New Red and Orange Line Cars

Riverside said:
Didn't I hear somewhere that the T/state is obligated to go with the lowest (satisfactory) bidder? Like, obligated by statute?
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Something a lot of people like to throw out there. But, it isn't the absolute lowest bid, they basically need to accept the best value that does weigh in on total price, but can take into account past track record of the vendor and whatnot. The CRRC contract, though, was so under market/bid that no one else could touch it. General thought is they were/are using the MBTA bid as a loss leader to get into the North American market in general.
 
Riverside said:
Didn't I hear somewhere that the T/state is obligated to go with the lowest (satisfactory) bidder? Like, obligated by statute?
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That IS true. But either the state or whomever is in charge should be allowed to let the T overide it a little. So far, these cars appear to be anything but satifactory, & it's not coming from just me. :unsure:
 
bakgwailo said:
Something a lot of people like to throw out there. But, it isn't the absolute lowest bid, they basically need to accept the best value that does weigh in on total price, but can take into account past track record of the vendor and whatnot. The CRRC contract, though, was so under market/bid that no one else could touch it. General thought is they were/are using the MBTA bid as a loss leader to get into the North American market in general.
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Also CRRC does have a solid track record for building subway cars. They are not neophytes. They are new to North America, but there are some pretty serious subway systems all across China, and in India, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Argentina... that rely on their metro cars. They are the largest producer of rail rolling stock in the world.
 
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bakgwailo said:
Something a lot of people like to throw out there. But, it isn't the absolute lowest bid, they basically need to accept the best value that does weigh in on total price, but can take into account past track record of the vendor and whatnot. The CRRC contract, though, was so under market/bid that no one else could touch it. General thought is they were/are using the MBTA bid as a loss leader to get into the North American market in general.
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That's sad. So sad. I know that they are doing their best to provide new equipment to ride on, & they are making sure that it IS safe to ride in. I'm wondering if the T laid the cards on the table before signing on the dotted line for these railcars.True, they probably are still under the original warranty, but for how long before the T has to start kicking in the dough out of its own pockets when free repairs are up? No one knows. In the meantime, we have to just keep on seeing those old tired broken down cars while the new ones are out for repairs or inspections again.
 
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Honestly, the rollout isn't much different than the rollout of the Hyundai Rotem commuter rails trains in the early 2010s. I think Henry Alan is probably correct in that there is just better communication of issues than there were in past rollouts
 
There's also a lot of scrutiny, which means that potentially minor issues (brakes locking on a single car) and probably unrelated issues (derailment due to track problems) result in the full fleet being pulled. As a full-fleet Red and Orange Line replacement, this is probably the most impactful rail procurement (in terms of passenger numbers) in Boston since at least the PCCs. Probably the most impactful in the US outside of NYC and Chicago during the last 80 years.
 
KentXie said:
Honestly, the rollout isn't much different than the rollout of the Hyundai Rotem commuter rails trains in the early 2010s. I think Henry Alan is probably correct in that there is just better communication of issues than there were in past rollouts
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The bid was also awarded during these teething problems, and Rotem was the second lowest bidder. Buying more equipment from them while simultaneously threatening to cancel another order isn't feasible, particularly when subjective metrics like "Qualifications of Firm" are included in the contract award.
 
bakgwailo said:
Something a lot of people like to throw out there. But, it isn't the absolute lowest bid, they basically need to accept the best value that does weigh in on total price, but can take into account past track record of the vendor and whatnot. The CRRC contract, though, was so under market/bid that no one else could touch it. General thought is they were/are using the MBTA bid as a loss leader to get into the North American market in general.
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Right. In the RFP it made clear that best value, not best price was the most important metric.

For purposes of this procurement, all technical evaluation factors other than price, when combined are more important than lowest price. Therefore, the Authority may select other than the lowest price offer if it is determined that additional technical merit offered is worth the additional cost in relation to other proposals received. For evaluation purposes, if proposals received are determined to be technically comparable, then price becomes more important. The Authority is more concerned with obtaining excellent technical features than in making awards at the lowest overall price to the authority. The Authority, however, will not make any award at a significantly higher overall cost to the Authority to achieve only slightly superior technical features.

The Technical Evaluation Criteria are as follows in descending order of importance. The Evaluation Criteria identified in No. 1 are considered to be of prime and equal importance.
1. -- Technical Approach
-- Manufacturing Plan
-- Past Performance
2. -- Quality Assurance Plan
3. -- Participation of Minority and Women Owned Business Enterprises
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I can be proven wrong by going back to the thread's old pages, but I swear we already had the same conversation with the same active members involved reminding each other how the bidding process worked before the last time or maybe the time before the last time all the trains got pulled.
 
Four of them running on the OL this morning, looks like the problem has been reviewed and addressed.

Per newtrains.today at 8 AM!

Orange Line - #14 (01400+)
1458 northbound at Forest Hills
1432 southbound at Massachusetts Avenue
1430 southbound at Green Street
1436 southbound at Haymarket
There are currently 11 trips running older cars on the line.
 
It was reported that sometime over the weekend that the T was being investigated extensively for the seemingly constant removal of the new Orange Line trains from service & for the death of the passenger last month on the Red Line train whose doors cause the passenger's arm to get stuck in the doorway. 😱
 
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So it finally happened. Somebody burned down my she shed.

Actually I got to ride a new OL train. I give it a B/B-.

Positives: Love the look and the clean, sleek feel of the new OL train.

Seeing those doors close made me feel like I was on the original Star Trek set. Which is a high compliment.

You can hear the smooth dulcet tones of Charles Ogletree.

You can see the OL track map clearly.

There’s also a digital display for all the incoming bus transfers with the route numbers. Flawless

Negatives:

No announcements in Spanish. In fact, there’s nothing for non-English/ESL riders. I looked around for something in another language and felt disappointed. Not cool T.

The maps above the double doors weren’t electronic like in other cities. Just taped on like the other cars.

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kingofsheeba said:
The maps above the double doors weren’t electronic like in other cities. Just taped on like the other cars.
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I wonder why they didn't order electronic maps? Maybe they figured the digital displays were sufficient to convey information and electronic maps would just be one more thing to maintain. After all, the sticker maps can't exactly break.

kingofsheeba said:
No announcements in Spanish. In fact, there’s nothing for non-English/ESL riders. I looked around for something in another language and felt disappointed. Not cool T.
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I feel like if they had bilingual announcements it might get confusing, at least at the downtown stations that are pretty close together. The Blue Line's overly-talkative announcements frequently get cut off on the Government Center-State-Aquarium section, and that's with only having to make announcements in one language. (Knowing the T, though, it's probably just as likely that they didn't even bother considering it rather than refraining on feasibility grounds.)
 
kingofsheeba said:
No announcements in Spanish. In fact, there’s nothing for non-English/ESL riders. I looked around for something in another language and felt disappointed. Not cool T.
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I honestly don't think that's an issue. Singapore is even more of a bilingual society, with 4 officially recognized languages (English, Chinese Mandarin, Malay and Tamil), all of which are frequently used with more recognition than Spanish here. But SMRT, one of the main subway operators there, only does announcements in English.
 
Brattle Loop said:
I wonder why they didn't order electronic maps? Maybe they figured the digital displays were sufficient to convey information and electronic maps would just be one more thing to maintain. After all, the sticker maps can't exactly break.
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Yeah, that was my first call out way back when after touring the mock up car. Baffles me why they didn't go for an LED/LCD display with the current stop displaying and the rest of the stop like the new(ish) trains in NYC. I think there is probably some discussion about way back in this thread.
 
The electronic signs near the doors give you info on the bus lines, as well as the stops that the train is approaching. I think that they are tied in with the GPS system. :)
 
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Brattle Loop said:
I wonder why they didn't order electronic maps? Maybe they figured the digital displays were sufficient to convey information and electronic maps would just be one more thing to maintain. After all, the sticker maps can't exactly break.
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We also have to consider that the T is somewhat unusual in that there is no ability to mix rolling stock among different services. The point of the electric track maps is versatility. But in a system with no versatility, why bother?
 
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