MBTA Red Line / Blue Line Connector

Arlington said:
Where are all these Blue Line riders whose lives will be transformed? Boston. (Maverick, Airport, Wood Island, Orient Heights, Suffolk Downs, and half of Orient Heights). And that's where all the TIF should come from, since that's a whole lotta Boston that'll go up in value.
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You forget about all the Cambridge rider, not to mention the substantial number of suburban park and ride folks. Red-Blue addresses systemic issues. It is not some local infill station that only helps people who live within a half mile radius.
The "next Seaport" should be the Maverick/East Boston Waterfront. TIF revenues there should go to toward paying for Red-Blue. Heck, it could be the next biotech hub if connections to Cambridge are easy.
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Now here you present a better reason for Boston to make that investment. If it brings greater utility to the Blue Line, it makes land in East Boston more attractive for large scale development.

[eta]
To be clear, I very much agree that this region drops the ball on local funding. When I look at what is going on in L.A., much of it local funded, I am in awe. I don't know why it doesn't happen here, perhaps the municipal level is weaker here than in some other places.
 
Once we get the Blue Line to connect to Charles/MGH, maybe we could start imagining extending the Blue Line into Back Bay. :)
 
re: ^
ive never really understood the idea floated on here for this - doing this would route the BL thru the esplanade or resi part of back bay... no growth here and no real need for stops here. a parallel GL thru business side of back bay would be much better, i would think, for redundant service.
 
The only reason to run the Blue Line through the Back Bay is to get somewhere, so that it can actually act as an express route and take pressure off the Green Line.

The usual suggestion is converting the Highland Branch from light rail to heavy rail, but that's actually a poor idea for several reasons. Worst, it prevents the Riverside facility from being used as the Green Line's main maintenance facility. It passes through medium-density residential areas punctuated with small village centers - perfect for light rail, but not dense enough to support heavy rail - and converting from light to heavy rail stations would cost a mint. Additionally, the grade crossings at Needham would prevent it from becoming a Blue Line flank, thus essentially forcing the Needham Line to continue taking up NEC slots or a much longer Orange Line extension that could still only reach Needham Junction.

Straight up the Pike is another possibility, but that only doubles a DMU route that could be done for far, far cheaper.

A better idea would be to hit Allston, Newton Corner or Arsenal, Watertown, Waltham, and 128. There are multiple routes for each segment - under the Pike or Comm/Brighton, along 20 or Pike/Galen, and along 20 or following the Watertown Branch ROW. It hits a number of high-density, hard-to-serve areas all at once, and relieves pressure on Kenmore and the B Branch.
 
I think an express Blue Line from Charles to Kenmore would be worthwhile in and of itself. Would relieve the Boylston Street Subway and provide a rapid link between Downtown and the Fenway area. Just because we can't figure out where it should go after Kenmore doesn't mean we should oppose a Kenmore extension itself.

(Also, it seems more manageable to treat a Charles-Kenmore expansion as a second phase of a long-term project; leave the Kenmore-west stuff for phase three.)

My personal preference, though, is to extend the Blue Line under Brookline Avenue down to Riverway or Brookline Village to meet the Green Line, with an intermediate stop at Longwood Avenue. Divert the D over Huntington Avenue, swallowing up the E. The existing Highland Line between Brookline Village and Kenmore could be abandoned, or maintained with a small shuttle service.

Benefits:
  • Consolidate Green Line service; with only three branches instead of four, there'd be no excuse not to bring light rail down to Dudley Square
  • Provide more direct service to the LMA; being on the other side of the river, the current Highland Branch alignment does not serve the area as well
  • Express link, via the Esplanade and Charles/MGH, between the LMA and Downtown (as well as the airport)

The major downside would be the Highland Branch being forced to run on the street for several blocks. So this would probably need to occur in conjunction with either a) an extension of the Huntington Ave. Subway, or b) an extension of the trolley reservation. In any case, there would probably also need to be some stop consolidation on Huntington, as well. [EDIT: actually, looking at the map again, I bet you could swing it by installing proper priority signaling and ditching Fenwood Road, and maybe Mission Park; it's not that long of a stretch.]

As to the other possibilities: I agree that a full Blue-eats-D conversion is a poor idea, though I understand the appeal.

I really like the idea of a Blue Line extension to Watertown and Waltham via Allston, but it just seems so implausible. You'd have to build a massive subway through Allston/Brighton (unless you elevate it, which I would not oppose). It's a little easier once you get over the Pike, 'cause you can use the Bemis branch alignment, but that's far from perfect itself, having multiple grade crossings (likely necessitating another subway) and lots of curves. An elevated would, once again, minimize these problems, but I think it'd be a lot harder to get that to fly out there than it would even in Allston.

A subway or elevated down Brookline Ave just seems more feasible to me than that (regrettably).
 
i like it, im moving this over onto crazy transit pitches
 
If the Blue Line were to be extended into Back Bay from the Connector, the stations would have to be in the area above Commonwealth Avenue from the Public Garden
 
Arlington said:
Who to lead? Mayor Walsh, channeling Rahm Emmanuel.


Harvard both via its MGH connection and MIT, for whom access to Kendall gets very much better should both chip in as Cambridge freeholders.

I'd say the problem if you're Mayor Walsh rounding up backers and shaking down landowners is that MIT and "mother Harvard" are not immediately in his city. Still, it is worth a try.

You are Mayor of Boston, pull yourself together. Go. Confront the problem. Fight! Win!
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Arlington the T doesn't work that way

the T is part of the Mass DOT and the funds for both operations and capital come from:
  • the Operating Funds include:
    • Farebox revenue and other generated revenues Advertisements, parking, etc
    • Local Assessments -- a levy on the cities and towns in the district -- controlled by the Advisory Board with representatives of all the cities and towns
    • State Funds -- dedicated sales tax revenue 1%
    • Federal Transit Operating assistance
  • Major Capital project funding:
    • Federal funds
    • State assistance
    • Authority bonds
    • private development contributions -- e.g. Assembly Sq., New Balance
 
The T took Federal Realty's money to help pay for Assembly. The T has accepted a new CR station from New Balance. North Point cut a special deal to move Lechmere station. The T partners just fine. You can't tell me the T would be constitutionally unable to take money from MGH and Boston if they offered.

If Boston had will and imagination similar to developers and other municipalities,with well located under-used parcels like E. Boston piers and Suffolk Downs, Boston should be able to come up with a plan to use PPP money to jump start Or co-pay Red-Blue.
 
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Arlington said:
The T took Federal Realty's money to help pay for Assembly. The T has accepted a new CR station from New Balance. North Point cut a special deal to move Lechmere station. The T partners just fine. You can't tell me the T would be constitutionally unable to take money from MGH and Boston if they offered.

If Boston had will and imagination similar to developers and other municipalities,with well located under-used parcels like E. Boston piers and Suffolk Downs, Boston should be able to come up with a plan to use PPP money to jump start Or co-pay Red-Blue.
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Arlington -- T can take money from developers and possibly other interested parties

Taking money from Boston or Cambridge is an entirely different matter as Boston is a member of the T district and hence is already on the hook for a contribution


MBTA Advisory Board website
http://www.mbtaadvisoryboard.org/
OUR MISSION is to provide public oversight of the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority as well as technical assistance and information on behalf of the 175 community members of the Advisory Board and the transit riding public.
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If the T takes money from Boston for a project benefiting Boston -- all rest of the district [174 other cities and towns] will cry foul to their legislators -- who out number those of Boston by many to 1. It will look as if Boston has bought a special status by an additional payment

So the Boston payments not only wont but can't happen

On the idea of Mass General -- that might be a problem due to the parent Partners status as a not-for-profit entity both with MA and the Feds

Your best bet would be a coalition of the willing to come up with the cash
-- but your potential contributors list is limited to for-profit corporations and possibly Massport
 
Are you playing the "how wrong can I be game" again, whigh? The other municipalities won't give the least shit if Boston provides extra funds for a project that benefits Boston. It doesn't hurt Framingham or Milton in the least if Boston gives an extra 200M in 2019 to build the Red-Blue connector.

Towns regularly fund commuter rail improvements all the time. No one's crying foul that Natick and Winchester spent town money on designing new stations. Rhode Island pays the T for out-of-district service, and MassDOT pays it for out-of-district engineering.
 
-MGH
- MIT
- Harvard
- Chiafaro (aquarium tower)
- E. Boston Piers
- Airport / Massport
- Orient Heights TOD
- Suffolk Downs TOD

TIF / BID / Blue line improvement district.

It would make the Blue Line sexy.

If Revere would add Beachmont and Wonderland and Dog Track site, all the better.
At some point, the money would talk just like it has in all those other local upgrades
 
The EGE said:
Are you playing the "how wrong can I be game" again, whigh? The other municipalities won't give the least shit if Boston provides extra funds for a project that benefits Boston. It doesn't hurt Framingham or Milton in the least if Boston gives an extra 200M in 2019 to build the Red-Blue connector.

Towns regularly fund commuter rail improvements all the time. No one's crying foul that Natick and Winchester spent town money on designing new stations. Rhode Island pays the T for out-of-district service, and MassDOT pays it for out-of-district engineering.
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EGE -- the problem is that the most ideas for Red-Blue -- go far beyond just a relatively simple termination of the Blue Line at Charles -- essentially a relocated Bowdoin Station with a free transfer to the existing Red Line Charles

Most of the discussion involves a further extension of the Blue Line for example under the Esplanade or under Commonwealth Ave -- this becomes a project of another magnitude compared to just fixing up a suburban CR station -- we are talking of the order $1B

Even the minimum connection at Charles is complex and expensive despite the short distance down Cambridge Street. Today in the ADA-era any new construction involving a multi-level station involves a lot of digging and underground work including major escalators and elevators, emergency egress, etc. -- perhaps not $1B -- but certainly more than $100M

Boston would not come up with that much money - as a result the project would be competing with all manner of other projects having direct effects and benefits for the suburban dominated legislature and Advisory council
 
Arlington said:
-MGH
- MIT
- Harvard
- Chiafaro (aquarium tower)
- E. Boston Piers
- Airport / Massport
- Orient Heights TOD
- Suffolk Downs TOD

TIF / BID / Blue line improvement district.

It would make the Blue Line sexy.

If Revere would add Beachmont and Wonderland and Dog Track site, all the better.
At some point, the money would talk just like it has in all those other local upgrades
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Arlington:

If you realistically desire to cross directly from the Red to the Blue -- soon and for a reasonable cost -- the solution has been long identified -- its to take advantage of what is already under Washington Street

Just as you can leave the Green Line and walk directly to the Orange Line at DTX by walking through the Winter Street pedestrian Tunnel -- you should be able to leave the Red at DTX walk through the Orange part of the Station enter a pedestrian tunnel [possibly with moving walkways just as you connect terminals at Logan] and exit to the platform of the Orange / Blue at State

As has been pointed out by F-line and others the actual distance is microscopic -- although threading the tunnel through the other things in the vicinity might take advantage of modern 3-D CAD tools to design it -- and automated walkway - escalator technology used in some German airports

Specifically the solution might be two 1-way passenger tubes each with with a moving walkway with escalator [that can accommodate a wheel chair] -- and a standard sidewalk with lights and ventilation all packaged in a 6 foot wide by 8 foot tall box -- and then the whole thing threaded through the other underground infrastructure and possibly some basements
 
whighlander said:
...perhaps not $1B -- but certainly more than $100M

Boston would not come up with that much money - as a result the project would be competing with all manner of other projects having direct effects and benefits for the suburban dominated legislature and Advisory council
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First, the real problem is that "they" (the State, as counter-party to the CLF settlement) let the environmental and engineering work go stale. Boston should have paid to keep it limping forward (I think construction-engineering phases were next)

Even now, that opportunity to push design forward (or give the appearance of progress) for pennies on the construction dollar is there, and the readier the drawings are, the greater the opportunity to find funds--private, city, state, or Federal.

In fact, we think the State dropped the design process precisely because designed things tend to get built--but they'd deny that, and say they simply didn't have the money for further design (which we think to be nonsense). Boston could have (and can still) call their bluff by offering to pick up 100% of the cost of design through being "shovel ready" and whatever periodic tweaks it'd take to keep it ever-ready.

Had it been shovel-ready (or even had a local sponsor) it might have advanced in 2009 (Kind of the way Maryland took all its HSR/Stimulus funding in the form of engineering for the B&P Tunnel replacement and new BWI rail station--and got no "new iron" anywhere)

Whether the solution is an ADA-compliant palace on Cambridge Street or a couple of Moving Sidewalks in tunnels near DTX, the point is that BOSTON itself can build pressure for these solutions by showing the same sort of initiative that cities and towns all over America--and all over the T district--have shown by actually figuring out a way to tap city, institutional, and developer $ in a co-pay or we'll-pay plan.
 
whighlander said:
EGE -- the problem is that the most ideas for Red-Blue -- go far beyond just a relatively simple termination of the Blue Line at Charles -- essentially a relocated Bowdoin Station with a free transfer to the existing Red Line Charles

Most of the discussion involves a further extension of the Blue Line for example under the Esplanade or under Commonwealth Ave -- this becomes a project of another magnitude compared to just fixing up a suburban CR station -- we are talking of the order $1B
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What are you talking about? The only people talking about bringing the BL past MGH are here on aB.
 
BussesAin'tTrains said:
What are you talking about? The only people talking about bringing the BL past MGH are here on aB.
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Yeah it is all Crazy Transit Pitch past MGH, but at least we are joined by the occasional Wentworth student project and the Bostinno echo-chamber. Sad.

Past MGH you have the more conventional problem that the MBTA doesn't have the will or money to tear up the Back Bay's NIMBY's backyards to mostly benefit commuters from Brookline and Newton. My pitch for sunken-tube tunnels to MIT (Mem Drive @ Mass Av...and the on to Allston) is crazy too but bets that PCB laden mud is less threatening (and MIT more welcoming) than pearl clutchers.
 
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