New Red and Orange Line Cars

I went online to try to follow up on the new railcars. Here's some of what I found;


"CRRC is much further along on the Orange Line. The shells for all 152 cars have already been produced, and 78 are already in the MBTA’s Wellington car house or actively providing passenger service, Gonneville said. For the Red Line, only 32 of the 252 car shells have been produced, 12 of which are complete and available for MBTA use."

I've come to the realization that a lot of red tape & BS might be the problem, as they are claiming that there's a definite slowdown in production & manufacturing of the parts that's needed to finish the program. :unsure:
 
Jahvon09 said:
I've come to the realization that a lot of red tape & BS might be the problem, as they are claiming that there's a definite slowdown in production & manufacturing of the parts that's needed to finish the program. :unsure:
Click to expand...

Given the basis of common knowledge pieces of information of labor shortages, supply shipment bottlenecks, and CRRC being a Chinese company means an very reasonable guess most parts are being shipped in from China - one can make some reasonable but ultimately speculative theories. Being a poster here, you like have read a lot of the above to be able make such speculation.


....so how did you manage to speculate it's "red tape & BS". Red tape is usually a term to blame government interference, in more polite terms.
 
ant8904 said:
Given the basis of common knowledge pieces of information of labor shortages, supply shipment bottlenecks, and CRRC being a Chinese company means an very reasonable guess most parts are being shipped in from China - one can make some reasonable but ultimately speculative theories. Being a poster here, you like have read a lot of the above to be able make such speculation.


....so how did you manage to speculate it's "red tape & BS". Red tape is usually a term to blame government interference, in more polite terms.
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Here's the link.

www.masslive.com

Springfield-built MBTA train cars could take longer to hit subway lines

Chineses firm CRRC, which operates a plant in Springfield, asked for more time to finish building MBTA cars.
www.masslive.com www.masslive.com
 
ant8904 said:
Given the basis of common knowledge pieces of information of labor shortages, supply shipment bottlenecks, and CRRC being a Chinese company means an very reasonable guess most parts are being shipped in from China - one can make some reasonable but ultimately speculative theories. Being a poster here, you like have read a lot of the above to be able make such speculation.


....so how did you manage to speculate it's "red tape & BS". Red tape is usually a term to blame government interference, in more polite terms.
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As far as I know the shells are all coming from China (and thus big delays given all that is going on), but something like 80-90% of the actual components are sourced elsewhere. Not that it matters much: supply chain is hit everywhere, and as far as I know container shipping is still botched. CRRC also announced months ago that they were expecting delays and that for deliveries to slow/stop into the end of this year. The State/MBTA's response was not happy, and haven't seen anything past that. There could be a bit of national gamesmanship - certainly, though, CRRC isn't prioritizing our order (if they even could).
 
It's too bad as I had hoped that CRRC might provide us with a decent EMU
 
ant8904 said:
Given the basis of common knowledge pieces of information of labor shortages, supply shipment bottlenecks, and CRRC being a Chinese company means an very reasonable guess most parts are being shipped in from China - one can make some reasonable but ultimately speculative theories. Being a poster here, you like have read a lot of the above to be able make such speculation.


....so how did you manage to speculate it's "red tape & BS". Red tape is usually a term to blame government interference, in more polite terms.
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Yeah... Good call on mentioning this. Honest mistake.
It's funny how rah-rah business-speak has crippled our language.
This is clearly a failure of neo-liberal economics -- aka the usually blame-freed global free market.
We as a nation decided to forget how to build light rail trains domestically. This is our comeuppance.

As they say on Letterkenny "Figure it out".

Cribbed from Wikipedia --
Defunct locomotive companies
In addition to these, many railroads operating steam locomotives built locomotives in their shops. Notable examples include the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad's Mount Clare Shops, Norfolk and Western's Roanoke Shops, Pennsylvania Railroad's Altoona Works and the Southern Pacific's Sacramento Shops. An estimate of total steam locomotive production in the United States is about 175,000 engines, including nearly 70,000 by Baldwin.
  • Altoona Machine Shops (PRR)
  • American Locomotive Company (ALCO)
  • Amoskeag Locomotive Works
  • Appomattox Locomotive Works – operated by Uriah Wells
  • Atlas Car and Manufacturing Company
  • Baldwin Locomotive Works – later known as Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton
  • Bell Locomotive Works – New York City and Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania
  • Brooks Locomotive Works - to ALCO in 1901
  • Budd Company
  • Burr and Ettinger
  • Miniature Railway Company – also known as Cagney Bros.
  • Cincinnati Locomotive Works – also known as Harkness and as Moore & Richardson
  • Climax Manufacturing Company
  • Cooke Locomotive and Machine Works - began as Danforth Locomotive & Machine Company, later Danforth, Cooke, & Company, to ALCO in 1901
  • Covington Locomotive Works
  • Crown Metal Products
  • Custom Fabricators
  • Davenport Locomotive Works
  • Denmead
  • Dickson Manufacturing Company - to ALCO in 1901
  • Dunkirk Engineering Company
  • Eastwick and Harrison
  • Euclid Road Machinery Company
  • Fairbanks-Morse
  • Globe Locomotive Works
  • Glover Locomotive Works
  • Grant Locomotive Works
  • H.K. Porter, Inc. – Smith & Porter, later Porter, Bell & Co.
  • Heisler Locomotive Works
  • Hicks Locomotive and Car Works
  • Hinkley Locomotive Works
  • Hurlbut Amusement Co.
  • Ingalls Shipbuilding
  • Kentucky Locomotive Works
  • Lancaster Locomotive Works
  • Lawrence Machine Shop
  • Lima Locomotive Works – later Lima-Hamilton, then Baldwin-Lima-Hamilton
  • Locks and Canals Machine Shop
  • Lowell Machine Shop
  • Manchester Locomotive Works - to ALCO in 1901
  • Mason Machine Works
  • McQueen Locomotive Works
  • Mount Savage Locomotive Works
  • Nashville Manufacturing Company
  • New Castle Manufacturing Company
  • New Jersey Locomotive and Machine Company – began as Swinburne, Smith and Company
  • New York Locomotive Works – also known as Breese, Kneeland & Company
  • Niles and Company
  • Norris Locomotive Works
  • Ottaway Amusement Company
  • Pittsburgh Locomotive and Car Works - to ALCO in 1901
  • Plymouth Locomotive Works
  • Portland Company
  • Rhode Island Locomotive Works - to ALCO in 1901
  • Richmond Locomotive Works - to ALCO in 1901
  • Roanoke East End Shops
  • Rogers Locomotive and Machine Works – began as Rogers, Ketchum & Grosvenor, to ALCO in 1905
  • Rome Locomotive Works – New York
  • Ross Winans Locomotive Works
  • Schenectady Locomotive Works - later became American Locomotive Company (ALCO)
  • St. Louis Car Company
  • Swinburne, Smith and Company
  • Sygnet Rail Technologies
  • T. H. Paul & Sons
  • Talbott and Brother Iron Works
  • Taunton Locomotive Manufacturing Company
  • Tredegar Iron Works
  • Union Iron Works
  • United Aircraft
  • Virginia Locomotive and Car Works – also known as Smith & Perkins
  • Vulcan Iron Works
  • Wasatch Railroad Contractors – builder of brand-new 15 in (381 mm) gauge Cagney replica steam locomotives[104]
  • West Point Foundry
  • Westinghouse Electric Corporation (WEMCO)
  • Whitcomb Locomotive Works
  • Ernst Wiener Co., New York
  • Wilmarth
 
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BeyondRevenue said:
This is clearly a failure of neo-liberal economics -- aka the usually blame-freed global free market.
We as a nation decided to forget how to build light rail trains domestically. This is our comeuppance.
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Whether we had retained a domestic heavy rail manufacturing capacity or not would only matter if that (theoretical) manufacturing base was a.) not dependent on foreign-made components and b.) not itself subject to disruption. I agree that it's a market failure, in that manufacturing (just-in-time or otherwise) that depends on a global supply chain will invariably be subject to various disruptions that may not necessarily have affected past manufacturers on a more local/national scale to the same degree. On the other hand, the cost of running multiple fully-or-partially redundant supply chains is significantly higher (in effect, you're paying a premium for hedging against disruption risk), which would tend to make such rather uncompetitive in a market where the buyers aren't buying that often and are usually fairly cash-strapped.

Whether CRRC is organizationally worse than other bidders (and if so, the reasons for that), or more susceptible to disruption (i.e. did we get screwed because the shells are coming from a country that went uber-hard on the lockdowns) isn't really about economics or globalization: the T is an equal-opportunity buyer of crud, be it American (the unicorn HSPs and the FrankenGeeps), Italian (the derailment-happy Bredas), Korean (the Rotem cars of somewhat questionable build quality), or Chinese. Of course, among the worst equipment the T ever bought was the Boeing LRVs, which were thoroughly domestic and thoroughly crud. At some point it would probably be a good idea to have a PCC-style standardization of the best at least in terms of components; even without a domestic design-manufacture capacity cutting down on the damn customization (and focusing on the best/most robust component supply chains) would probably help with equipment quality rather than the parade of grab-bag parts shoved into shells from anywhere.
 
Think about it, guys;

CRRC was originally supposed to have the new cars ready for delivery at that first promised date.
Then the covid-19 pandemic hit, then the parts to help in assembly became hard to obtain. Then there's another delay. The MBTA has begun charging CRRC a late charge for $500 per car per day until another delivery date can be obtained. The MBTA is saying that it needs the new railcars, as it can't keep on going this way. The old cars on both lines are becoming harder & harder to maintain, as they are spending money to keep the old cars working while the new ones seem hopelessly on hold for who knows how long. CRRC needs to get it together if they want to get paid in an orderly fashion. :unsure:
 
Jahvon09 said:
Think about it, guys;

CRRC was originally supposed to have the new cars ready for delivery at that first promised date.
Then the covid-19 pandemic hit, then the parts to help in assembly became hard to obtain. Then there's another delay. The MBTA has begun charging CRRC a late charge for $500 per car per day until another delivery date can be obtained. The MBTA is saying that it needs the new railcars, as it can't keep on going this way. The old cars on both lines are becoming harder & harder to maintain, as they are spending money to keep the old cars working while the new ones seem hopelessly on hold for who knows how long. CRRC needs to get it together if they want to get paid in an orderly fashion. :unsure:
Click to expand...

Brah, think about what? Frankly, you just made a bunch of sentences that individually are not wrong, but it just does not connect in any coherent manner to make any insightful or meaningful point.

-----

Also to respond when you replied with that link. It's the same article as the one linked and discussed 3 months ago. You even quoted and responded to the wcvb version back then too. Regardless, linking the article does not reveal your thought process how you deduced "red tape and BS" implying governmental failures from the pieces of information from the article that implies market failures.
 
ant8904 said:
Brah, think about what? Frankly, you just made a bunch of sentences that individually are not wrong, but it just does not connect in any coherent manner to make any insightful or meaningful point.

-----

Also to respond when you replied with that link. It's the same article as the one linked and discussed 3 months ago. You even quoted and responded to the wcvb version back then too. Regardless, linking the article does not reveal your thought process how you deduced "red tape and BS" implying governmental failures from the pieces of information from the article that implies market failures.
Click to expand...

Too bad. You figure it out. I'm not going to waste my time with you any more!!
 
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Brattle Loop said:
So, uh, apparently something else went wrong with the new cars....

https://www.wcvb.com/article/electr...eral-orange-line-cars-out-of-service/42370557

As usual, the T apparently didn't bother to mention they'd pulled a bunch of the new trains until people caught on to the fact that service had declined precipitously...
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I'm usually pretty even-keeled when it comes to teething issues and challenges with new equipment, but it's starting to get a sinking feeling that the CRRC acquisition is going to go down in MBTA history books next to the names Boeing and Breda.
 
jdrinboston said:
I'm usually pretty even-keeled when it comes to teething issues and challenges with new equipment, but it's starting to get a sinking feeling that the CRRC acquisition is going to go down in MBTA history books next to the names Boeing and Breda.
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It's definitely been bumpy, but not to the level of either of those Green Line lemons, the Boeings in particular. That said, Green had the befit of an existing fleet (PCCs for the Boeings, Type 7s for the Bredas) capable of at least filling the gaps when things went badly wrong (particularly with the Bredas), while all Orange has is what's left of the rust-tastic #12 cars, so the immediate impact of problems with the CRRC cars is greater.
 
737900er said:
Which are still on the property and allegedly operable but aren't being used to backfill because 🤷‍♀️
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Having some #12s spontaneously combust after being pulled back into service due to the new fleet being pulled (again) would probably not look so great in front of the feds (since it's quite obvious the T doesn't care about actual rider optics at all).
 
Teban54 said:
Didn't the T have plans to run some Hawkers during peak hours for the winter schedule to boost frequencies? What happened to that?
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I believe that was the idea if they were able to hire/train dispatchers faster than finish new trains, they would then bring back what they needed from the old fleet until the new train production could catch up. Didn't CRRC say they were able to produce any new trains until next year (and essentially had no delivers the later half of this year)?
 
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Teban54 said:
Didn't the T have plans to run some Hawkers during peak hours for the winter schedule to boost frequencies? What happened to that?
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Yes, they did.

Seemed to have backtracked on that, even though peak hour frequencies have been increased slightly on Red and significantly on Blue. No indication of why (could either be just they like the optics of only running new trains, or could be a concern about the Hawkers largely sitting for 4+ months with only some non-revenue runs and a single revenue run during the December 10 shuttle that broke down at Green Street, triggering additional shuttles.)

bakgwailo said:
I believe that was the idea if they were able to hire/train dispatchers faster than finish new trains, they would then bring back what they needed from the old fleet until the new train production could catch up. Didn't CRRC say they were able to produce any new trains until next year (and essentially had no delivers the later half of this year)?
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Yes, no new deliveries since June. They have 74 deliveries left on the Orange Line; if their target is still 4 cars a month (this was as of a few years ago -- not sure if they have increased that target or not) once delivery resumes, if that were to start this month and if they were to stick to it consistently, the Orange order would not be complete until July of 2024 -- and it would likely be far longer for the Red Line given that Orange is their priority right now and Red has only had 12 cars delivered in 3 years. Hopefully, they can find a way to crank the Orange Line deliveries up to 6 cars per month (order would be complete January 2024) or even 8 cars per month (order would be complete September 2023), but I'm not optimistic whatsoever.

As for the Red Line, with only 32 shells complete as of the early fall (12 assembled+delivered and 20 awaiting assembly)..... it might be a while, given it's a 252 car order. Not to get too deep into speculation land, but it wouldn't surprise me at this point if the Red Line order isn't done until 2026 or 2027.
 
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nbcoram said:
Yes, no new deliveries since June. They have 74 deliveries left on the Orange Line; if their target is still 4 cars a month (this was as of a few years ago -- not sure if they have increased that target or not) once delivery resumes, if that were to start this month and if they were to stick to it consistently, the Orange order would not be complete until July of 2024 -- and it would likely be far longer for the Red Line given that Orange is their priority right now and Red has only had 12 cars delivered in 3 years. Hopefully, they can find a way to crank the Orange Line deliveries up to 6 cars per month (order would be complete January 2024) or even 8 cars per month (order would be complete September 2023), but I'm not optimistic whatsoever.
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Is the data via TransitHistory or is there other sources? The last wave of media coverage in regards to CRRC deliveries seem to be all roughly around end of September. Those articles reported it was suppose be done 1 year ago, all 152 carbodies has been made, and new project target is Summer 2023.

The last media reports I saw seem to be implying the MBTA hope to help the situation by a combination of prioritizing any effort left on Red to Orange plus dangling the possibility of executing the late clause on the contract. But why has deliveries has not increased, not just merely decreased, but outright 0 for the past 6 months? What's been happening since June (or September)?

(I mean I know the standard explanation of labor shortages, supply constraints, and pandemic issues. But know the specific bottleneck would still help. Like the chip shortage meant tons of otherwise completed cars waiting in lots for chips back in 2021 so growing reports of the chip swing back to glut should mean relief for the car deliveries soon. But what's going happening more with the CRRC trains?)
 
nbcoram said:
Yes, they did.

Seemed to have backtracked on that, even though peak hour frequencies have been increased slightly on Red and significantly on Blue. No indication of why (could either be just they like the optics of only running new trains, or could be a concern about the Hawkers largely sitting for 4+ months with only some non-revenue runs and a single revenue run during the December 10 shuttle that broke down at Green Street, triggering additional shuttles.)


Yes, no new deliveries since June. They have 74 deliveries left on the Orange Line; if their target is still 4 cars a month (this was as of a few years ago -- not sure if they have increased that target or not) once delivery resumes, if that were to start this month and if they were to stick to it consistently, the Orange order would not be complete until July of 2024 -- and it would likely be far longer for the Red Line given that Orange is their priority right now and Red has only had 12 cars delivered in 3 years. Hopefully, they can find a way to crank the Orange Line deliveries up to 6 cars per month (order would be complete January 2024) or even 8 cars per month (order would be complete September 2023), but I'm not optimistic whatsoever.

As for the Red Line, with only 32 shells complete as of the early fall (12 assembled+delivered and 20 awaiting assembly)..... it might be a while, given it's a 252 car order. Not to get too deep into speculation land, but it wouldn't surprise me at this point if the Red Line order isn't done until 2026 or 2027.
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For someone reading this as to what this means. This probably means that reduced frequencies and longer headways for the Orange and Red Lines will probably continue for the next several years. I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Line faces even longer headways and even lower frequencies sometime in the next few years before the new Red Line cars roll out. I'd assume even more issues and disruptions for the old Red Line cars, which might mean less operable cars over time (hence the Red Line's reduced frequencies and longer headways that have yet to materialize).
 
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