New Red and Orange Line Cars

[nbcoram]

Is the data via TransitHistory or is there other sources? The last wave of media coverage in regards to CRRC deliveries seem to be all roughly around end of September. Those articles reported it was suppose be done 1 year ago, all 152 carbodies has been made, and new project target is Summer 2023.

The last media reports I saw seem to be implying the MBTA hope to help the situation by a combination of prioritizing any effort left on Red to Orange plus dangling the possibility of executing the late clause on the contract. But why has deliveries has not increased, not just merely decreased, but outright 0 for the past 6 months? What's been happening since June (or September)?

(I mean I know the standard explanation of labor shortages, supply constraints, and pandemic issues. But know the specific bottleneck would still help. Like the chip shortage meant tons of otherwise completed cars waiting in lots for chips back in 2021 so growing reports of the chip swing back to glut should mean relief for the car deliveries soon. But what's going happening more with the CRRC trains?)

BSRA (which runs the transit history log) has confirmed at several meetings that the MBTA has not gotten any deliveries since June.

All 152 carbodies are indeed complete for the Orange Line (as you pointed out, this is as of late September when the MBTA provided an update at a board meeting), but the shells need to come over here from China (which is not easy at the moment for a number of reasons) and then be assembled in Springfield (a facility littered with QC issues).

There haven't been any updates since the fall, other than BSRA not logging any new deliveries. And nobody has gotten into any more specific detail than what either of us have presented. It would definitely be nice to know more about the specific bottleneck(s), be it chip manufacturing issues or shipping container issues or stuff in Springfield or anything else. Best case scenario is it's a chip issue - if the cars are awaiting just chips then it's possible they could exceed delivery goals once they're in. Even then, it will take a bit of time for the Springfield factory to deliver 74 railcars.

And none of that accounts for why they've only made 32 carbodies (may be higher now) for the Red Line in ~3 years. Even with the prioritization of the Orange order and covid-related issues, that is still........bad.

A bit more transparency would go a long way. The MBTA seemed to be frustrated with CRRC based on how the September board meeting went and I don't blame them.

 

[nbcoram]

A Globe columnist published a piece today about the CRRC factory being a tire fire. It's officially an opinion piece (click here to read) but it cited a letter quietly sent just before Christmas by Mark DeVitto, MBTA Deputy Director of Vehicle Engineering, to CRRC.

To say the letter to CRRC is damning would be an understatement.

It's linked here, but I'll just leave the opening and closing statements (and also mention that he cited 16 areas of major concern in the middle).

The MBTA writes this letter in the backdrop of several significant lapses in overall quality management for the Red and Orange Line project. The MBTA has drawn CRRC’s attention to these lapses at Weekly Production Review Meetings, Monthly Quality Review Meetings, at Directors’ Meetings and through numerous project letters. Unfortunately, no meaningful progress has been made by CRRC to address these concerns despite several commitments by CRRC’s Management to address these over the period of the last several years.

Given the breadth, number and age of chronic quality issues that have remained unresolved, it becomes abundantly clear that CRRC MA’s Management has completely abandoned its core responsibility and commitment to lead, monitor, mentor, and support quality management (QA and QC) functions within CRRC MA. This situation has already caused major disruptions, rework and delays in production and delivery of Orange and Red Line Cars.

The MBTA remains greatly concerned that the situation will only degrade further unless CRRC Senior Management intervenes immediately to develop a plan of interim short-term and long-term actions to remedy the situation.

Please respond within 7 days of this letter detailing CRRC’s plan of actions, responsible personnel, due date commitments and resources allocated to accomplish the goals by due dates.

Just.... wow. Not only is the Springfield factory a total disaster (as has been stated here before and is made obvious throughout the letter), but CRRC's management just seems to have stopped caring (which also isn't surprising).

 

[bakgwailo]

The orange line is kind of screwed, but I wonder if there is a point at which they scrap the red line order and just put it out to RFP again with the designs done and no build in MA requirements.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The orange line is kind of screwed, but I wonder if there is a point at which they scrap the red line order and just put it out to RFP again with the designs done and no build in MA requirements.

That can't be done without the state taking a massive loss on the contract. It's only when you can point to design flaws so severe that there's little to no hope of the cars ever getting better with time, and we're definitely not there. It's still too early for the "lemon" label; these appear to be way more failures of process than failures of engineering. Contract termination was attempted with the Boeing and Breda LRV's as both orders were truncated shy of their originally intended fleet numbers...but the lemony stink was all-consuming by that point, and those truncation deals cut were still not exactly good outcomes for the state. For the foreseeable future it's still going to be the way better outcome to try to nurse this deployment back to health rather than cut it loose and have nothing whatsoever to count on for Red's woes for at least another half-decade it would take to re-bid.

 

[ulrichomega]

How many of the old Orange Line cars are even still available for service? I thought they'd been sold for scrap (though obviously not all taken off property yet).

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

How many of the old Orange Line cars are even still available for service? I thought they'd been sold for scrap (though obviously not all taken off property yet).

48 are still listed "in-service" according to the NETransit tracker.

 

[ant8904]

these appear to be way more failures of process than failures of engineering

For the foreseeable future it's still going to be the way better outcome to try to nurse this deployment back to health

So here's a question - can failures of process without design flaws reach that point for the "lemon" label? Because it does look like it's very possible that design-wise, the CRRC trains are fine. But the newest reports is starting to sound like the core issue could be CRRC has checked out. Not merely new factory or even bad corporate culture (possibly the outright rejected CSR corporate culture), but just given up. For lack of a better analogy I can think up, like trying to demand a K-Mart employee to stock shelves better when the store will close when the last items gets liquidated.

 

[737900er]

The orange line is kind of screwed, but I wonder if there is a point at which they scrap the red line order and just put it out to RFP again with the designs done and no build in MA requirements.

As F-Line says it's hard to get out of the contract at this point, and the entire relationship is governed by that document.

What's interesting to me is how differently the T's contract with CRRC for heavy rail cars is structured compared to Los Angeles':

http://libraryarchives.metro.net/DPGTL/FTA Quarterly Review Briefing Book/2019-december-fta-quarterly-review-briefing-book.pdf (p316)

In theory they could have structured the contract such that the Red cars would be ordered as an option if they were happy with the Orange ones, but the T's fleet issues meant they almost had to put most their eggs in one basket (which they then doubled-down on to all of their eggs).

Some cursory research suggests Los Angeles may not be exercising the options because of CRRC's issues, but I couldn't find anything definitive.

 

[Brattle Loop]

So here's a question - can failures of process without design flaws reach that point for the "lemon" label? Because it does look like it's very possible that design-wise, the CRRC trains are fine. But the newest reports is starting to sound like the core issue could be CRRC has checked out. Not merely new factory or even bad corporate culture (possibly the outright rejected CSR corporate culture), but just given up. For lack of a better analogy I can think up, like trying to demand a K-Mart employee to stock shelves better when the store will close when the last items gets liquidated.

I'd imagine that, subject to any relevant contractual provisions, the most they'd be able to do is to extract penalties for late, shoddy work, not to mention make CRRC fix them on their dime such that they work to specification (i.e., fix any of the results of shoddy work under warranty). Lousy process is probably sending CRRC's costs for fixing the cars they failed quality control on through the stratosphere, but that's a whole order of things different from the cars being (to some degree) un-fixable (kind of like the Boeings), which is where we'd get into lemon territory. F-Line might know specifically, but I'd guess that, contractually, it doesn't matter that much if the cars are to-standard off the production line or if it's after a bunch of post-production (post-delivery?) work, so long as CRRC eventually gets them to standard (and has to eat the cost of getting to that point), as opposed to if the things couldn't be made to meet the specifications.

 

[FK4]

I'd imagine that, subject to any relevant contractual provisions, the most they'd be able to do is to extract penalties for late, shoddy work, not to mention make CRRC fix them on their dime such that they work to specification (i.e., fix any of the results of shoddy work under warranty). Lousy process is probably sending CRRC's costs for fixing the cars they failed quality control on through the stratosphere, but that's a whole order of things different from the cars being (to some degree) un-fixable (kind of like the Boeings), which is where we'd get into lemon territory. F-Line might know specifically, but I'd guess that, contractually, it doesn't matter that much if the cars are to-standard off the production line or if it's after a bunch of post-production (post-delivery?) work, so long as CRRC eventually gets them to standard (and has to eat the cost of getting to that point), as opposed to if the things couldn't be made to meet the specifications.

Could the state just sue CRRC for damages / cost recovery? And leave the contract in place? If this were a private company, no way any board would allow such a shitshow to go down without a lawsuit.

 

[Brattle Loop]

Could the state just sue CRRC for damages / cost recovery? And leave the contract in place? If this were a private company, no way any board would allow such a shitshow to go down without a lawsuit.

I'm not a lawyer (I usually add that disclaimer, but clearly forgot last post, my bad) so I don't know specifically. That said, you can't just sue because you feel like it (well, at least, not if you want to win). The contract will have terms and conditions of what CRRC is obliged to deliver, and presumably has specifics on things like penalties for late delivery (possibly subject to dispute and litigation over the causes: i.e. if it's circumstances beyond CRRC's control or not). Unless the contract specifies otherwise, the T doesn't have some kind of a legal right to control how CRRC runs their factories or delivers their products, though they absolutely do have the right to enforce their contractual provisions on what CRRC is obliged to deliver to them (and make them pay any relevant penalties if they don't). The lawsuits (public sector or not) would come when an entity was trying to get out of a contract (either actually or as a mechanism to renegotiate, which the T attempted to do, with at least limited success, in the case of the Breda and Boeing limes). The T doesn't really have the option of abandoning the CRRC cars, because the Red and especially Orange fleets don't have enough time left to handle the delay of a new procurement cycle. If CRRC continues to have problems, and specifically if they don't fix the issues the T identified, I suppose it's possible that the T could try and take them to court on the basis that they're utterly failing in their contractual commitments, but absent specific provisions that CRRC is violating, I don't know that that would necessarily be a good or successful strategy.

 

[Wash]

Is it too late to arrange a crash refit of at least some of the 1800-series Red Line cars?

 

[737900er]

Is it too late to arrange a crash refit of at least some of the 1800-series Red Line cars?

One of the reasons we're in this mess is that the rebuild of the 1800s was estimated to be very expensive so they opted to just replace them with the supplemental order. Rebuild of 86 cars was estimated at $204M and buying 120 cars was $240M.

https://bc.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/About_the_T/Board_Meetings/4.%20%20%20%20Red%20Line%203%20--%20FMCB%20Meeting%20Slides%20FINAL_vF.pdf

 

[Jahvon09]

The one & only new Red Line train that's in use doesn't seem to have or show any problems. Why are there so many damn problems with the new Orange Line trains? One thing after the other! Seems like after the 30-day shutdown last summer, things are more worst than ever before the shutdown. The MBTA needs to get on CRRC to get the rest of the new cars made & to help get the ones in use fixed. This is ridiculous. The FTA should've stayed until everything was working right with this line! It's no better than it was last summer before the shutdown!. Seems like everything is falling apart, still. Maybe we should start calling the Orange Line the Lemon Line because the new trains are just that - LEMONS!

 

[Jahvon09]

I heard & read that the MBTA is contemplating returning some of the old OL trains to cover for the new ones they took out of service because now, there are not enough new trains to keep the line going! Who in the Sam Hill wants to see those old trains? We'll NEVER stop seeing them as long as the new cars keep on breaking down. GET THEM FIXED ONCE & FOR ALL!! I knew that this wouldn't work.

 

[Wash]

Workers building the new Orange and Red Line cars in Springfield describe a toxic, error-prone factory - The Boston Globe

Interviews with several former workers at the CRRC Corp. facility in Western Massachusetts describe a dysfunctional scene on the factory floor, showing a chaotic and often harrowing environment prone to mishaps and delays long before the pandemic began.

www.bostonglobe.com

Among many other bombshells:

"In a Dec. 14 letter to CRRC’s project manager obtained by the Globe, the MBTA’s DeVitto said Wabtec Corp., the company producing the cars’ brakes, HVAC systems, couplers, and doors, and Mitsubishi Electric Power Products Inc., which produces the propulsion systems, 'are currently withdrawing their support due to commercial issues.' Notes from meetings held between CRRC and the MBTA last year obtained by the Globe said Wabtec reported 'insufficient payment from CRRC.' A spokesperson from Wabtec did not respond to requests for comment, and spokespeople for Mitsubishi could not be reached".

 

[Jahvon09]

Looks like we're not gonna get all the new cars in time because CRRC is screwing things up by not paying for supplies. I somehow KNEW that this would happen!! Send these back & get new ones from another company!!

 

[Brattle Loop]

end these back & get new ones from another company!!

Mhmm, because there's another manufacturer with a surplus of cars just waiting to go that somehow miraculously fit our idiosyncratic tunnel dimensions?

It's absolutely understandable to be irate about CRRC's failures and their impacts on the T's ability to provide reliable and sufficient (and safe) service. It's also understandable to note that people could and did flag CRRC's bid as problematic, in part because it involved them standing up a completely new factory in a country where they'd never done business...all for a distinctly low price.

But, regrettably, at this point, simply walking away isn't really a viable solution. Time between placing an order for new rolling stock and the first deliveries is measured in years. Starting back at square one with a new manufacturer would mean it'd probably be 2026-2027 at best by the time new equipment deliveries were steadily ongoing, assuming nothing significant went wrong with the new order. The old fleets almost certainly don't have that much time, meaning we'd be in an even worse situation we're in now. That's a route you only take if the CRRC project is completely unrecoverable, which it isn't. It sucks, because a lot of this was absolutely predictable and absolutely avoidable, but the time when the state could (and arguably should) have washed its hands of this was years ago; now, we're stuck. Yet again.

 

[Jahvon09]

Mhmm, because there's another manufacturer with a surplus of cars just waiting to go that somehow miraculously fit our idiosyncratic tunnel dimensions?

It's absolutely understandable to be irate about CRRC's failures and their impacts on the T's ability to provide reliable and sufficient (and safe) service. It's also understandable to note that people could and did flag CRRC's bid as problematic, in part because it involved them standing up a completely new factory in a country where they'd never done business...all for a distinctly low price.

But, regrettably, at this point, simply walking away isn't really a viable solution. Time between placing an order for new rolling stock and the first deliveries is measured in years. Starting back at square one with a new manufacturer would mean it'd probably be 2026-2027 at best by the time new equipment deliveries were steadily ongoing, assuming nothing significant went wrong with the new order. The old fleets almost certainly don't have that much time, meaning we'd be in an even worse situation we're in now. That's a route you only take if the CRRC project is completely unrecoverable, which it isn't. It sucks, because a lot of this was absolutely predictable and absolutely avoidable, but the time when the state could (and arguably should) have washed its hands of this was years ago; now, we're stuck. Yet again.

Yet another reason NOT to buy rolling stock from a Chinese maker. Sadly, we're stuck up the creek without a paddle or a boat. CRRC has to fix this snafu & fix it quick!! We can't keep on going like this! And even though the MBTA thought that it had enough of the new cars on the Orange Line to get by, once again, it is thinking about bringing back those old rust buckets to help out!! This is so utterly ridiculous to have to keep going back to these old cars. We'll NEVER see the full line of new cars as was once promised to us! And also, those old trains have pieces of metal falling off the sides touching the third rail & catching fire!!! Do they really want to risk THAT again?!!

 

[Brattle Loop]

Yet another reason NOT to buy rolling stock from a Chinese maker

Yup, just like the previous fiasco with Breda. Oh, wait, they're Italian. Or Boeing. No, hang on, they're American.

It's a good question, albeit one we're not likely to ever fully get an answer to, what things went wrong to make this procurement go so disastrously off the rails (pun fully intended). Obviously standing up a new factory (which was in essence a state requirement, given how much the Patrick administration wanted the things made in a.) MA and b.) Springfield) was always going to be a significant risk area no matter which bidder was selected, because doing that in new territory that lacks a pool of industry-skilled workers is always tricky. Doing it with a US-untested bidder (which was made more likely by the in-state requirement because the established manufacturers with US experience already have/had existing US facilities outside MA) was another risk introduced by the way the state went about things. That both of those things were supposedly achievable in a bid way below the others implies either or both of additional risk (that the company is underestimating the task) or heavy subsidies (which may or may not continue if events change), all of which makes the situation thornier. Then there's the question of whether CRRC itself is structured and/or run particularly poorly (and if I recall correctly, CRRC was formed after the bid was accepted, merging the winner with another company which had had not scored well on the technical criteria).

None of those have anything inherently to do with CRRC being specifically a Chinese company, and two of them (the in-state requirement and the likely result of a US-untested bidder) were unforced errors deliberately introduced for political purposes by the Patrick administration. Absolutely, this process indicates that fudging procurements for political purposes introduces unnecessary complications that increase the risk of problems, and it certainly implies that CRRC's bid was at best far too good to be true, and may well indicate that CRRC (much like Rotem's American misadventure) should not be considered a reliable option. But, no, let's not actually consider any of that, and just chalk it up to the fact that they're a Chinese manufacturer... /s