Motor Mart Tower | 201 Stuart Str. | Park Sq | Boston

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Justbuildit said:
I'm the first to criticize the expansion of IZ, but there are many fully commercial buildings that were proposed but never started.
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One thing that was abundantly obvious is that there were too many commercial buildings proposed, especially compared to residential which was (and still is) severely needed. The biggest issue is that, for the most part, all types of construction fall under the same rigid zoning laws. If you can only build 200'-300' the stumpy labs were considered the better bet than stumpy residential. I have contended that allowing higher buildings for residential compared to other uses would help steer development in this direction.

I have to give Mayor Wu (who I can't stand) a sliver of credit here, for advancing new zoning laws that allow taller residentials downtown. Of course, it covers a tiny area and is taking years to be implemented, and some of her other policies have had the opposite effects of making construction prohibitively expensive, but this is still a positive step in the right direction. How it will play out is another story, particularly with how few parcels are actually affected.

KentXie said:
That's fear mongering. Rent control exists in Los Angeles for years and they are still building residential high rises today and had a significant boom in the 2010s
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Boston also had a significant boom, the most significant of its existence, that is only now running its course. On the other hand, LA has some problems, and has still underbuilt (highrises in particular) compared to its overall population which dwarfs Boston's.

I give you Exhibit A of LA's issues, Oceanwide Plaza. 3 residential buildings over 500' right in downtown LA, so close to the finish line yet instead are incomplete and have been totally abandoned since 2019. They're now all covered with graffiti, and still in limbo as of today. This is as embarrassing as it gets for a major American city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanwide_Plaza

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DZH22 said:
One thing that was abundantly obvious is that there were too many commercial buildings proposed, especially compared to residential which was (and still is) severely needed. The biggest issue is that, for the most part, all types of construction fall under the same rigid zoning laws. If you can only build 200'-300' the stumpy labs were considered the better bet than stumpy residential. I have contended that allowing higher buildings for residential compared to other uses would help steer development in this direction.

I have to give Mayor Wu (who I can't stand) a sliver of credit here, for advancing new zoning laws that allow taller residentials downtown. Of course, it covers a tiny area and is taking years to be implemented, and some of her other policies have had the opposite effects of making construction prohibitively expensive, but this is still a positive step in the right direction. How it will play out is another story, particularly with how few parcels are actually affected.



Boston also had a significant boom, the most significant of its existence, that is only now running its course. On the other hand, LA has some problems, and has still underbuilt (highrises in particular) compared to its overall population which dwarfs Boston's.

I give you Exhibit A of LA's issues, Oceanwide Plaza. 3 residential buildings over 500' right in downtown LA, so close to the finish line yet instead are incomplete and have been totally abandoned since 2019. They're now all covered with graffiti, and still in limbo as of today. This is as embarrassing as it gets for a major American city.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oceanwide_Plaza

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Yeah no those towers have nothing to do with rent control and everything about the Chinese construction bubble that sapped available funding from the developer China Oceanwide Holdings Limited. We are talking about rent control and I'm giving you proof that it does not in fact prevent a boom.

I would also argue that Boston is significantly underbuilt, thanks to the neighboring towns refusing to densify except for Cambridge. There's definitely pent up demand, which is why Boston's median rent is one of the highest in the country, higher than Los Angeles.
 
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KentXie said:
I would also argue that Boston is significantly underbuilt, thanks to the neighboring towns refusing to densify except for Cambridge. There's definitely pent up demand, which is why Boston's median rent is one of the highest in the country, higher than Los Angeles.
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I agree with many of your points, but how would/could Somerville -- the densest city in New England -- densify more? I'm not saying Somerville got to be the way it is b/c of far-sighted, city-endorsed policies, but regardless: where else would you put people in a place that's already jam-packed?
 
KentXie said:
That's fear mongering. Rent control exists in Los Angeles for years and they are still building residential high rises today and had a significant boom in the 2010s
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Construction in the entire country is in complete free-fall with the stark exception of data centers and associated facilities.
 
chrisbrat said:
I agree with many of your points, but how would/could Somerville -- the densest city in New England -- densify more? I'm not saying Somerville got to be the way it is b/c of far-sighted, city-endorsed policies, but regardless: where else would you put people in a place that's already jam-packed?
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Not to derail the thread any further.

It's not going to be easy. In LA, despite perception that it is not dense (it actually is very consistently mid dense across the entire city), the city fabric is covered in 5-over-1s. Obviously this would be a hard sell for Somerville (and in the Northeast as a whole) since it's essentially a different culture. You'll also have to increase public transportation to support it given that Greater Boston's transportation infrastructure isn't car centric, a good thing!, but that means any development has to come with more public transportation support.

But yeah, a possible solution would be unfortunately to start replacing the traditional triple decker, double decker houses with 5 over 1s
 
KentXie said:
Yeah no those towers have nothing to do with rent control and everything about the Chinese construction bubble that sapped available funding from the developer China Oceanwide Holdings Limited. We are talking about rent control and I'm giving you proof that it does not in fact prevent a boom.
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First of all, zero of what you provided was "proof" of anything. Just another one of your typical flimsy responses where "your decree" is "proof" and "proof" is "your decree." In my line of work we call that a circular error formula.

Second of all, if there weren't any issues and LA was as healthy as you say, then another developer would have taken over and finished. It's been over 6 years that they've sat empty, and look where they are in the scheme of downtown, literally right next to the Staples Center! It's utterly embarrassing any way you look at it. The spectacular failure of such a high profile complex paints a drastically different picture than you have been providing.

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https://assets3.cbsnewsstatic.com/h...ea0c77ded6473dc797/gettyimages-2100875303.jpg

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DZH22 said:
First of all, zero of what you provided was "proof" of anything. Just another one of your typical flimsy responses where "your decree" is "proof" and "proof" is "your decree." In my line of work we call that a circular error formula.

Second of all, if there weren't any issues and LA was as healthy as you say, then another developer would have taken over and finished. It's been over 6 years that they've sat empty, and look where they are in the scheme of downtown, literally right next to the Staples Center! It's utterly embarrassing any way you look at it. The spectacular failure of such a high profile complex paints a drastically different picture than you have been providing.

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Bro, I live here and I follow the LA development. The reason was because China Oceanwide Holdings Limited hoped to eventually get enough funding to finish this project by selling their other dev rights in other cities (NYC and SF) to finish it off, which was unsuccessful. By then, it has been 4 or 5 years unfinished and required an additional $1 billion of funding, which is a sticking point for any buyer. FURTHERMORE, this new development IS NOT SUBJECTED TO RENT CONTROL. Similar to the proposal by Michelle Wu, only some residential builders are subjected to rent control, specifically older buildings. Newer buildings are not and if they are subjected to rent control, it will likely be after they had 10-15 years of no rent control. Right now in LA, last I checked, it was set to buildings built before 1992.

How do I know? I lived in a rent control apartment in DTLA from 2021-2023. I now live in a non-rent control apartment in DTLA so I have to do my research.

Just google search man
 
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KentXie said:
Bro, I live here and I follow the LA development. The reason was because China Oceanwide Holdings Limited hoped to eventually get enough funding to finish this project by selling their other dev rights in other city (NYC and SF) to finish it off, which was unsuccessful. By then, it has been 4 or 5 years unfinished and required an additional $1 billion of funding, which is a sticking point for any buyer. FURTHERMORE, this new development IS NOT SUBJECTED TO RENT CONTROL. Similar to the proposal by Michelle Wu, only some residential builders are subjected to rent control, specifically older buildings. Newer buildings are not and if they are subjected to rent control, it will likely be after they had 10-15 years of no rent control. Right now in LA, last I checked, it was set to buildings built before 1992.

Just google search man
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I just googled BRO, MAN, BROMAN. Your decree is not proof and proof is not your decree.
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KentXie said:
That's fear mongering. Rent control exists in Los Angeles for years and they are still building residential high rises today and had a significant boom in the 2010s
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For a place that's absurdly expensive as it is... it will absolutely kill any new development if it comes to pass.
 
DZH22 said:
First of all, zero of what you provided was "proof" of anything. Just another one of your typical flimsy responses where "your decree" is "proof" and "proof" is "your decree." In my line of work we call that a circular error formula.

Second of all, if there weren't any issues and LA was as healthy as you say, then another developer would have taken over and finished. It's been over 6 years that they've sat empty, and look where they are in the scheme of downtown, literally right next to the Staples Center! It's utterly embarrassing any way you look at it. The spectacular failure of such a high profile complex paints a drastically different picture than you have been providing.

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https://assets3.cbsnewsstatic.com/h...ea0c77ded6473dc797/gettyimages-2100875303.jpg

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These towers are useless because they've been designed for a clientele that doesn't exist. That's the entire story.
 
DZH22 said:
I just googled BRO, MAN, BROMAN. Your decree is not proof and proof is not your decree.
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Sorry what is the connection that rent control killed that development? I don't see it

In case anyone wants to briefly read up the history of Oceanwide Plaza (see ref links in wiki and article on how they exited their projects elsewhere to focus on the project in LA):
en.wikipedia.org

Oceanwide Plaza - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
www.wealthmanagement.com

Chinese Developer Oceanwide Is Exiting NYC, Hawaii to Focus on LA

The Beijing-based company plans to sell assets that won’t generate immediate revenue or haven’t been seized by creditors.
www.wealthmanagement.com www.wealthmanagement.com
 
Jeremi said:
These towers are useless because they've been designed for a clientele that doesn't exist.
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In fairness... building here is so expensive that's really the case here.
 
KentXie said:
Sorry what is the connection that rent control killed that development? I don't see it
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Your overall assertion was that LA is still building a ton of residential despite rent control. The numbers in this chart tell a wildly different story.

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My use of the Oceanwide Plaza complex is related to the overall health of the city. It literally looks like the 3rd world and is right next to your NBA arena and at the edge of your downtown. A healthy city with pro-development policies never would have let things get to that point. Could you imagine something like this in Boston? It's very easy to point to and say "we should not emulate a city that allows this to happen." I mean, it really is pathetic, probably the biggest construction failure in the entire country right now.

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DZH22 said:
Your overall assertion was that LA is still building a ton of residential despite rent control. The numbers in this chart tell a wildly different story.

View attachment 69947

My use of the Oceanwide Plaza complex is related to the overall health of the city. It literally looks like the 3rd world and is right next to your NBA arena and at the edge of your downtown. A healthy city with pro-development policies never would have let things get to that point. Could you imagine something like this in Boston? It's very easy to point to and say "we should not emulate a city that allows this to happen." I mean, it really is pathetic, probably the biggest construction failure in the entire country right now.

View attachment 69948
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Here's the wiki for the latest development in LA. Sort it by year to see all the high rises built from 2010 to now.

en.wikipedia.org

List of tallest buildings in Los Angeles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Again, that complex had nothing to do with rent control. All the above high rises from 2010s and onward have been built during time when there is rent control but also, none of those towers have rent control requirements because they are new.
 
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