/surcharge for people who don't have a ticket).

Subway - NJT doesn't operate a subway.

And there's zero app/fare/whatever integration with the 4+ other systems in the area (MNRR, LIRR, MTA, PATH, ferries), which is even worse than how the MBTA Commuter Rail + Bus/Subway are poorly integrated at present.

At one key station (Secaucus), old fare machines were retrofitted to read the phone screen. This is done because the trains at that point are too crowded to do PoP checks.

And they're awful whether it's with a ticket or with a phone, because it's a finicky QR code reader and not anything good. It's fortunate the station has an huge number of fare gates for the passenger volume actually going through the barriers. (Most passengers are transferring and not exiting the station)

Zero expenditure on new FVMs

Well...it was only 5 years ago they finished adding FVMs to outfit every single CR station on the system with them so they could slap a surcharge on paying cash on board/cut down on cash payments.

NJT's paid to have them even at their Silver Hill/Hastings/Plimptonville/Prides Crossing level stations. Is that far enough in the past to "not count"?

Also, NJT's contract for the FVMs and their upkeep isn't exactly cheap either. Signed in 2006, $188m for 12 years of upkeep plus the new machines/modifications of old machines. I'm sure various station changes have probably added a chunk of $ on top of that as well.

And it certainly doesn't covers the number of things that the MBTA's new contract covers.


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In short, while adding the app wasn't a bad thing for NJT because it is useful to some, it has accomplished very little in terms of speeding up boarding, saving money, simplifying operations, unifying fare payment to the average customer, or anything else along those lines in my view.

I hope they join up with the Metrocard replacement in the future.

 

[jass]

First: The app is not very good, although it's improved a little recently

Aside from battery use, what problems do you have with the app?

Most of the ridership is still using the physical tickets.

Management issue. Very small promotion. No carrot or stick to move people off cash.

Subway - NJT doesn't operate a subway.

And there's zero app/fare/whatever integration with the 4+ other systems in the area (MNRR, LIRR, MTA, PATH, ferries), which is even worse than how the MBTA Commuter Rail + Bus/Subway are poorly integrated at present.

Yup, it's hot garbage, but most of it isnt their fault. They COULD and SHOULD do more with the ferries, but they only have joint ticketing with one line.

At least an NJT monthly rail ticket gives you bus access. MTA doesnt even do that with MN or LIRR.

In short, while adding the app wasn't a bad thing for NJT because it is useful to some, it has accomplished very little in terms of speeding up boarding, saving money, simplifying operations, unifying fare payment to the average customer, or anything else along those lines in my view.

But thats a management issue.

They could immediately make all buses all-door boarding, allowing folks with mobile tickets or monthlies to enter the back. It's not a technology limitation, it's a "what if the poors steal" limitation - same as how Boston stopped opening all the green line doors.

Which is odd because the light rail lines, including the Trenton-Camden line, which are two of the poorest cities in the country, is PoP.

But it absolutely simplified operations and helped the customers.

Previously bus fares were $1.60 (1 zone) or $2.55 (2 zones) which seem to be designed to purposely discourage ridership, because who the hell carries around bundles of nickles to make these trips happen?

With the app, you just but your bus ticket on your credit card, whenever, wherever, and youre good to go. And boarding is faster than tapping.

If they started adopting management best practices - like a discount for using a mobile ticket (like theres a charlie card discount) more people would witch over real fast.


But the point isn't the shit management, it's that mobile payment accomplishes almost everything this stupid plan does, at 1/7 the cost.

 

[Jahvon09]

Those trolleys look spruced up! Almost like new!!