MBTA Red Line / Blue Line Connector

^ There is an event thread for this meeting that was just posted.
 
Shepard said:
They will officially try to kill this on Thursday.

From uHub



For the life of me, I can't figure out why a half mile cut and cover is so controversial when in fact it improves the quality of the network so substantially.
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This isn't the official killshot. It's administrative busywork from the original request to remove it. The CLF is challenging the legal jurisdiction of the parties the state is asking for permission, so the lawyers will be busy with this one for a couple years trying to cover their asses from somebody else's lawyers.


While I would agree if there's no will at the T there's no way it'll ever get built, killing it is not so simple a procedural matter that they can one-and-done it at these hearings. It'll be a "walking dead" project for awhile.


Menino actually threw his weight around for Red-Blue at one point in a rare show of transit advocacy. Now would kind of be a good time for him to show up with a camera crew outside Charles MGH and unload some bluster to remind them who works a few blocks down the street.
 
If you had to choose- wouldn't blue line to lynn be way better than Red-Blue. I mean while it would help some people (myself included) coming from the north, I think the benefit is marginal, and I would not put it near the top of my list for T improvements. hopefully they can put the money to better use in the T system.
 
choo said:
If you had to choose- wouldn't blue line to lynn be way better than Red-Blue. I mean while it would help some people (myself included) coming from the north, I think the benefit is marginal, and I would not put it near the top of my list for T improvements. hopefully they can put the money to better use in the T system.
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You need red-blue to build Lynn, otherwise the transfers at GC and State will grind the system to a halt.
 
davem said:
You need red-blue to build Lynn, otherwise the transfers at GC and State will grind the system to a halt.
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Then maybe we should consider a different route to Lynn altogether, such as Orange Line via Chelsea. The point is that the Red/Blue conveniences people who already have access to the system, whereas getting rapid transit to Lynn expands the number of people with access. There are at least four or five extensions that should get priority over the Red-Blue connector, any one of which would cost less.
 
I don't remember seeing the estimates, but my gut instinct is that the RBX would greatly increase the ridership on the BL, taking a lot of cars off the road that currently drive between Eastie/Revere and employment centers on the Red Line. In addition, airport ridership on the BL would go up immensely, especially since it allows the T to kill SL Airport and the dual mode "silver line train" buses that defy logic.
 
HenryAlan said:
Then maybe we should consider a different route to Lynn altogether, such as Orange Line via Chelsea. The point is that the Red/Blue conveniences people who already have access to the system, whereas getting rapid transit to Lynn expands the number of people with access. There are at least four or five extensions that should get priority over the Red-Blue connector, any one of which would cost less.
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OL via Chelsea I don't think would be a good idea. 1/2 the amount of trains to Malden? Meh.... Blue is more direct and would most likely be cheaper and faster.

Blue -> Red frees up space on the green, red, and orange lines. This reduces dwell times at stations and increases timeliness of trains during rush hour.

It isn't just the riders shifting from Red/Blue who benefit, but also all those going through the crush that get some relief. I think that's the biggest benefit here. Going to Lynn without that relief valve going to Charles is going to slam the entire downtown subway.
 
Shepard said:
I don't remember seeing the estimates, but my gut instinct is that the RBX would greatly increase the ridership on the BL, taking a lot of cars off the road that currently drive between Eastie/Revere and employment centers on the Red Line. In addition, airport ridership on the BL would go up immensely, especially since it allows the T to kill SL Airport and the dual mode "silver line train" buses that defy logic.
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I feel like they will never kill the Silver Line Airport because of its direct connection to south station trains and buses, plus the growing seaport and convention complex. You would make convention goers go blue red silver in that scenario.
 
davem said:
You need red-blue to build Lynn, otherwise the transfers at GC and State will grind the system to a halt.
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Officially the projects are independent of one another, but because Red-Blue is a much faster build it's a de facto assumption that it would already be in place before they got around to Lynn. You could build it without Red-Blue, but the service levels (headways, # of available cars) wouldn't be able to scale up very far above what's available today.

The state PMT pegs Blue-Lynn at +21,000 new riders for the Blue Line, +7900 all-new transit riders. That is enough in itself to stuff downtown over-capacity with the folks needing to pull off the double-transfer, but I'm pretty sure that because the projects aren't designed to be joined at the hip by dependency that those are low-balled numbers. Actual demand for not just the extension but also end-to-end service levels more comparable to Orange probably overtops those figures by quite a bit, but you can only run the line on those headways if it's got a bona fide Red-Blue transfer to spread the downtown load around.
 
I would honestly be perfectly comfortable declaring Red-Blue to be the priority job for the MBTA. Number one, above everything - including GLX, including BLX, certainly it's far more important than South Coast Rail, hell - I'd probably consider "Red/Blue BUT the headways on Red stay the same for the next decade" to be an acceptable trade-off.
 
Commuting Boston Student said:
I would honestly be perfectly comfortable declaring Red-Blue to be the priority job for the MBTA. Number one, above everything - including GLX, including BLX, certainly it's far more important than South Coast Rail, hell - I'd probably consider "Red/Blue BUT the headways on Red stay the same for the next decade" to be an acceptable trade-off.
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Every breath wasted on Red-Blue is one we can't spend debating whether the Mayor of Fall River or the Mayor of Freetown is right about whether hypothetical South Coast Rail layover yard should be build in the other guy's backyard 20 years and 20 studies from now and not mine.

Hypothetically.

So let's gavel this EPA meeting into order, do our civic duty, and get on to the important issues, shall we!
 
It just royally sucks that so much of the region's wealth (and, thus, political muscle) is located outside the core. Red-Blue would have been connected decades ago if Boston had the amount of wealth that the cores of European cities do.

Anyone have insight as to how the hell it is projected to cost $750 million for such a seemingly simple operation? It's less than half a mile between Bowdoin and Charles/MGH. We should be getting the full cut-and-cover Riverbank Subway for around that much money.
 
What really should happen: State should sell the crumbling Government Services Center for a large mixed use redevelopment project (no offence to P. Rudolph or Beton Brut for that matter) and apply all proceeds to the BRX. You'd get ready funding and increase the mixed use density along that transit corridor at the same time.

Is that somehow illegal, or just never going to happen because it makes too much sense?
 
It should cost 150 million , but then again this is Mass where talking about. NJT recently built a New Light Rail line with a underground grade Separated Interchange for 270 Million , the Tunnel length is a similar to this project... Since its just an Extension it shouldn't cost 700 million....thats a new line....not an extension.
 
Shepard said:
What really should happen: State should sell the crumbling Government Services Center for a large mixed use redevelopment project (no offence to P. Rudolph or Beton Brut for that matter) and apply all proceeds to the BRX. You'd get ready funding and increase the mixed use density along that transit corridor at the same time.

Is that somehow illegal, or just never going to happen because it makes too much sense?
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Redeveloping the State Services Center doesn't offend my sensibilities, as long as the result doesn't require the wholesale demolition of the building. I'd love to see it repurposed as residential, with live-work space for artists. Perhaps a tower could be dropped into the elliptical park.

But I imagine there would be some resistance to real height here, as there has been at North Station, and the Government Center Garage. I can't imagine a scenario where the denizens of Beacon Hill wouldn't cotton to a tower of any kind along Cambridge Street.
 
So with all of this talk of killing it. Is anyone here going to the meeting Thursday? Are going to make a stand? We spend so much time speculating and talking, should we at least try a hand in this?
 
IIRC, the projected $700 million is severely padded with about 40% contingency. I think the purposely made it appear to be hugely more expensive than actual to get it declared a boondoggle and thus dropped.
 
omaja said:
It just royally sucks that so much of the region's wealth (and, thus, political muscle) is located outside the core. Red-Blue would have been connected decades ago if Boston had the amount of wealth that the cores of European cities do.
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Sorry I disagree. There's plenty of wealth and muscle living right here in the Back Bay and on the hill.

They just don't care. Why should they? They don't use public transportation.
 
bbfen said:
They just don't care. Why should they? They don't use public transportation.
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True enough. And their prep-school classmates who live in Marblehead or Manchester-by-the-Sea and commute to their offices at Harvard or MIT don't ride the T either.

The problem that I have with this project is that it's too small-minded.
 
700 Million is the cost of the Following NJT Rail Projects....but we seem to get more bang for our $$$....

730 Million $$ - Newark - Elizabeth Light Rail - 12 Miles - 9 stations - 2.5 Miles of Tunnel under NJ's busiest boulevard , 1 Underground Interchange , 5.5 Miles of Elevated Track , 4 miles along restored historic RR ROW....

360 Million $$$ MOM Rail Network - 115 Miles - 22 Stations - 4 Electrified lines , All replaced track , 20 Grade Separations , 2 Grade Separated Interchanges , 5 Rail Yards , 250 New Railcars , 30 New Locomotives

590 Million $$$ - Lackawanna Railway - 195 Mi - 11 Stations - 30 miles of restored track , 80 miles of double or triple tracking , 5 grade separations , 3 Restored Historic Viaducts , 1 Restored Tunnel , Electrification

420 Million $$$ - Penn Station Access - 29 Miles - 9 Stations , 20 miles of added Track , 3 Grade Separated Interchanges , 2 Major Bridges Replaced , Replaced Catenary , Sub Stations , 10 Replaced Overpasses

So I don't see how even more complex projects in the world's most expensive Region/city would cost less then a tiny Extension....my mind can't wrap its head around that....
 
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