New Red and Orange Line Cars

2 days in a row with multiple OL breakdowns. No wonder why people are being impatient. The current orange trains are on their last legs, and should have been replaced years ago.
 
tysmith95 said:
2 days in a row with multiple OL breakdowns. No wonder why people are being impatient. The current orange trains are on their last legs, and should have been replaced years ago.
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Every one of those people complaining need only look in mirror to find someone to blame. WE didn't keep this system in shape, and now WE are paying the price for it.
 
Equilibria said:
Every one of those people complaining need only look in mirror to find someone to blame. WE didn't keep this system in shape, and now WE are paying the price for it.
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I have been arguing this point on Facebook for two days now.

No MA elected official, legislator or executive branch, has ever lost their job for neglecting the T. We, as voting citizens in the Commonwealth, simply do not care enough about transit. So we get the transit system we deserve, one that is totally neglected.
 
Did the T ever consider an open-gangway design for the RL and the OL? Articulated subway trains seem to have gained traction in Paris, Berlin, and Tronno.
 
Norval Elliot said:
Did the T ever consider an open-gangway design for the RL and the OL? Articulated subway trains seem to have gained traction in Paris, Berlin, and Tronno.
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I believe the idea was rejected as it would prevent swapping out cars requiring unscheduled maintenance. A problematic car in Boston can simply be closed to passengers, then removed and replaced at the yard, whereas a problematic car in an articulated open gangway train requires that the entire train be removed from service.
 
HenryAlan said:
I believe the idea was rejected as it would prevent swapping out cars requiring unscheduled maintenance. A problematic car in Boston can simply be closed to passengers, then removed and replaced at the yard, whereas a problematic car in an articulated open gangway train requires that the entire train be removed from service.
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Not necessarily; some open gangways have designs more amenable to swapping than others. But the support costs for adoption are definitely nonzero, so the decision to adopt is a lot more complex behind the scenes than "just buy awesomer new this instead of boring old that, and magic".

With the T it's simply a matter that open gangways aren't anywhere near the top for most consequential load-reliever for the money, so it's more of a nice-to-have than necessity which makes the up-front adoption costs less palatable. With NYC the overloading is so bad that open cars would make a pound-for-pound bigger difference unto themselves and the MTA arguably is dragging its feet on them. We're not anywhere near that level yet. We're misssing other build stuff much more urgently.
 
Transit Geeks, did you catch this brief mention yesterday about the possible cause of the "unusual noise" in the new Orange Line cars:

"On Wednesday, the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority offered details about the problem: A 5-by-13-inch pad between the upper and lower parts of the subway cars — the truck, or undercarriage, which includes the wheels, and the body, which carries passengers — was “wearing irregularly,” general manager Steve Poftak said. "

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...face-delays/fIyiPowmIEpgm6fQ8aOw0N/story.html

I am no expert, but this sounds like it could be a fairly serious design flaw (and would likely affect both Orange and Red Line cars). It is likely very good this was caught early (article also suggests this could be a premature failure mode for cars). Anyone have any real insight?
 
JeffDowntown said:
Transit Geeks, did you catch this brief mention yesterday about the possible cause of the "unusual noise" in the new Orange Line cars:

"On Wednesday, the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority offered details about the problem: A 5-by-13-inch pad between the upper and lower parts of the subway cars — the truck, or undercarriage, which includes the wheels, and the body, which carries passengers — was “wearing irregularly,” general manager Steve Poftak said. "

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...face-delays/fIyiPowmIEpgm6fQ8aOw0N/story.html

I am no expert, but this sounds like it could be a fairly serious design flaw (and would likely affect both Orange and Red Line cars). It is likely very good this was caught early (article also suggests this could be a premature failure mode for cars). Anyone have any real insight?
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See my post #1882 above for the full interview, Poftak didn't sound overly concerned about it at the moment, said he thinks there's an fix that can be designed for it...
 
Anyone else very annoyed that the top maps above the doors aren't at least LED (if not full on LCDs)? Probably bothers me more than it should, but, it just seems cheap and out of date vs any other system at this point. I also would say I think I have come to terms with the fisher-pricey interiors after being in Tokyo's subway again a few months ago - it actually felt about the same, (sans the wall to wall cover every square inch in ads, of course).
 
bakgwailo said:
Anyone else very annoyed that the top maps above the doors aren't at least LED (if not full on LCDs)? Probably bothers me more than it should, but, it just seems cheap and out of date vs any other system at this point. I also would say I think I have come to terms with the fisher-pricey interiors after being in Tokyo's subway again a few months ago - it actually felt about the same, (sans the wall to wall cover every square inch in ads, of course).
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I have to agree that the maps over the doors look cheap, dated. I was really surprised we didn't get interactive line maps like the MTA uses.
 
Unintended consequences of modern technology -- the more tech that is introduced the much greater potential for unintended consequential behavior

For example -- 2001 Honda Civic -- you could tell by looking that a tire was low -- but unless you carried around a pocket gauge or habituated gas stations with air pumps with good gauges you were just guessing

Honda as one of the leaders in the automotive tech space decides to introduce electronic tire pressure monitoring -- circa 2008
A single indicator pops up on the dash indicating that one of the tires is below a somewhat squishy spec for pressure

That of course is nice to tell you that you have a tire somewhat low -- doesn't tell you which tire or how much -- but if you get used to the phenomena and when it happens such as when a cold front comes through and drops the temperature substantially you can derive operationally useful information

Unintended consequence -- the tire sensors provide a new source for air to leak from the tires and some of them do significantly
So now you get a message that at least one of your tires is low in pressure -- and it could be due to the leak at the sensor -- you can't ignore it because its not a case of the sensor giving erroneous readings -- its and actual low pressure condition. If you don't think this is a realistic example -- ask my wife who has been fighting with our Honda Dealer for several years because of leaking sensors.

Honda's Solution -- remove the sensors and disable the pressure monitoring indicator [possible on my wife's 2013 Civic because its all software but not worth bothering with my older and more hardware and wiring intensive model]

I'm sure that the new Orange and Red Line equipment is much more software intensive and so prone to more unintended behaviors
 
JeffDowntown said:
I have to agree that the maps over the doors look cheap, dated. I was really surprised we didn't get interactive line maps like the MTA uses.
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Agreed. It's embarassing. MTA has had these for years and they're super helpful.
 
cjbski said:
Agreed. It's embarassing. MTA has had these for years and they're super helpful.
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These were an option in the original contract that the MBTA tested and chose not to take, the LCD panels were also an option which they obviously exercised. Don't know why though.
 
cjbski said:
Agreed. It's embarassing. MTA has had these for years and they're super helpful.
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Because the NYC Subway system is far more extensive and confusing than that of the MBTA, tourists rely on the MTA's electronic maps to avoid getting lost. (Denizens know where they're going.) With its straightforward, color coded lines, why shouldn't a simple, albeit cheap-looking, map suffice for Boston?
 
Norval Elliot said:
Because the NYC Subway system is far more extensive and confusing than that of the MBTA, tourists rely on the MTA's electronic maps to avoid getting lost. (Denizens know where they're going.) With its straightforward, color coded lines, why shouldn't a simple, albeit cheap-looking, map suffice for Boston?
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Because even on the T, the line status is not static.
Bustitution can be shown.
Non-functional elevators (handicap access not available) can be shown.
Transfers not available can be shown (the T never closes a line).
Trains running express can be shown (rare, but it happens).

It's really about providing real information in a concise way, rather than a static "everything hunky dory" view, which it never is.
 
JeffDowntown said:
Because even on the T, the line status is not static.
Bustitution can be shown.
Non-functional elevators (handicap access not available) can be shown.
Transfers not available can be shown (the T never closes a line).
Trains running express can be shown (rare, but it happens).

It's really about providing real information in a concise way, rather than a static "everything hunky dory" view, which it never is.
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That's why there's a public-address system. The situations you describe would require technology far more elaborate (and costly) than the MTA's onboard electronic maps. When, say, an F train makes an unscheduled express run under Prospect Park, the onboard map reflects the change (if at all) only after the train has been rerouted—well after the numerous announcements over the PA system.
 
Norval Elliot said:
That's why there's a public-address system. The situations you describe would require technology far more elaborate (and costly) than the MTA's onboard electronic maps. When, say, an F train makes an unscheduled express run under Prospect Park, the onboard map reflects the change (if at all) only after the train has been rerouted—well after the numerous announcements over the PA system.
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Simply not true.

No handicap access - don't show the wheelchair symbol (like on the MTA)
Express Routing -- stops disappear from the list (like on the MTA)
Bustitution -- show line terminating at a different station (like on the MTA)
Transfers not available -- transfer symbols disappear (I think the MTA does this, perhaps not)

The map is there throughout the ride for reference. Announcements only happen briefly (unintelligibly on the T) and T messaging is notoriously obtuse.

There is simply much more information density possible on an interactive route map.
 
JeffDowntown said:
Simply not true.

No handicap access - don't show the wheelchair symbol (like on the MTA)
Express Routing -- stops disappear from the list (like on the MTA)
Bustitution -- show line terminating at a different station (like on the MTA)
Transfers not available -- transfer symbols disappear (I think the MTA does this, perhaps not)

The map is there throughout the ride for reference. Announcements only happen briefly (unintelligibly on the T) and T messaging is notoriously obtuse.

There is simply much more information density possible on an interactive route map.
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What's not true? Bustitutions in New York are typically posted using old-fashioned bills. Furthermore, a wheelchair icon does not disappear when an elevator is out of service. Except for displaying the train's progress (and the remaining stations), onboard MTA maps are not updated in real-time.
 
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