Merits of "Luxury" housing.

vanshnookenraggen

vanshnookenraggen

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Bringing this back to my point from the Fedelity thread: if 45 Province is taking so long on sales then it's up to Millennium to turn Downtown Crossing into a residential zone. If that's the case then DTX isn't going to be that popin' an area for another 5 years.
 
Re: 45 Province

Any resulting discussion could be pushed to another thread, but Van's thought sparked a question:

What will it take, and will we see non-luxury residential high-rises built? The Longfellow towers are 40 stories, but aren't luxury. They aren't super cheap but they aren't out of the realm for someone with a good job. I'd love to see a major residential tower built for this purpose.

I guess archstone and maybe Kensington fit the bill for the next level down from 45 Province and Millennium, but is that style the bottom of a high rise residential market?
 
Re: 45 Province

I imagine that the price of the land would be the greatest factor in determining the final cost of the condo/apartment! With the price of land so great in central Boston along with the height limits imposed by neighborhood pressures, the cost of these units in highrises or even in midrises such as Trilogy are gonna be quite high!
 
Re: 45 Province

Why would you build non luxury high rises? That would make them into the projects, no? If you have that many people in one building you need a staff to run it so throwing a doorman in there makes in "luxury" automatically.

Besides land prices determine size. High rises only make sense where land prices are highest and that being the case high end renters/owners are the only tenants that make sense.

The only non luxury high rises I know of were subsidized heavily and many have converted to market rate (at least some portion have), thus making them "luxury".
 
Re: 45 Province

Toronto has 40-50 story residential buildings that sell units for 300k-500k. I am thinking of something like that. I just feel that boston is rich, but can it support a bunch of 45+ story buildings that only have multi-million dollar units? Because then I see some of these project stalling out.
 
Re: 45 Province

choo said:
Any resulting discussion could be pushed to another thread, but Van's thought sparked a question:

What will it take, and will we see non-luxury residential high-rises built? The Longfellow towers are 40 stories, but aren't luxury. They aren't super cheap but they aren't out of the realm for someone with a good job. I'd love to see a major residential tower built for this purpose.

I guess archstone and maybe Kensington fit the bill for the next level down from 45 Province and Millennium, but is that style the bottom of a high rise residential market?
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you in that I'd also like to see high-rise mid-income towers, but given the insane property values in Boston, a Leipziger Straße will never sprout in Boston (I don't think one would even sprout in Berlin today). One of my friends in Berlin has a 2BR apartment on the 17th floor of one of these DDR towers, with a balcony and view of the Spree for only 800 EUR a month.

Leipziger-str-a18147455.jpg


Overall, I feel like the whole "towers are for luxury" argument (which I can understand) is, in a sense, backward thinking regarding towers. The purpose of a tower is to increase population density, but we continue to build all these luxury towers with half the density that could be achieved by designing smaller affordable units within these towers. Then comes the issue of parking which is essentially required for luxury development now. It all just goes against the general purpose of a tower.

Relating back to Boston, maybe Mission Park is an example of an apartment tower that is not a slum tower, but not a luxury one either.
 
Re: 45 Province

How do these luxury towers not fall prey to falling prices when they don't sell the apartments?
 
Re: 45 Province

There's also the out-of-place tower in Jamaica Plain, a few scattered along Beacon Street in Brookline, beachfront Revere (can these somehow be considered towers? maybe?), one or two along Comm Ave by Chestnut Hill Ave, Peabody Terrace in Cambridge if you want to consider that... slim pickings in any case.

Of all projects in the docket right now, NorthPoint is probably the closest to incorporating towers without the ultra luxury pastiche.
 
Boston wouldn't know ultra-luxury if the St. Regis kicked it in its proverbial balls.
 
Rindge Towers near Alewife are pretty much the opposite of 'luxury'.
 
Condos at Charles River Park can run you $350,000+. So ... there's that.
 
Those Berlin towers on Leipziger Straße remind me a bit of Stuy town http://goo.gl/maps/UP7AX

Different layout I suppose. But all that empty space between the towers is counterproductive... even Stuy town has street level retail on the exterior at least. Leipziger Straße looks pretty sparse on street view.

The same density could have been achieved with shorter buildings with more ground coverage and the result would have been a better urban realm and probably cheaper construction costs. I just don't see the merit of residential towers unless you've used up all other options. They make sense for luxury apts because those folks are willing to fork over the additional cash for the higher construction costs.
 
Stuy Town/Peter Cooper Village are a great example of middle class housing in towers that work (on a functional level, not so much an urban design level) as are a lot apartment buildings financed by unions in New York and it's outer boroughs. But that was a different time with different needs; these were built to stem the flow of middle class into the suburbs. Can you point to any similar housing built today in the US? And I don't mean just your average apartment building but rather a large development.
 
My friend (+wife and child) pays something like $3300/month for a 1-BR in Stuy town. I guess that's middle class in Manhattan...
 
"Luxury" housing isn't what's being built - "expensive" housing is. Because it's "expensive", people use the word "luxury".

"Housing" isn't expensive - land is. Expensive housing is being built - in downtown Boston - because the land is expensive. Labor and supplies will cost the same whether here or outside of Boston (but probably more than in other states where workers aren't paid the same wages).

Two developments - both in the Combat Zone, both under construction - show this. Kensington is a $172 million project (I believe, construction costs only, not land) while Hong Lok is $33 million project (same). Kensington will have 385 units while Hong Luk will have 74 units. Doing the math, each comes out to a cost of about $445,000 per unit.

That's cost. If this was a condominium project, you'd have to add in a profit on each of these of, what, 20%? So, a market price of $550,000? I don't know how apartment developers calculate return on investment so I don't know what the equivalent is in rent.

The difference in the two projects is that Kensington is a "luxury" development while Hong Lok is a low-income development for seniors. Rentals at Kensington will be ... I dunno, $2,500 for a studio or one-bedroom, $4,000+ for a two-bedroom? Rents at Hong Lok average $500 per unit, possible because it was built with a mixture of public and private funds from 23 sources - including $7 million from the developer of Kensington, in fact.

A $300,000 condominium with 3% down (FHA loan) will run you $1,300 per month (before FHA lending fees, etc.) plus probably $180 per month in property taxes and $200 in condo fees, for a monthly housing expense of $1,680.

Added note: If you want to see what $500 per month gets you for an apartment, here are some photos w/ background on Hong Lok: http://sampan.org/2013/03/hong-lok-house-expands-to-house-more-chinese-seniors/
 
Added note: If you want to see what $500 per month gets you for an apartment, here are some photos w/ background on Hong Lok: http://sampan.org/2013/03/hong-lok-h...inese-seniors/
Click to expand...

About the same amenities that I get for a 2-bd in a late 19th century, 6 unit building in Union Square for $1850/mo plus util.

So land is worth a lot in Boston. Obviously. The cost of that land inflates the costs of rents/mortgages. Land isn't that much cheaper outside downtown, plus the HIGH demand to live in/around Boston, hence the high rents across the metro-area. That makes it seem like affordable housing is just not going to be a reality any time soon. Land outside of downtown that would allow for cheaper housing if higher density was allowed, isn't allowed to be developed for density, so rents in areas around downtown (cambridge/somerville/brighton) continue to rise. Parts of Fenway (Boylston St corridor) are getting developed for density, which is good. Generally though, people are going to keep getting priced out/stacking extra roommates into spaces and the rents are going to keep climbing.

Or is there a policy solution that I'm missing?
 
Matthew said:
My friend (+wife and child) pays something like $3300/month for a 1-BR in Stuy town. I guess that's middle class in Manhattan...
Click to expand...

That's about right. You need to make six figures just to get in the door.
 
Labor and supplies will cost the same whether here or outside of Boston (but probably more than in other states where workers aren't paid the same wages).
Click to expand...

Construction costs more in the city, due to mitigation, working in tighter spaces, probably some "other" less savory reasons, etc.
 
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