New Red and Orange Line Cars

Jahvon09 said:
The standard design for all styles of the OL cars has always been 3 doors on each side. This goes all the way back to the early days of the El.

Just like 2 on each side for the BL cars & four on each side for the RL cars.
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Only the 1800 series on the Red have 4 doors a side - the others have 3. Still, I was just wondering on the pros/cons of 3 really wide vs 4 not so wide on the OL (since Red is going full 4 doors and replacing all 3 door stock). I guess its pretty moot though as it seems there wouldn't be enough room on the OL to squeeze an extra set in.
 
In any case, wider doors are becoming the norm, to make the rail cars more ADA accessible for commuters in wheelchairs. :cool:
 
That's great!! Did not expect that, glad to see that some states are smart enough to not force rail manufactures to build a new facility everytime an order is made.
 
I believe part of the idea is it would lead to having a facility is to become a place for other orders. Of course, it wouldn't work if every state requires its own facility, but fortunately at least CA didn't require it.
 
FMCB to decide tonight whether to replace entire Red line fleet, over refurb'ing the fleet - adding 30 additional trainsets to the contract.

MBTA seeks to replace entire aging Red Line fleet with $280M contract
Matt Stout Monday, December 12, 2016

The MBTA is seeking to buy up to $280 million in new Red Line cars from the same Chinese company that's already building dozens of others, in a move that would replace the line's entire aging fleet by 2023 and add more than 30 trains.

The proposed contract with the China Railroad Rolling Stock Corp., or CRRC, includes up to 134 new Red Line train cars, and, if approved today by the T's Fiscal Management and Control Board, would scrap a plan to instead overhaul nearly 90 of the decades-old cars the T is currently using.

The contract would come on top of a $565 deal the T already has with the CRRC, which has a new factory in Springfield, to build a new fleet of Orange Line cars and 132 other Red Line cars.

The T is proposing to move ahead without putting the new contract out to bid, arguing that the agency is better served by having an entire fleet of new, interchangeable cars built by the one manufacturer.

"It represents what we've been trying to do with the MBTA: A different way of thinking, a different way of acting, a focus on the future," Stephanie Pollack, the state's secretary of transportation, told reporters ahead of the board's vote. "It would have been a mistake to do the rehab" of the cars as opposed to buying new ones.

T officials said it will cost the agency roughly $310,000 less per car to buy new ones instead of refurbishing them.

Instead of moving ahead with the original plan to overhaul dozens of old cars -- which had been in use since 1993 -- the T said it will spend about $33 million to work on and maintain them until the full fleet of new cars arrive in more than six years.
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ARTICLE
 
130 new red line cars approved by FMCB. Production will start after all cars in current Red/Orange line contract are delivered and in service.
 
matredsoxfan said:
130 new red line cars approved by FMCB. Production will start after all cars in current Red/Orange line contract are delivered and in service.
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Ah. Articles made it seem like it was up to a FMCB decision, and was only being advocated for by the T & Sec. Pollack
 
This is probably the biggest news in the history of the transit agency. I've also read that it was contemplating replacing the entire GL fleet with new trolleys as well. If so, it is welcome news for the commuters who use it everyday! :cool:
 
Jahvon09 said:
This is probably the biggest news in the history of the transit agency. I've also read that it was contemplating replacing the entire GL fleet with new trolleys as well. If so, it is welcome news for the commuters who use it everyday! :cool:
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Flat-out cheaper. When the Bombardier 01800's were first delivered in 1994, their AC traction motors were still newish technology. The big flip from DC to AC propulsion across the transit universe--everything including light rail, trolleybuses, heavy rail, and RR locomotives and EMU's--started happening in earnest mid-90's right after they went in-service. Now DC is extinct on all brand new rmakes except for some new freight locomotives. But despite the Red cars being about the most generic type of metro stock on the planet and everything now using AC traction, any major first-generation technology is going to be inherently harder to service than second-, third-, etc. generations that got perfected and further generified. So while the 01800's are very good cars that pretty much formed the template for much of what came after it...first-gen just doesn't have as high a ceiling for lifespan extension in an overhaul.

With the scale of the CRRC order already being in the hundreds and bringing unit price as low as it can go, it became a no-brainer to work that low price point for nth-generation components that'll go 25+ years before rebuild and still have a parts supply...vs. 10+ years before the first-gen parts supply starts to tap out. This despite the fact that the 01800's could at every practical technical level feasibly go the distance in a rebuild if they really wanted to. Sometimes practicality at the technical level just isn't an ideal match for the financial long game...and this is one of those times.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Flat-out cheaper. When the Bombardier 01800's were first delivered in 1994, their AC traction motors were still newish technology. The big flip from DC to AC propulsion across the transit universe--everything including light rail, trolleybuses, heavy rail, and RR locomotives and EMU's--started happening in earnest mid-90's right after they went in-service. Now DC is extinct on all brand new rmakes except for some new freight locomotives. But despite the Red cars being about the most generic type of metro stock on the planet and everything now using AC traction, any major first-generation technology is going to be inherently harder to service than second-, third-, etc. generations that got perfected and further generified. So while the 01800's are very good cars that pretty much formed the template for much of what came after it...first-gen just doesn't have as high a ceiling for lifespan extension in an overhaul.

With the scale of the CRRC order already being in the hundreds and bringing unit price as low as it can go, it became a no-brainer to work that low price point for nth-generation components that'll go 25+ years before rebuild and still have a parts supply...vs. 10+ years before the first-gen parts supply starts to tap out. This despite the fact that the 01800's could at every practical technical level feasibly go the distance in a rebuild if they really wanted to. Sometimes practicality at the technical level just isn't an ideal match for the financial long game...and this is one of those times.
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It is also a huge win to get the entire rolling stock of the line over to a common car. And to share major spare components with the Orange Line as well. Assuming the CRRC cars are reasonably trouble free, this is a huge maintenance cost win.
 
F-Line to Dudley said:
Flat-out cheaper. When the Bombardier 01800's were first delivered in 1994, their AC traction motors were still newish technology. The big flip from DC to AC propulsion across the transit universe--everything including light rail, trolleybuses, heavy rail, and RR locomotives and EMU's--started happening in earnest mid-90's right after they went in-service. Now DC is extinct on all brand new rmakes except for some new freight locomotives. But despite the Red cars being about the most generic type of metro stock on the planet and everything now using AC traction, any major first-generation technology is going to be inherently harder to service than second-, third-, etc. generations that got perfected and further generified. So while the 01800's are very good cars that pretty much formed the template for much of what came after it...first-gen just doesn't have as high a ceiling for lifespan extension in an overhaul.

With the scale of the CRRC order already being in the hundreds and bringing unit price as low as it can go, it became a no-brainer to work that low price point for nth-generation components that'll go 25+ years before rebuild and still have a parts supply...vs. 10+ years before the first-gen parts supply starts to tap out. This despite the fact that the 01800's could at every practical technical level feasibly go the distance in a rebuild if they really wanted to. Sometimes practicality at the technical level just isn't an ideal match for the financial long game...and this is one of those times.
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Does this also mean that the voltage power would be changed for the third rail, or would it stay the same? The WMATA's third rails use about 700 volts to power their subway trains.

Looks like business is picking up drastically at the plant in Springfield! Not only has the MBTA increased its order & plans to retire the entire existing fleet of RL cars, but in addition to Chicago, now LA wants in on the act. Who is next, I wonder?

This could keep the plant in business for many , many years to come! And jobs active for equally as long. :cool:
 
So what's going to happen to the old 01800's? Will they just be scrapped, or will there be some resale value for them? Keep a couple for work vehicles?
 
Probably a set or two for work vehicles, and hopefully a pair will go to Seashore. A few sets may stick around for backup equipment, as was done on the Blue Line. While they're in better condition than the earlier cars, they will still be 29 years old upon replacement (a normal life for equipment, especially in Boston's harsh salty weather), and an expensive rebuild needed for further service anywhere. It's very unlikely that there's any resale value anywhere.
 
The EGE said:
Probably a set or two for work vehicles, and hopefully a pair will go to Seashore. A few sets may stick around for backup equipment, as was done on the Blue Line. While they're in better condition than the earlier cars, they will still be 29 years old upon replacement (a normal life for equipment, especially in Boston's harsh salty weather), and an expensive rebuild needed for further service anywhere. It's very unlikely that there's any resale value anywhere.
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Because of the stainless-steel content, they will have a higher scrap value than the #1 Red, #2 Red, and Orange Line cars. Unless there is a change in policy, they won't keep any for work cars. It was decided a few years ago that its not worth retaining retired work cars as motive power to push a flat car. The small added wear and tear on the revenue fleet from occasionaly using a train to push a flat car is cheaper than keeping parts stocked and having to train new maintenance staff on keeping obsolete equipment operable. It is also unlikely that any will be retained as spares. By the time the #3 cars are due to be withdrawn, they will be 6 years into production of the CRRC cars and any major issues with the new cars will either be resolved or have resulted in a delay in deliveries. They will also be tight for storage space, as a 218 car fleet (including 8 stored cars) will be replaced by a 252 car (266 if 14 car option is picked up) active fleet. There is space to park more train sets at Codman Yard (Ashmont), but they will need to fully use that space to accomodate the fleet increase.
 
Jahvon09 said:
Does this also mean that the voltage power would be changed for the third rail, or would it stay the same? The WMATA's third rails use about 700 volts to power their subway trains.

Looks like business is picking up drastically at the plant in Springfield! Not only has the MBTA increased its order & plans to retire the entire existing fleet of RL cars, but in addition to Chicago, now LA wants in on the act. Who is next, I wonder?

This could keep the plant in business for many , many years to come! And jobs active for equally as long. :cool:
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No. AC traction doesn't have anything to do with the type of source power. Various components in the cars--any railcars or trolleybuses, on any mode, anywhere in the world--use different voltages for different components that need to be sliced/diced in the transformers. Including plain old diesel locomotives, because all the engine is is a big portable electric generator supplying power to the all-electric components throughout the train. Even on AC systems like the NEC's 12.5 kV and 25 kV AC feeders...the locomotive or EMU's do a lot of different power conversions.

The traction motors have just one (very important) job: spin each wheel. AC motors have a big, big advantage over DC in being easier to maintain with many fewer parts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_motor. It took until the early-90's for solid-state semiconductors to give AC motors equal power as traditional DC, but once they hit that performance threshold the orders-of-magnitude simpler maintenance over DC caused everyone to change over to AC overnight. You can tell instantly if a car is AC traction by that distinctive whining sound the train makes. Type 8's, the Red 01800's, the Blue 0700's, the newer trackless trolleys, and (if you listen really carefully over the roar of the engine) the commuter rail MP36's and HSP-46's make that distinctive whine at their motors. The DC motors of the Type 7's (all of them...the 3600's from '86, the 3700's from '97, and the rebuilds), the PCC's, Orange cars, Red 015/016/01700's, and the F40 and GP40 locomotives don't. On Amtrak the Sprinters, the new Charger diesels, the Acela, and dual-mode Genesis P32 locomotive (which has same exact GE motor model as our new HSP-46's) are AC traction. All of the pure diesel P40 & P42 Geneses + other misc. locos are still DC, but will be replaced soon by AC.

DC source power is still way better overall for running a subway system that has dense service. Very few tram or metro systems worldwide...including those under construction and every one potentially under-construction...bother with AC at all. DC is here to stay for that application, and the only thing that's at all legacy about the T's power source is using a lower 600V rating (like NYC Subway) typical of a lot of older systems; newer systems worldwide mostly settle on 750V DC, with 1.5 kV being the more-or-less #2 choice. Mainline rail works a lot better on AC because the substations can be spaced a lot further apart and thus it achieves a big cost advantage over DC at the longer distances passenger RR's (commuter or intercity) go vs. a rapid transit system that sticks closer to a major city and its suburbs. The 25kV AC that the NEC uses north of New Haven is pretty much the default world standard.
 
The EGE said:
Probably a set or two for work vehicles, and hopefully a pair will go to Seashore. A few sets may stick around for backup equipment, as was done on the Blue Line. While they're in better condition than the earlier cars, they will still be 29 years old upon replacement (a normal life for equipment, especially in Boston's harsh salty weather), and an expensive rebuild needed for further service anywhere. It's very unlikely that there's any resale value anywhere.
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Seashore definitely gets a pair; that's S.O.P. for any non- commuter rail vehicle retirements here, including the trackless trolleys. The only real dilemma is which of the older Red cars they're going to take, since they don't have enough space to take an 01500 pair, an 016, and an 017 all at the same time. Probably won't be an 017 because those are remakes of much lesser historical value...but whether it's a 15 or 16 probably depends on which of their differing sets of motors Seashore has more of in its collection so they're easier to service.
 
Seashore has just about every old 2-car set form the rapid transit lines of the T, including some of the old buses. I've visited them twice.
 
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