My City is Bigger Than Your City

nm88

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PS. Name the architects from above. It's a good list.

Another example of why I like our skyline so much -- it is articulate and not over-done. We are a small city. Why strive to be something we're not? Make the best of what we have, which is, well... Bos77's pic shows there's a lot to admire.
 
Re: The Clarendon

Without waving the pom poms, Boston isn't a "small" city. Small cities are Richmond, Des Moines, Pasadena and Jacksonville. Those are probably medium-sized cities and Boston isn't even them.

That's not even considering Boston's influence on the nation: financial (which is larger than most people realize) educational, medicinal and technological. Don't sell the city short. Sure there are many cities phyisically and influentially bigger than this city, but I would argue there's hardly more than 5 that put the both together. That's not small.

NY, LA, CHI, MIA, SFA, and maybe DAL, HOU, PHI, DC. The BOS is in that group, despite what some national yahoo's think of the city. They drink their hatorade because they look at demographic's while the city's influence is clearly larger than Denver, Minni, Detroit, Cinnci, and a few of those "top dogs"

Calling Boston "small" is offensive to... well probably alot of citizens. Not many cities can claim to be the capital of 5 or 6 states and the beginning of a county. Fuck "Boston is a small city"... Clearly the Pop. (because of reverse establishment) is proportionally incorrect and the small town feeling of the city dominates but isn't always a 100% correct.
 
Re: The Clarendon

Boston is small in square miles. However, Boston is one of the largest and most influential urbanizations in the US. When I read magazine and news articles it's amazing how often news happens in Boston. Boston also has one of the largest downtowns (financial district and back bay, not including east cambridge)measured by population and office space, bigger than Dallas Miami, Philly and Houston. Many Bostonians hate boosterism and tend to be downright modest. Check out cities on Wikipedia. Places like Miami and Philly claim to be world cities based on old GAWC analysis which states that neither is a world city but shows evidence of becoming one. One the other hand, Boston is named a world city but the battle about this point on the wikipedia section for Boston has gone on for years and this issue, considered important by most cites, is virtually omitted by Boston editors. Just one example general modesty of Bostonians.
 
Re: The Clarendon

Boston is one of the 5 most influential cities in the country.
 
I moved these posts to their own thread because I just know they would have taken the Clarendon thread off in another direction.
 
HOW BIG IS A CITY?


When I was a kid with an hour to kill, I?d sometimes memorize city population figures. Those figures are all obsolete now, and they weren?t so much use then either because --as many have remarked-- it?s misleading to compare sizes of cities by just one of the readily available measures of a city?s relative size. Actually, it can even be misleading to look at two. Though they?re both flawed, the two figures often employed to compare city size scientifically are city-limit population and metropolitan population.

If you look at Boston?s latest city-limit population estimates, you?ll conclude it?s smaller than Charlotte, El Paso or Austin and a third the size of Philadelphia, while its metropolitan population shows it to be nearly the same size as Philadelphia and bigger than Dallas/Fort Worth. Yet Charlotteans visiting Boston think they?re in the big city; clearly city-limit figures don?t convey the reality.

It does, however, have the undeniable benefit of being hard and verifiable fact, not much subject to controversy over definition. What it shows, however, mostly interests politicians; every mayor likes to know how many votes he needs to get elected. The political limits of such cities as Boston or San Francisco contain only a fraction of the metropolitan population, while in the case of Hong Kong or Budapest or Rome almost everyone lives within the limits.

City-limit population was a useful basis of relative city-size comparisons before suburbs grew widespread. In 1900 this figure meant more than it does today. If you look at1900?s city-limit lineup of the top five, it differs more from today?s city-limit roster than from today?s metropolitan lineup of the top five. The exception --Los Angeles-- illustrates the suburban nature of 20th Century growth.

Metropolitan population is less cut and dry and generally includes the population of the entire region of which a city is the center according to such criteria as commuting patterns and adjoining density. New York City?s metropolitan area includes parts of three states by some yardsticks, and four by others.


* * *

There could be a third measure of a city?s size that?s not yet widely used, though it?s at least as valid as the other two if you want to know a city?s size. This is the population of the more-or-less contiguous central urban area ?that is, the territory where folks might say they live an urban life.

This usually means being able to conduct the day?s business without driving; you can conveniently take public transport to work, to major shopping trips or to evening amusement, and you can get your daily necessities within walking distance. All of Manhattan meets these criteria, and large swathes of Brooklyn and the Bronx, as well as some places (like Astoria) in Queens. In Boston, you?d count the Hub, Back Bay, the South End, Charlestown, perhaps parts of Allston and maybe parts of Cambridge and Brookline.

Physically, such places are most often recognizable by the fact that most buildings touch, and thus form a street wall-- whether it?s row houses in Brooklyn or apartment buildings on the Grand Concourse or those strung-out ribbons of townhouses along the above-ground stretches of the Green Line. It?s also true of a double house in London or Charleston; each half touches the other.

Occasionally, urban densities are approached almost entirely with free-standing buildings, though such instances are fairly rare. Examples are Cambridge, Miami Beach and three-decker portions of Dorchester, as well as city-absorbed towers-in-the-park developments such as Stuyvesant Town, the Barbican or Boston?s West End.

Urban places are invariably well-served by public transport --almost always rail-based-- or like Miami Beach and Charleston, they?re small enough that you can walk from one end of the urban area to the other.


* * *

Any method of measurement is useless if it doesn?t deliver a usable truth. If you want to establish the relative size of a mature tapeworm and an anaconda, for example, it?s pointless to compare just their length; the tapeworm is likely to win that match-up.

To get a meaningful handle on the relative size of cities by using population statistics, I think you need all three measures --metropolitan population, city-limit population and contiguous urban population-- and you have to assign each a relative weight.


* * *

Statistics show Chicago and Paris each have about the same metropolitan and city-limit populations. Yet anyone who has lived for a while in Paris and Chicago knows that Paris feels like much more of a big city, regardless of what the two commonly-used statistics may show.

?Feels?: hardly a scientific term --unless you can devise a scientific (i.e. numerical) method of measuring the concept.

The feeling itself, however, is real enough; everyone is able to discern it, even if they can?t numerically describe it. Though Chicago is certainly a great city, Paris is more cosmopolitan; has more variety, density, destinations, cultural impact, a larger area of interest. Paris gives birth to more international trends, offers greater availabilities, a semblance of infinitude, more for the tourist, more prestige and more gravitational pull on the rest of the cosmos.

When you compare Paris and Chicago by the third measure, the truth comes into focus: Paris? contiguous urban population is actually greater than its city limit population, while Chicago?s is much smaller. This is because much territory within Chicago?s city limits is actually suburban, while in Paris even the ?suburbs? (banlieue) are mostly urban.

Suburbia near the city?s center dilutes its urbanity, while further out it contributes population mass that?s a supply of commuters, occasional theatergoers and bar patrons, and warm bodies to comprise a regional culture or mass of public opinion. Though Washington is certainly enhanced by residents of suburban Fairfax, their contribution to DC?s big city ethos pales beside Georgetowners?.

If you regard only contiguous urban area, however, you?ll wrongly conclude that Hong Kong is a bigger city than New York because more folks live in Hong Kong?s dense urban area, while it has only few and sparsely-settled suburbs within its limits or its metropolitan area.

So you need a balance; all three numbers count for something: metropolitan, city-limit and urban area. They play different roles in different cities; if you take account of them all, you can get a much less distorted picture of cities? relative size. Paris? large metropolitan population helps recalibrate perceptions that might form in your mind by overemphasizing the smallish city-limit population.


* * *

Now most of us have a pretty good feeling for the size of a place if we?ve spent some time there; a week is usually enough to take the measure of a city. We know that Washington?s about the size of Vienna regardless of what commonly available statistics may tell us to the contrary.

You need all three population figures ?metropolitan, city-limit and urban area?to make a fairly accurate estimate of a city?s size without actually visiting. And the three measures need to be weighted; the unweighted statistics won?t yield the truth any more than knowing the length of a tapeworm would give you much useful information about its actual size. You have to also know its weight and width and then you have to find a consistent way to assess the relative importance of these characteristics. Obviously in the case of the above example, you?d attach more importance to weight.

So to see how this might be accomplished, I started with reality as I was able to perceive it ?that is, I started with the conclusion.

In other words, to find the methodology that would lead mathematically to an approximate truth, I had to start with my perception of the truth itself, plus access to the statistics; and then I had to find a simple and near-universally applicable formula that would yield the rankings I was looking for. That is, I already knew the anaconda was bigger than the tapeworm.

This methodology is often used [surreptitiously ;)] by car magazines to rank autos in comparison tests and travel magazines to rank destinations. Of course, the method?s validity can be disputed ?especially when applied to subjective questions such as ?what is a good place for a vacation??


* * *

So I wrote down some larger cities in which I had spent more than seven consecutive days, and then I arranged them according to my perception of their relative ?size.?

I think I?m well-traveled, but the list was fairly short, and turned out to contain mostly cities in which I had actually lived, i.e. not in a hotel; travelers rarely spend a whole week in one place.

The list looked like this, with cities arranged in descending order and in clumps according to my subjective (and therefore --by my rules-- accurate) assessment of their true size:

New York
London
Hong Kong
Paris

Chicago

Milan
Rome
Philadelphia
Washington
San Francisco
Boston
Budapest
Vienna
Munich
Amsterdam

Copenhagen
Florence
Nice


I?ve been to Tokyo, Montreal, San Juan, Toronto and Los Angeles, though never for a whole week at a time, so they?re omitted. I?m certain Tokyo exceeds New York?s population by all three measures, while Los Angeles might not even qualify for the list, since I?m not sure it actually contains any urban areas to measure by the third criterion.

Next I looked up the easily-available city-limit and metropolitan populations of each city. The list then looked as follows, with numbers in millions. (The third column of numbers indicates city limit density in persons per square mile. A low density figure turns out to be a useful indicator of a city whose city limits reflect annexation of extensive suburbia; look at the figure for Rome. Conversely, a very high figure indicates that the city limit area [and even beyond] is entirely urban. Look at the figure for Paris for an example; Paris' city-limit density is more than ten times Rome's):

New York ...... 8.2 ..18.7 ..26,720
London ......... 7.7 ..13.5 ..12,300
Hong Kong...... 6.9 ...7.0 ..16,500
Paris............. 2.2 ..11.5 ..63,400

Chicago......... 2.9 ....9.4 ..12,600

Milan............. 1.3 ....7.4 ..17,900
Rome............. 2.8 ....5.3 ...5,600
Philadelphia..... 1.5 ...5.8 ..10,900
Washington..... 0.6 ...5.8 ....9,000
San Francisco.. 0.7 ...4.2 ..15,800
Boston............ 0.6 ...4.4 ..11,600
Budapest........ 1.7 ...3.2 ....8,300
Vienna............ 1.7 ...2.2 ..10,100
Munich........... 1.3 ...2.7 ..10,900

Amsterdam....... 0.7 ..2.5 ..11,500
Copenhagen..... 0.5 ..1.4 ..14,600

Florence........... 0.4 ..1.0 ...9,200
Nice................ 0.3 ..0.9 ..12,400

Plugging in the contiguous urban population is the hardest, because the statistics aren?t widely available --nor are they scientifically acquirable unless you?re willing to invest a few weeks on Google aerials and census tracts info-- but you can make an educated guess.

In the case of New York, you can start with Manhattan?s 100% urban population of about 1.6 million and add to it Brooklyn?s Williamsburg, Brooklyn Heights, Dumbo, Downtown, Fort Greene, Red Hook, Park Slope, Bedford Stuyvesant, et al., large parts of the Bronx and a bit of Queens. Combined, this amounts to about 4 million people. That?s about the same as the urban population of Paris, which includes numerous completely urban inner-city ?suburbs? like St. Denis, Neuilly, St. Cloud and Vincennes.

In Boston, you?d include downtown districts such as the North and West Ends, Beacon Hill, Back Bay, the South End and much of badly-damaged Roxbury ?as well as districts contiguous across bodies of water, such as Charlestown and East Boston. Boston?s municipal boundaries are so old and chopped up that they don?t include high-density urban parts of Cambridge, Somerville, Chelsea and even stretches of Brookline along the streetcar routes. I?ve included these outside-city-limits areas in Boston?s contiguous urban population estimate.

Google?s satellite photos clearly reveal such high-density urban districts, which can then be coordinated with census tracts. I?ve done an approximation of that by means of informed guesses based on personal familiarity with these places to come up with rough figures to suggest a methodology.

Adding contiguous urban populations (column #1) completes the three ways of measuring city size. Column #2 is city-limit population and column #3 is metropolitan population. Note that Paris has a smaller city-limit population than Rome, but perhaps five times the contiguous urban population; Rome pretty quickly dissolves into commie blocks and villas in the outskirts. The table looks like this:

New York......... 4.0 ...8.2 ..18.7
London............ 3.5 ...7.7 ..13.5
Hong Kong....... 4.5 ...6.9 ....7.0
Paris............... 4.5 ...2.2 ..11.5

Chicago........... 1.0 ...2.9 ...9.4

Milan............... 1.1 ....1.3 ...7.4
Rome............... 0.9 ...2.8 ...5.3
Philadelphia....... 0.7 ...1.5 ...5.8
Washington....... 0.4 ...0.6 ...5.8
San Francisco.... 0.5 ...0.7 ...4.2
Boston.............. 0.4 ...0.6 ...4.4
Budapest........... 0.9 ...1.7 ...3.2
Vienna.............. 0.8 ...1.7 ...2.2
Munich.............. 0.8 ...1.3 ...2.7

Amsterdam........ 0.6 ...0.7 ...2.5
Copenhagen....... 0.4 ...0.5 ...1.4

Florence............ 0.3 ...0.4 ...1.0
Nice.................. 0.3 ...0.3 ...0.9
Venice............... 0.1 ...0.3 ...1.6

What?s left is to assign a weight factor to each population criterion. (Remember this is working backwards from the predetermined conclusion to a method of guaranteeing that
conclusion.)

Observation reveals that city-limit population (the most hard-edged category) averages a bit less than twice the contiguous urban population (though not in the case of Paris!!), while it seems to have less actual bearing on actual big-city feel than the amount of contiguous central urban fabric (who thinks Hyde Park contributes much to Boston?s big-city feel?). So I chose a weight factor of two (2) for contiguous urban population.

City-limit population tends to about a half or more of the metropolitan population in foreign cities and in New York, which resembles a foreign city-- while it?s about a sixth of the metropolitan population for American cities with their parasitic suburbs (compare that with Hong Kong!!). I chose a half (1/2) as the weight factor for metropolitan population.

City-limit population (a hard-edged, objective measure) gets a weight factor of 1.

This way the first three columns mostly resemble each other when weighted (boldface numbers), while the fourth boldface number is the one that tells the cities' relative size by *ahem* feel. Wherever there?s a big deviation in the first three numbers (red), it?s meaningful. Here are the first four cities:

New York...... 2(4.0) = 8.0 ...1(8.2) = 8.2 ...18.7/2 = 9.4 ...Average score: (25.6)/3 = 8.5
London......... 2(3.5) = 7.0 ...1(7.7) = 7.7 ...13.5/2 = 6.3 ...Average score: (21.2)/3 = 7.0
Hong Kong.... 2(4.5) = 9.0 ...1(6.9) = 6.9 .....7.0/2 = 3.5 ...Average score: (19.4)/3 = 6.5
Paris............ 2(4.5) = 9.0 ...1(2.2) = 2.2 ...11.5/2 = 5.8 ...Average score: (17.0)/3 = 5.7

The others:

Chicago......... 2(1.0) = 2.0 ...1(2.9) = 2.9 ....9.4/2 = 4.7 ....Average score: (9.6)/3 = 3.2

Milan............. 2(1.2) = 2.4 ...1(1.3) = 1.3 ....7.4/2 = 3.7 ....Average score: (7.4)/3 = 2.5
Rome............. 2(0.9) = 1.8 ...1(2.8] = 2.8 ....5.3/2 = 2.7 ...Average score: (7.3)/3 = 2.4
Philadelphia.... 2(0.7) = 1.4 ...1(1.5) = 1.5 ....5.8/2 = 2.9 ....Average score: (5.8)/3 = 1.9
Budapest....... 2(0.9) = 1.8 ...1(1.7) = 1.7 ....3.2/2 = 1.6 ....Average score: (5.1)/3 = 1.7
Vienna.......... 2(0.8] = 1.6 ...1(1.7) = 1.7 ....2.2/2 = 1.1 ....Average score: (4.4)/3 = 1.5
Washington.... 2(0.4) = 0.8 ...1(0.6) = 0.6 ....5.8/2 = 2.9 ....Average score: (4.3)/3 = 1.4
Munich.......... 2(0.7) = 1.4 ...1(1.3) = 1.3 ....2.7/2 = 1.4 ....Average score: (4.1)/3 = 1.4
San Francisco.. 2(0.5) = 1.0 ..1(0.7) = 0.7 ....4.2/2 = 2.1 ....Average score: (3.8)/3 = 1.3
Boston........... 2(0.4) = 0.8 ...1(0.6) = 0.6 ....4.4/2 = 2.2 ....Average score: (3.6)/3 = 1.2
Amsterdam..... 2(0.6) = 1.2 ...1(0.7) = 0.7 ....2.5/2 = 1.3 ....Average score: (3.2)/3 = 1.1

Copenhagen... 2(0.3) = 0.6 ...1(0.5) = 0.5 ....1.4/2 = 0.7 ....Average score: (1.8)/3 = 0.6
Florence......... 2(0.3) = 0.6 ...1(0.4) = 0.4 ....1.0/2 = 0.5 ...Average score: (1.5)/3 = 0.5
Nice.............. 2(0.3) = 0.6 ...1(0.3) = 0.3 ....0.9/2 = 0.5 ....Average score: (1.4)/3 = 0.5
Venice............ 2(0.1) = 0.2 ...1(0.3) = 0.3 ....1.6/2 = 0.8 ...Average score: (1.3)/3 = 0.4


* * *

I look at the above chart and I say, ?Works for me.? The cities are arranged in the size order that squares with my perceptions.

Seems that metropolitan population?s absolute numbers count about half as much in assessing the feel of a city?s size than city-limit population figures, while contiguous urban numbers count about twice as much.

After testing the methodology on the city specimens I already knew well, I felt I could later apply it to examples that I didn?t know as intimately and get accurate readings from application of the formula.

I?ve never had the pleasure of a Glasgow visit, but I can put together its figures:

Glasgow.......... 2(0.5) = 1.0 ...1(0.6) = 0.6 ...(2.3)/2 = 1.2 ...Average score: (2.8)/3 = 0.9

The figures would lead me to believe that Glasgow?s ?true size? is about that of Amsterdam and bigger than Copenhagen. Does that seem about right to those who have been to all three.
 
I wish there were some way you could be compensated or even rewarded for all your hard work. This is certainly an interesting and intriguiging way of looking at the subject. I'm sure other subjective things could play into it.....Boston has such narrow streets that it's been said if Boston had typical American street widths the Norfth End would be in Salem.

It feels to me as though Boston, Philadelphia, and San Francisco have a very similar size perception, and that Washington feels a bit smaller....while the half square mile that comprises downtown Los Angeles feels larger even though we know it's not.

This is such a complex issue that it may ultimately be something that's impossible to actually guage, but your objective formula is a breath of fresh air, and I hope you will continue in this vein. My hat is off to you!
 
ablarc, you may be interested in reading "the evolution of built landscapes in metropolitan regions" in the journal of planning education and research ... the author segregates metropolitan areas into different types of buildouts.
i don't understand what about your third criteria is not purely subjective - as you said you're talking about "feeling" ... and feelings differ.
contiguous urbanized area is used by demographers - though it's not defined as "where buildings touch"
this was produced by the lewis center in LA: "Is LA more crowded than NY"? ... they used a rhetorical question for some (any east coasters would simply answer 'no') ... but it is actually a response to the common NIMBY perception in LA that its density exceeds NY's (because the density of its contiguous urbanized area does, though not that of the city proper by a long shot). http://lewis.sppsr.ucla.edu/GIScontest/OsgoogEtAl_LANYDensity_report.pdf
I should add that it uses census data which is now off. The densest census tracts in LA now go up to about 100,000/sm
also, anyone using LA as paradigmatic of low density may also want to take a look at LA's planning department map
http://plncts.lacity.org/DRU/C2K/Cwd/PgCwd.cfm?grfxname=Dens72
the area in dark green is of at least twice the average density for the city, meaning it is above 15,000 people per square mile (and this area is about 75 square miles, see again the lewis center article). the city of boston with its population density of around 12,000/sm, for example, or SF, could easily fit within this area.

just questioning some of the logic, or assumptions, here.
 
hi,
i have been lurking on these boards for years now and have never posted. I mostly just like reading what other people have to say.

Now that i got that out of the way, i found a website a while back that i feel is working on accuratly studdying the impact all the cities in this country have culturaly. It is amazig which cities can "claim" the most area.

here is the link.
http://www.commoncensus.org/index.php

Boston has a much larger area where people feel like it is the major city that "has the most cultural and economic influence on [their] area overall," than New York has. So, even though New York City may be a much larger city, not as much of the country realy identifies with it.

I just think this is an intresting way to look at the "which city is bigger" question.
 
That is interesting, but it just shows land area not population, hence Dever being the biggest city. I doubt that the largest percentage of the US population identifies Denver as 'their' city. It's just that those that do are more spread out.

More a quirk of geography than anything else.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking garage.

This is an interesting topic, that of tall buildings and the esteem they bring to a city. Do tall buildings really benefit Boston? Boston is a great city, and has always been a great city without tall buildings, much like Florence or Athens today. Unfortunately much of Boston's great architecture has been destroyed or burned down in its history and none of it consisted of tall buildings. Boston is a great city because of its colonial history, its maritime history, as well as the hundreds of thousands of European immigrants that came here and shaped the city. Boston is famous for the Brahmin society that were influenced on their grand tours of Europe and returned to lay the foundations of Back Bay and our present great cultural institutions. I think its great that Boston has some tall buildings, but I firmly believe that if we never get another one, it doesn't mean Boston is any less great than it was before it ever had one.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking garage.

^^Your last statement is true. Just that other cities will surpass Boston in greatness in attracting people to move to the city itself. I've seen many other major city with increases in their population that puts Boston to shame. I forgot which city but I know there are a few that within the last decade or two, their population jumped a good 50,000-100,000+. Boston, a jump of 10,000 in a decade is consider a good decade. And increase of high rise may show that Boston is getting more people to live in the city and thus can attract more jobs and corporation.

Here's a few good examples:
Atlanta: 100,000+ in 7 years from 2000-2007. There are now around 519,000 residents.
Miami: 47,000+ in 7 years from 2000-2007. There are now around 409,000 residents.
Charlotte: 130,000+ in 6 years from 2000-2006. There are now around 611,000 residents.
Las Vegas: 80,000+ in 7 years from 2000-2007. There are now around 558,000 residents.
Seattle: 30,000+ in 7 years from 2000-2007. There are around 594,000 residents.

Compare to this:
Boston: 10,000+ in 7 years from 2000-2007. There are now around 599,000 residents.

Yes more towers may not correlate with increase population but with more tower and more residential units, average cost of housing decreases. The same goes for office space and thus attractiveness for major corporations to move increases.
 
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Re: New tower at Aquarium parking garage.

I agree with Meadowhawk. The last post, however, fails to mention that the cities cited encompass huge land areas compared with Boston, where sprawling suburban subdivisions with postage-stamp yards, have packed a great number of people into their borders. The city of Boston proper is tiny compared with these, and so will be the available space for expansion. It would be more appropriate to include Greater Boston in these population statistics.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking garage.

Pesident Palin will outlaw gambling and sex, rendering Las Vegas a ghost town
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking garage.

Not entirely true. Miami, for one, has a much smaller footprint than Boston. Without the area at its disposal, Miami is building UP in a big way. I see that as a way for us to go as well.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking garage.

Miami is much more of an economic gateway to Latin American countries and will probably have much greater demand for office space in the future than Boston.
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking garage.

" Miami, for one, has a much smaller footprint than Boston"

???
 
Re: New tower at Aquarium parking garage.

Riffgo's right, land mass for Miami is around 38 square miles, Boston is around 50.
 

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