New Red and Orange Line Cars

Waiting for the Orange Line these days be like.
 

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Just read online that one of the new OL trains was taken out of service just one day after the Orange Line reopened because of malfunctioning doors!! They kept on opening & closing for seemingly no reason. The affected passengers were told to get off & wait for the next train, which by that time, the next train was super packed & crowded to the hilt! Some new service for a line which just had a major redo!!! :unsure: :eek::eek:



 
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bakgwailo said:
Seems like quite a few door issues on the new OL cars since reopening.
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Hopefully, they'll get them all fixed. These are all brand new trains & they are NOT supposed to be acting up the way that they've been doing!! :mad: :eek:
 
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Honestly, I feel alarmed. We're halfway through the order now and we got a breakdown after only a day. After all that testing and they made a pretty big show repeatedly checking up on the trains. Is this still in the realm of teething issues or is it reasonable to start speculating this as a preview for things to come?

I know the average Uhub, r/Boston, and IRL riders already assumes the latter. But I'm still trying to operate on transit and manufacturing history. So I want to know if are broaching past developments (I wouldn't say we have reached Breda Type 8s so far - but I am saying how does this keep happening?)
 
bakgwailo said:
Seems like quite a few door issues on the new OL cars since reopening.
Click to expand...

Speaking of door issues… some folks on Reddit had an open air ride to DTX today.

Door issue aside, I’m more confused as to how they’re looking from the inside of a passenger cabin straight into the cab of another car. I would have assumed they should have been looking into the passenger cabin?


48E99388-9169-4099-9DA9-A7A19584355F.jpeg
 
isn;t that the ab<>bb-ab<>bb-bb<>ba married pairs? (a is cab, b is no cab end)
 
ant8904 said:
Honestly, I feel alarmed. We're halfway through the order now and we got a breakdown after only a day. After all that testing and they made a pretty big show repeatedly checking up on the trains. Is this still in the realm of teething issues or is it reasonable to start speculating this as a preview for things to come?

I know the average Uhub, r/Boston, and IRL riders already assumes the latter. But I'm still trying to operate on transit and manufacturing history. So I want to know if are broaching past developments (I wouldn't say we have reached Breda Type 8s so far - but I am saying how does this keep happening?)
Click to expand...

Not even close to Breda (or Boeing) territory. (Man the Green Line's had some lemons.) They had to cannibalize brand-new Boeings to keep some of the others running (and reportedly towed some of the cannibalized ones into the tunnels at night to try and hide that fact), and the Type 8s were repeatedly pulled from service (on all or parts of the Green Line) after multiple derailments, including an over-eight-year span when they were banned from the Riverside Line.

That said, I do wonder if there are any statistics available out there regarding the CRRC cars' issues compared to other new T equipment and other new equipment elsewhere. It's also that these cars are both the first series delivered (to the T) in the social media era when we can get frequent, well-publicized, reports of issues, coming at a time when service is particularly in the news given the shutdown, the FTA-triggered service cuts, and the T's general increasing decrepitude. It's also entirely plausible that the rate of problems is actually higher than for other equipment here and elsewhere (which would be deeply bad news), but without proper comparative statistics it's difficult to make a judgment on which explanation is best-supported.

As for how this keeps happening, well, their practice of buying from untested (at least in the US) manufacturers probably doesn't help, but it's extremely common for issues with new equipment to crop up, including component failures and design flaws. I recall the Rotem bi-levels on the Commuter Rail, when new, had a (since-resolved) problem with the mechanisms that kept their vestibule doors open, leading to them frequently closing when they shouldn't. (Which is particularly jarring when said door attempts to close, for instance, between a person and their backpack...) The two biggest lemons in MBTA subway equipment history (the Boeings and the Bredas) were both the result of multiple bad decisions. The Boeings were an idiotic federal-forced compromise between MUNI's needs and the MBTAs, saddling us with the astonishingly-complex and failure-prone sliding doors that caused a lot of problems, built by a helicopter manufacturer too cheap to license proven designs for some elements, while the Bredas involved the T asking a company that had made some decent HRT equipment in the US to build LRVs instead (their offering for MUNI was less derailment-happy as I understand but still underwhelming), and to make them low-floor on a very tight system with basically a new center truck design (and possibly involving inaccurate wheel profiles). The CRRC cars, by contrast, are a much-more-standard HRT offering; it's entirely possible that they're buggier than others, it's possible they're not, but it's unlikely that they're fundamentally flawed in a seriously-problematic way like the Bredas or (shudders) the Boeings.

Texasian said:
Door issue aside, I’m more confused as to how they’re looking from the inside of a passenger cabin straight into the cab of another car. I would have assumed they should have been looking into the passenger cabin?
Click to expand...
bakgwailo said:
isn;t that the ab<>bb-ab<>bb-bb<>ba married pairs? (a is cab, b is no cab end)
Click to expand...

bakgwailo is correct, with the OL's six-car trains there will always be a B-car ("bb", no cab at either end) adjacent to the cab end of an A-car somewhere mid-train. The first and sixth cars will always have cabs, the second and fifth will never have cabs, and one of the third and fourth will have a cab. (The only way this wouldn't be the case is if a B-car was at one end of the train, which would make turning around at Forest Hills/Oak Grove...impossible.)
 
The T has made some pretty bad purchases of equipment over the years, but hopefully, this new purchase of the Type 10 supercars from CAF will & should be a good one. Ever wonder now, why they are so urgently replacing the old tracks on the Green Line now, instead of waiting until the new trains arrive, like with the Orange Line? Lesson learned; Get the line(s) repaired & overhauled before using new equipment on it!!!! Hah!! :unsure: :eek:
 
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For some perspective from non-MBTA experiences the R32s in NYC were supposed to be fully retired in 2017 and ended up running in service until the end of 2021 because issues with the R179 car order. The R179 order had many issues including a prototype with such large design flaws the whole order got delayed by two years and even once the delivery of vehicles started multiple issues were found (wiki article about the issues). The R160 order had some manufacturing delays but did not have major design flaws show up in testing. So far the R211 order has had delays because of Covid-19 and they found a cracked HVAC frame on the test train that had to be fixed. Time will tell if the R211 will turn out more like the R160 order with only minor issues and delivery delays or the R179 order with a lot more issues.

I would say the T has a normal amount of issues for an American transit operator. IDK if the issues are due to procurement process in NYC and Boston or if this is the norm worldwide.
 
On a more general note I think it would be good if Boston for the next order switched from married pairs to either 3 or 6 car consists that have an open gangway design. Ideally they would upgrade maintenance facilities to be able to handle a full length six car open gangway design but at minimum at least being able to handle 2 car or 3 car sets would be an slight improvement.
 
Brattle Loop said:
That said, I do wonder if there are any statistics available out there regarding the CRRC cars' issues compared to other new T equipment and other new equipment elsewhere. It's also that these cars are both the first series delivered (to the T) in the social media era when we can get frequent, well-publicized, reports of issues, coming at a time when service is particularly in the news given the shutdown, the FTA-triggered service cuts, and the T's general increasing decrepitude. It's also entirely plausible that the rate of problems is actually higher than for other equipment here and elsewhere (which would be deeply bad news), but without proper comparative statistics it's difficult to make a judgment on which explanation is best-supported.

As for how this keeps happening, well, their practice of buying from untested (at least in the US) manufacturers probably doesn't help, but it's extremely common for issues with new equipment to crop up, including component failures and design flaws. I recall the Rotem bi-levels on the Commuter Rail, when new, had a (since-resolved) problem with the mechanisms that kept their vestibule doors open, leading to them frequently closing when they shouldn't. (Which is particularly jarring when said door attempts to close, for instance, between a person and their backpack...) The two biggest lemons in MBTA subway equipment history (the Boeings and the Bredas) were both the result of multiple bad decisions. The Boeings were an idiotic federal-forced compromise between MUNI's needs and the MBTAs, saddling us with the astonishingly-complex and failure-prone sliding doors that caused a lot of problems, built by a helicopter manufacturer too cheap to license proven designs for some elements, while the Bredas involved the T asking a company that had made some decent HRT equipment in the US to build LRVs instead (their offering for MUNI was less derailment-happy as I understand but still underwhelming), and to make them low-floor on a very tight system with basically a new center truck design (and possibly involving inaccurate wheel profiles). The CRRC cars, by contrast, are a much-more-standard HRT offering; it's entirely possible that they're buggier than others, it's possible they're not, but it's unlikely that they're fundamentally flawed in a seriously-problematic way like the Bredas or (shudders) the Boeings.
Click to expand...

I am not the person who know the statistics to compare CRRC cars versus other T equipment or other transit systems. I am aware of the Recommendation presentation where the slides does tell me the MBTA did try to assess past history (also a more technical version too). Which is now retrospectively complicated because CRRC is the company post-merge of the selected company CNR and outright explicitly rejected (not unselected, rejected) company CSR. CNR was evaluated very positively citing past successful work around various metros. Meanwhile CSR was explicitly rejected where page 8 (of both the presentation slides and staff summary report) showing why with CSR rated as unacceptable for Technical, Manufacturing, and Overall.

...Only for a year later post-selection of CNR we'll see CNR and CSR merged to become CRRC.

I think we've all been hoping the CNR-side dominates the culture more than CSR-post merger.

Also this made look up the Blue Line. I guess 2006-2008 is now a long time ago now. But it is recent enough to had its own thread at least during the delivery phase of the Siemens Blue Line trains.

New Blue line cars.

If I lived on the Green Line, I'd take the Blue Line to the airport. Since I live on the Red Line, I take the Silver Line.
archboston.com

The chatter was not that much. Maybe it's just reflect Archboston was smaller, but looking at the chatter back then, it seems like it was just very uneventful. It arrived, we posted how the it was getting tested, and then a few complaints that it didn't look more futuristic and some cheer the rust buckets were gone. But no posts about issues found during the testing phase or breakdowns after deployment. I do read the manufacturing itself was bumpy, but once arrived, it was uneventful.

----

But all of that said, my question "why this keeps happening" isn't just asking about MBTA's level of luck with procuring new equipment, it's more about why the CRRC trains themselves keep running into these hiccups despite all the testing and effort. Maybe this is just normal and we're just being hyper-alert in the age of social media and after so many back-to-back events. But I lack the knowledge to truly examine it.
 
ant8904 said:
I am not the person who know the statistics to compare CRRC cars versus other T equipment or other transit systems. I am aware of the Recommendation presentation where the slides does tell me the MBTA did try to assess past history (also a more technical version too). Which is now retrospectively complicated because CRRC is the company post-merge of the selected company CNR and outright explicitly rejected (not unselected, rejected) company CSR. CNR was evaluated very positively citing past successful work around various metros. Meanwhile CSR was explicitly rejected where page 8 (of both the presentation slides and staff summary report) showing why with CSR rated as unacceptable for Technical, Manufacturing, and Overall.

...Only for a year later post-selection of CNR we'll see CNR and CSR merged to become CRRC.

I think we've all been hoping the CNR-side dominates the culture more than CSR-post merger.

Also this made look up the Blue Line. I guess 2006-2008 is now a long time ago now. But it is recent enough to had its own thread at least during the delivery phase of the Siemens Blue Line trains.

New Blue line cars.

If I lived on the Green Line, I'd take the Blue Line to the airport. Since I live on the Red Line, I take the Silver Line.
archboston.com

The chatter was not that much. Maybe it's just reflect Archboston was smaller, but looking at the chatter back then, it seems like it was just very uneventful. It arrived, we posted how the it was getting tested, and then a few complaints that it didn't look more futuristic and some cheer the rust buckets were gone. But no posts about issues found during the testing phase or breakdowns after deployment. I do read the manufacturing itself was bumpy, but once arrived, it was uneventful.

----

But all of that said, my question "why this keeps happening" isn't just asking about MBTA's level of luck with procuring new equipment, it's more about why the CRRC trains themselves keep running into these hiccups despite all the testing and effort. Maybe this is just normal and we're just being hyper-alert in the age of social media and after so many back-to-back events. But I lack the knowledge to truly examine it.
Click to expand...

I take it that the inside of the new Type 10's might look somewhat like THIS? But they won't have the luxuriously soft seats, that's for sure!! :unsure:
inside of articulated train..jpg
 
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One Twitter subscriber said if there's a problem, all the new trains will be taken out of service again. Not so. They'll have to just concentrate on fixing that one train, or else there'll be massive delays again!!! But in all probability, I'm never so tired to see those things go!!! They are a definite eyesore & an embarrasment to the Orange Line!! They've long since worn out their welcome & it's time to bid farewell to them! 😱
 
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ant8904 said:
The chatter was not that much. Maybe it's just reflect Archboston was smaller, but looking at the chatter back then, it seems like it was just very uneventful. It arrived, we posted how the it was getting tested, and then a few complaints that it didn't look more futuristic and some cheer the rust buckets were gone. But no posts about issues found during the testing phase or breakdowns after deployment. I do read the manufacturing itself was bumpy, but once arrived, it was uneventful.
Click to expand...

To be fair, this thread is completely insane about 50% of the time and it takes a *strong* mental filter to process actual news bits around all the histrionic ranting. There's nothing remotely "normal" about it. Anywhere. With any transit system. I remember the Type 8 threads on RR.net in the mid-2000's...those were full of bile at all the myraid problems with those vehicles. They still don't hold a candle to these 141 pages right here. I would say at this point that the rollout has been decidedly subpar, but no way is it as exceptionally dire as gets beaten into our heads everytime this thread blows up.

--> :eek: <--
 
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