New Red and Orange Line Cars

Jahvon09

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The #5 cars absolutely had an inward curve at the base of the side walls near the floor, similar to the #1-2 Red Line cars. It's less pronounced than the 'bowed' effect visible on the #3 (01800) cars. To my eye the new #4 cars shape looks more like the Bombardier #3s than the old Bluebirds (pity, those had a nice look to them).

I only remember the Old Blue Line Bluebirds as have straight sided walls, unless you've seen one somewhere before. :unsure:
 

Brattle Loop

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I only remember the Old Blue Line Bluebirds as have straight sided walls, unless you've seen one somewhere before. :unsure:
Maybe we're talking about different things, because "Bluebirds" as I understand them are the #5 Cambridge-Dorchester cars (01400 series), which absolutely have a (fairly subtle) inward curve of the sides near the floor as is visible in this picture you posted. It's a similar profile to the 01500-01700 series, and a different shape than the more-obviously not-flat 01800 and 1900 series. Contrast that with the #1-4 Cambridge-Dorchester cars as in this picture, which have completely-straight sides. As far as I know, everything heavy rail had pure straight-flat sides until the #11 Main Line (Pullman 01100 series Orange Line), #5 Cambridge-Dorchester (Pullman 01400 series Red Line), and #4 East Boston Tunnel (Hawker 0600 series Blue Line) cars.

Related, but more directly on topic to this thread, does anyone have a side-by-side (head-on) view of the new CRRC Red Line cars with any of the older Red Line cars (particularly the 01800s)? I've been trying to tell if they're the same profile or not.
 

Jahvon09

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Maybe we're talking about different things, because "Bluebirds" as I understand them are the #5 Cambridge-Dorchester cars (01400 series), which absolutely have a (fairly subtle) inward curve of the sides near the floor as is visible in this picture you posted. It's a similar profile to the 01500-01700 series, and a different shape than the more-obviously not-flat 01800 and 1900 series. Contrast that with the #1-4 Cambridge-Dorchester cars as in this picture, which have completely-straight sides. As far as I know, everything heavy rail had pure straight-flat sides until the #11 Main Line (Pullman 01100 series Orange Line), #5 Cambridge-Dorchester (Pullman 01400 series Red Line), and #4 East Boston Tunnel (Hawker 0600 series Blue Line) cars.

Related, but more directly on topic to this thread, does anyone have a side-by-side (head-on) view of the new CRRC Red Line cars with any of the older Red Line cars (particularly the 01800s)? I've been trying to tell if they're the same profile or not.
I think that one thing IS for sure. When the time come for the MBTA to replace the new 1400's & 1900's, I'm willing to bet that it won't be looking to CRRC to replace them. Just look at how troublesome & problematic that the new Orang Line cars have become since they were put in service!!!! Not to mention the massive headaches in trying to get them all delivered in a timely fashion!! It will probably be looking elsewhere for new trains. Yeah, they look so sleek & shiny, but the commuters will probably have the last word on THESE!! :eek:
 
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Brattle Loop

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I think that one thing IS for sure. When the time come for the MBTA to replace the new 1400's & 1900's, I'm willing to bet that they won't be looking to CRRC to replace them. Just look at how troublesome & problematic that the new Orang Line cars have become since they were put in service!!!! :eek:
CRRC's probably going to join Breda on the MBTA's "no way" list unless they can iron out the problems with the Springfield factory. I'd be more than a little surprised to see a governor willing to sign another deal with them without some ironclad assurances that the procurement won't turn into a mess (and I say that despite the Springfield factory nominally being a political plus for CRRC's bids).
 

Jahvon09

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The new gov/elect still has yet to name the new GM for the T. Aside from the fact that the entire T is still a mess, I've yet to hear of anyone being named to man the MBTA. Hopefully, it'll come soon, & I hope & pray that it'll be someone who is more of an "iron fist" then Steve Poftak was!! :mad:
 

bakgwailo

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CRRC's probably going to join Breda on the MBTA's "no way" list unless they can iron out the problems with the Springfield factory. I'd be more than a little surprised to see a governor willing to sign another deal with them without some ironclad assurances that the procurement won't turn into a mess (and I say that despite the Springfield factory nominally being a political plus for CRRC's bids).
Well replacing the new 1400s and 1900s, baring some catastrophic collapse in the contract or long term issues would be 20-40 years in the future, so who knows if CRRC will even be around then, or what it would have morphed into - same with the MBTA.
 

Jahvon09

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Well replacing the new 1400s and 1900s, baring some catastrophic collapse in the contract or long term issues would be 20-40 years in the future, so who knows if CRRC will even be around then, or what it would have morphed into - same with the MBTA.
The MBTA almost lost its management procedures when the FTA had temporally stepped in to assess the mess that the T has gotten into with poor management, crashes, 2 needless deaths, crappy care of the lines, needless Green Line derailments & runaway trains. It's just too bad that they didn't stick around longer because things are still a mess!! :eek: :eek::eek:
 

bakgwailo

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New estimate of 2027 for the full rollout. Looks like CRRC is also trying to get up to $35m more due to Trump's tariffs that increased costs. T is looking into exercising the contractual $500 a day penalty for late vehicles. An I missing something on that, though? That's like like $180k a year which is basically nothing on a billion dollar contract. Is it per late car or something?

The Commonwealth magazine article also points out that there was a federal act passed barring federal funds from being used to purchase Chinese rolling stock, and that there are no orders for the Springfield plant passed this. Essentially the US/NA market is completely dead for CRRC which further brings into question what motivation, if any, CRRC has on getting things together here.
 

Jahvon09

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New estimate of 2027 for the full rollout. Looks like CRRC is also trying to get up to $35m more due to Trump's tariffs that increased costs. T is looking into exercising the contractual $500 a day penalty for late vehicles. An I missing something on that, though? That's like like $180k a year which is basically nothing on a billion dollar contract. Is it per late car or something?

The Commonwealth magazine article also points out that there was a federal act passed barring federal funds from being used to purchase Chinese rolling stock, and that there are no orders for the Springfield plant passed this. Essentially the US/NA market is completely dead for CRRC which further brings into question what motivation, if any, CRRC has on getting things together here.

I just received an e-mail, saying that the MBTA is expecting the new Red & Orange Line cars to be delayed YET AGAIN, even though the new vehicles were supposed to be delivered under the so-called newly ratified delivery dates!! Of the summer this year for the new Orange Line cars & sometime next year fo the rest of the new Red Line cars. I hope that this co. is NEVER ASKED AGAIN to make any more new railcars for the T!! :mad:
 

king_vibe

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One thing that China has figured out is how to properly punish incompetent public officials who make embarrassing and costly mistakes. We could learn from them.
 

Brattle Loop

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One thing that China has figured out is how to properly punish incompetent public officials who make embarrassing and costly mistakes. We could learn from them.
Who do you even punish? This order was placed in 2014, under the Patrick administration. How many of the decisionmakers are even still in government or still working for the T?
 

Stlin

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New estimate of 2027 for the full rollout. Looks like CRRC is also trying to get up to $35m more due to Trump's tariffs that increased costs. T is looking into exercising the contractual $500 a day penalty for late vehicles. An I missing something on that, though? That's like like $180k a year which is basically nothing on a billion dollar contract. Is it per late car or something?

The Commonwealth magazine article also points out that there was a federal act passed barring federal funds from being used to purchase Chinese rolling stock, and that there are no orders for the Springfield plant passed this. Essentially the US/NA market is completely dead for CRRC which further brings into question what motivation, if any, CRRC has on getting things together here.
The part you're missing is that the penalty is per vehicle, per day. Across say, the 240 pending out of 252 car Red Line order, (which was scheduled to be completed by Sept 23) that's ~$43 million a year, and say another $15m more already owed for the OL order which was supposed to be completed by Jan 22.
 

Jahvon09

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Looks like the T has finally, & at long last, has decided to open its mouth about the seemingly exasperating long delays about why it is not getting the vehicles delivered as promised. It's about high time that it put it's foot down!!!

 

Equilibria

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The part you're missing is that the penalty is per vehicle, per day. Across say, the 240 pending out of 252 car Red Line order, (which was scheduled to be completed by Sept 23) that's ~$43 million a year, and say another $15m more already owed for the OL order which was supposed to be completed by Jan 22.
But how do you collect that? By suing the Chinese Communist Party? Worst that happens for them is they get run out of the US, but Congress already barred them, so they have nothing to lose.

There's no good ending here. I honestly think it's not unlikely that the T has to eat this and start over with another decade-long procurement, and the only people who see any punishment are the riders.
 

Stlin

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But how do you collect that? By suing the Chinese Communist Party? Worst that happens for them is they get run out of the US, but Congress already barred them, so they have nothing to lose.

There's no good ending here. I honestly think it's not unlikely that the T has to eat this and start over with another decade-long procurement, and the only people who see any punishment are the riders.
Frankly, the T hasn't paid the majority of the contract value yet - more than half is tied up as part of the undelivered Red Line fleet. Like most big commercial capital things, payment in full is predicated upon delivery, the rest on certain milestones. 50% of the contract value was held back to be paid on a pro rata basis upon delivery and acceptance of each vehicle, and only 44 out of 252 car shells have been built for RL. If the T were to need to enforce the terms of it's penalty agreement, I would assume the T would simply deduct it from it's payables - and if CRRC is out of the US market regardless, the the T also has limited need to play nice for the sake of support and future relations.

Screenshot_20230126_220137_Adobe Acrobat.jpg
 
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Jahvon09

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But how do you collect that? By suing the Chinese Communist Party? Worst that happens for them is they get run out of the US, but Congress already barred them, so they have nothing to lose.

There's no good ending here. I honestly think it's not unlikely that the T has to eat this and start over with another decade-long procurement, and the only people who see any punishment are the riders.

I think that I mentioned that in several earlier posts myself. Needless to say, that it doesn't seem to phase CRRC. They are seemingly treating it as if to say; "So what? We'll pay it in due time. It still does not mean that you'll get the new railcars as we promised. We're gonna take our time until we see fit to do it!!" :unsure:
 

Equilibria

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Frankly, the T hasn't paid the majority of the contract value yet - more than half is tied up as part of the undelivered Red Line fleet. Like most big commercial capital things, payment in full is predicated upon delivery, the rest on certain milestones. 50% of the contract value was held back to be paid on a pro rata basis upon delivery and acceptance of each vehicle.
View attachment 33528
If the T were to need to enforce the terms of it's penalty agreement, I would assume the T would simply deduct it from it's payables - and if CRRC is out of the US market regardless, the the T also has limited need to play nice for the sake of support and future relations.
All true, but it will still be 10 years before the Red Line gets new vehicles, and that's if they have the guts to give up (and fire a bunch of people in an economically-underinvested part of the Commonwealth) now.
 

Jahvon09

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All true, but it will still be 10 years before the Red Line gets new vehicles, and that's if they have the guts to give up (and fire a bunch of people in an economically-underinvested part of the Commonwealth) now.
This is why I say that I hope that the next gm comes in with some teeth & an iron fist! There seems to be too many employees slacking off & not doing their jobs. As though the buck get passed from one person to the other. There's no manning up or taking responsibilities. As though everyone is pointing fingers. In the meantime, nothing gets done & things are still a big mess. :unsure:
 

Jahvon09

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Here's more on the new Orange Line cars:

 

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