MBTA Red Line / Blue Line Connector

An aside, but, I've always wondered how the encroachment happened? I would think the ROW is owned by the state, did a developer just go, oh well, let's build on it anyways when they designed and built those apartments? Serious question as for even basic projects on my own properties I've had to have surveys and a bunch of things done for the City of Boston to make sure things were on the up and up on property lines. Also, why is there seemingly no repercussions for having built on the ROW? Or is the ROW here owned by Revere and Revere just decided to let them build on it?
 
TheRatmeister said:
Honestly I think a better alternative is a flyover near Diamond Creek and then to join CR alignment earlier. The CR would get a grade separation as a nice bonus. It would probably require demolishing ~5-6 houses in Oak Island but I think that's much easier than trying to navigate Point of Pines. If Revere wants a station at Point of Pines they can pay for it.
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From whatever 2008 report this was, the Point of Pines route was cheaper ($400M) than the option to cut over to the CR tracks just north of Wonderland ($600M).

If the costs between the two options end up anywhere similar, it seems obvious to take the route that gets more riders.
 
bakgwailo said:
An aside, but, I've always wondered how the encroachment happened? I would think the ROW is owned by the state, did a developer just go, oh well, let's build on it anyways when they designed and built those apartments? Serious question as for even basic projects on my own properties I've had to have surveys and a bunch of things done for the City of Boston to make sure things were on the up and up on property lines. Also, why is there seemingly no repercussions for having built on the ROW? Or is the ROW here owned by Revere and Revere just decided to let them build on it?
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City of Revere has a fair amount of corruption at the planning level, so it's not much of a stretch to see them looking the other way at a loaded developer's plans. The ROW ownership itself is complicated, but I think on that stretch it's actually owned by the power company.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Alternatively, there's a third potential routing that avoids all of the Diamond Creek wetlands, the Oak Island Rd. grade crossing, and the Point of Pines encroachment. And that's the "middle alternative" of a BRB&L extension to Oak Island St./Jack Satter House, where the 1945 plan had an intermediate stop, cutting behind the Oak Island Park ballfields and 1A here at the crane operator yard, and joining the Eastern Route right behind said industrial tenant at about half the distance across the marsh. You get 1 intermediate stop's worth of ridership, fewer land-takings, and explicitly avoid the worst of the cost blowouts. That may end up being a preferred alternative in the end if given serious study.
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As an added bonus, it also lets us put a station on Oak Island Rd and call it "Kelly's".
 
bakgwailo said:
An aside, but, I've always wondered how the encroachment happened? I would think the ROW is owned by the state, did a developer just go, oh well, let's build on it anyways when they designed and built those apartments? Serious question as for even basic projects on my own properties I've had to have surveys and a bunch of things done for the City of Boston to make sure things were on the up and up on property lines. Also, why is there seemingly no repercussions for having built on the ROW? Or is the ROW here owned by Revere and Revere just decided to let them build on it?
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Googling "One Carey Circle encroachment railroad", I found this informative thread, now of nearly eight years' vintage, including some illuminating comments by some of the "usual suspects" here on AB:

https://railroad.net/remnants-of-the-boston-revere-beach-amp-lynn-t38000-45.html

Nearly a decade ago, when I had a relative who owned a condo at One Carey Circle, I stood in the SW corner of the parking garage and peered south into the ROW.

At the time, the salt marsh grasses were extremely well manicured demarcating the ROW, which made for a somewhat sinister, Children of the Corn-style atmosphere peering through it.

I believe this is that exact same view, but looking NB toward One Carey Circle's parking garage, instead of SB from the garage itself.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
The flyover of Diamond Creek is probably going to be the most expensive option out of any because of the tricky EIS'ing. Which is why the state preferred that one the last time it gave a cursory look at the project: tankapalooza potential. You need to do a trestle on pegs over a lot of marshland acres, need to quad up and raise the Eastern Route embankment, and need to do a quad-track bridging over the Oak Island Rd. grade crossing with property takings. With likely no intermediate stops between Wonderland and Lynn contributing any ridership offsets for all that pain.

Point of Pines has its own problems, of course. But the flood risk is not more severe on the BRB&L ROW than it is on the Eastern Route ROW. The marsh is actually much worse for that because of its drainage properties. So that's why the EIS'ing is a blowout on the Diamond Creek ROW and isn't on any other routing. If the state were truly concerned with building this and truly concerned with building it climate-resilient, they would be looking at Point of Pines and would not be looking at Diamond Creek instead of putting its finger on the scale in the opposite direction.


Alternatively, there's a third potential routing that avoids all of the Diamond Creek wetlands, the Oak Island Rd. grade crossing, and the Point of Pines encroachment. And that's the "middle alternative" of a BRB&L extension to Oak Island St./Jack Satter House, where the 1945 plan had an intermediate stop, cutting behind the Oak Island Park ballfields and 1A here at the crane operator yard, and joining the Eastern Route right behind said industrial tenant at about half the distance across the marsh. You get 1 intermediate stop's worth of ridership, fewer land-takings, and explicitly avoid the worst of the cost blowouts. That may end up being a preferred alternative in the end if given serious study.
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Do you have more info about this alternative? I'd love to learn more.
 
^ Yea I hadnt heard of that option before, but it seems to really be the best of both worlds. Seems very do-able compared to the other options. Taking the crane operators yard would be a muuuuch easier sell than taking peoples homes, and it doesnt even look like youd need to take all of it.
 
Charlie_mta said:
It baffles me why the BL wasn't built to Lynn in the first place, when the BL was built to Revere in the early 1950s.
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The population density, the relentless traffic and the poor access in some cases to major highways makes it almost criminal that the blue line doesn’t extend further up the North Shore. And I’m talking beyond the 1 stop extension to the Lynn CR stations.

Of course it’s a pipe dream at this point due to logistics and due to our nations terrible lack of investment in mass transit but there are so many locations that could use it. Lynnway, East Lynn / Swamp area, Vinnin Square, Peabody Square, South Salem, Downtown Salem, a park & ride near the North Shore mall. The Southern end of Beverly could use it but that would be the unlikeliest of all considering you’d have to tunnel beneath the harbor.
 
NoShJFK said:
The population density, the relentless traffic and the poor access in some cases to major highways makes it almost criminal that the blue line doesn’t extend further up the North Shore. And I’m talking beyond the 1 stop extension to the Lynn CR stations.

Of course it’s a pipe dream at this point due to logistics and due to our nations terrible lack of investment in mass transit but there are so many locations that could use it. Lynnway, East Lynn / Swamp area, Vinnin Square, Peabody Square, South Salem, Downtown Salem, a park & ride near the North Shore mall. The Southern end of Beverly could use it but that would be the unlikeliest of all considering you’d have to tunnel beneath the harbor.
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Regional Rail
 
Tallguy said:
Regional Rail
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What is regional rail? I'm thinking it would be rapid transit-like frequencies, overhead (or 3rd rail) electrification of the cars, and no conflict from rail freight traffic. Is that what it is? How is it different than heavy rail rapid transit lines?
 
Charlie_mta said:
What is regional rail? I'm thinking it would be rapid transit-like frequencies, overhead (or 3rd rail) electrification of the cars, and no conflict from rail freight traffic. Is that what it is? How is it different than heavy rail rapid transit lines?
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It's different because it can be done on the existing infrastructure with some upgrades, whereas a rapid transit extension requires completely new infrastructure. Your description of it is exactly right, though -- high frequency, electric multiple unit trains, etc. It still would be distinct from rapid transit because it would come under FRA regulations, the stops would be further apart (even after infill stations are built), and it would extend much further from the urban core. But the trains would run every 15 minutes. Under such a scenario, would we need BLX to Lynn?
 
HenryAlan said:
It's different because it can be done on the existing infrastructure with some upgrades, whereas a rapid transit extension requires completely new infrastructure. Your description of it is exactly right, though -- high frequency, electric multiple unit trains, etc. It still would be distinct from rapid transit because it would come under FRA regulations, the stops would be further apart (even after infill stations are built), and it would extend much further from the urban core. But the trains would run every 15 minutes. Under such a scenario, would we need BLX to Lynn?
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In the case of BLX to Lynn, I would say that it is needed, even if a regional rail line to Lynn were established. BLX provides direct access to Logan Airport and MGH, as well as downtown Boston, which regional rail to North Station would not provide as well. If NSRL were to be built with a Central Station accessing the Blue Line at State Street, then I could see regional rail instead of BLX to Lynn, but absent that, BLX to Lynn is an essential project.
 
HenryAlan said:
It's different because it can be done on the existing infrastructure with some upgrades, whereas a rapid transit extension requires completely new infrastructure. Your description of it is exactly right, though -- high frequency, electric multiple unit trains, etc. It still would be distinct from rapid transit because it would come under FRA regulations, the stops would be further apart (even after infill stations are built), and it would extend much further from the urban core. But the trains would run every 15 minutes. Under such a scenario, would we need BLX to Lynn?
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Quoting F-Line:
F-Line to Dudley said:
No, it arguably makes it higher priority. For primarily bus reasons. Right now there's a pronounced equipment cycling anemia on the 4xx routes because of the overlap between Lynn Terminal and Wonderland (and Downtown via 1A and the tunnels in pre-COVID times) for making the rapid transit connections. Frequencies across the board generally suck because the equipment can't cycle back to Lynn Terminal efficiently after getting bogged down in traffic. Demand on the North Shore is and always has been baked-in far greater through the coastal density of Revere in the Blue Line direction than it is through the largely empty swamp to Chelsea, so the additional one-seat frequencies in the Chelsea/North Station direction...while helpful...still aren't hitting the biggest slice of demand pie and still require the buses to cover the rapid transit gap. The worse the roads get congested, the more that excess bus running deprives the entire North Shore up to Peabody/Danvers/Beverly of bus headways. So full Regional Rail-ification of the Eastern is going to have blunted effects on transit shares to the last mile across the North Shore if the outlying bus frequencies cannot scale up in tandem. And...they can't scale up in tandem at all unless you build BLX to make Lynn bus terminal a real 1:1 cycled terminal again.

If anything, Regional Rail is a heat-seeking missile that significantly ups BLX's build priority...which is why you're seeing a revival in BLX advocacy coincident with the Regional Rail advocacy.
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Thanks guys. To be clear, I support both BLX (largely for the reasons Charlie cites) and regional rail implementation. I was just bringing up the comparison to further inform the discussion. And F-Line's take is, as usual, highly informative.
 
Teban54 said:
Quoting F-Line:
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The 450 really has no business to cycle all the way to Haymarket on weekdays. The Wonderland Blue Line station is literally right there, yet that bus route runs down 1A to Haymarket needlessly to this very day, adding dozens of milage runtime that bogs down frequencies. Plus, it means those on the 450 route have no direct Airport connection without having to do a double transfer on weekdays (450 -> 455 -> BL).

There was an oppertunity to permanently cut the 450 to Wonderland during the 2023 Sumner Tunnel closure, yet they didn't do it. It would've reduced the bus fares from express bus to local bus permanently.

Cutting the 450 to Wonderland would also allow the MBTA to cut the 92 and 93 buses back to Haymarket, since it would free up space at the Haymarket Station for a 92/93 layover there, which would be a massive boost in frequency for all of the bus routes.
 
HenryAlan said:
It's different because it can be done on the existing infrastructure with some upgrades, whereas a rapid transit extension requires completely new infrastructure. Your description of it is exactly right, though -- high frequency, electric multiple unit trains, etc. It still would be distinct from rapid transit because it would come under FRA regulations, the stops would be further apart (even after infill stations are built), and it would extend much further from the urban core. But the trains would run every 15 minutes. Under such a scenario, would we need BLX to Lynn?
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No
 
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