New Red and Orange Line Cars

[nbcoram]

The MBTA has 14 new Orange Line train sets it lists as “active service” but they’ve only ever had 10 on route at once. Is this because of the operator/dispatcher shortage or just service cuts for budgeting reasons?

That page hasn't been updated in a while.

Barring some insane miracle, I don't see any way the Orange Line order is done this year and neither does anyone else.

Presumably, they meant up to 14 new train cars whenever this was last updated (out of 18 train cars/3 sets at that time). It doesn't even make sense since they can't ever have only 14 cars out because each set has 6 train cars.

They are up to 82 cars delivered, which is enough for 13 sets plus 4 additional cars. However, 4 of those cars are not yet accepted for passenger service (1478 through 1481, which have been seen out in the wild testing this week), and an additional 2 cars (1400 and 1401) have been out of service for 2 years due to derailment damage sustained in March of 2021. 1400 and 1401 are just sitting in Wellington Yard, possibly awaiting repair at the end of the contract.

So, the reason you aren't seeing 14 sets is because they do not physically have 14 sets of new trains. I believe they also are only approved to run 13 sets at the maximum right now due to the dispatcher shortage; they had originally planned to run some old trains during peak hours at the beginning of the winter schedule to help meet this but that plan was scrapped or at least put on hold. That leaves them with 12 sets plus 4 spare cars in active (of new trains); they try to have 2 spare sets in the yard at any given time, which brings them down to up to 10 sets on the tracks (which was the original peak-hour limit when the dispatching issues first began). In a few rare instances, 11 sets have been in revenue service at once for brief amounts of time but typically one set will go out of service at Wellington shortly thereafter.

 

[Tallguy]

First time riding a new Red Line train yesterday - and to my surprise, I caught it twice in the same day!
View attachment 35436
View attachment 35437
View attachment 35438
View attachment 35439
View attachment 35440
View attachment 35441
View attachment 35442

Probably the same run

 

[Jahvon09]

Probably the same run

I just happened about a month ago, to have just arrived onto the inbound Red Line platform, when the new train was about to arrive. I only went 2 stops to South Station, so I really didn't get to ride it like I wanted to.

 

[Koopzilla24]

That page hasn't been updated in a while.
View attachment 35663
Barring some insane miracle, I don't see any way the Orange Line order is done this year and neither does anyone else.

Presumably, they meant up to 14 new train cars whenever this was last updated (out of 18 train cars/3 sets at that time). It doesn't even make sense since they can't ever have only 14 cars out because each set has 6 train cars.

They are up to 82 cars delivered, which is enough for 13 sets plus 4 additional cars. However, 4 of those cars are not yet accepted for passenger service (1478 through 1481, which have been seen out in the wild testing this week), and an additional 2 cars (1400 and 1401) have been out of service for 2 years due to derailment damage sustained in March of 2021. 1400 and 1401 are just sitting in Wellington Yard, possibly awaiting repair at the end of the contract.

So, the reason you aren't seeing 14 sets is because they do not physically have 14 sets of new trains. I believe they also are only approved to run 13 sets at the maximum right now due to the dispatcher shortage; they had originally planned to run some old trains during peak hours at the beginning of the winter schedule to help meet this but that plan was scrapped or at least put on hold. That leaves them with 12 sets plus 4 spare cars in active (of new trains); they try to have 2 spare sets in the yard at any given time, which brings them down to up to 10 sets on the tracks (which was the original peak-hour limit when the dispatching issues first began). In a few rare instances, 11 sets have been in revenue service at once for brief amounts of time but typically one set will go out of service at Wellington shortly thereafter.

I have the MBTA inventory site bookmarked and I don’t know why I didn’t check there. It basically states exactly this.

 

[nbcoram]

I have the MBTA inventory site bookmarked and I don’t know why I didn’t check there. It basically states exactly this.

All good. In your defense, it's easy to interpret "trains" as sets (6 cars), pairs (2 cars), or individual cars, and the T not updating their own website regarding the OL order is a bit embarrassing.

 

[king_vibe]

Deval Patrick and Charlie Baker should be shackled together in prison.

 

[Jahvon09]

All good. In your defense, it's easy to interpret "trains" as sets (6 cars), pairs (2 cars), or individual cars, and the T not updating their own website regarding the OL order is a bit embarrassing.

Who knew that back then? That the new cars were going to be like getting a big crate of lemons?!! Hah!!

 

[nbcoram]

There has finally been some more movement with the Orange Line fleet.

1478/79, which was delivered in February, has been accepted for revenue service. This brings the accepted and active CRRC fleet to 13 full sets (78 cars). They've generally been operating with a spare ratio of at least 2 spare sets so this should mean 11 sets will be running now regularly (as was the case for most of yesterday), as the line is approved for 13 sets at peak with the current dispatching situation. (Up till this point, they had been sitting at 12 sets + 4 spare cars for the last few months, and 12 sets + 2 spare cars between September and February, so to maintain a spare ratio of at least 2 spare sets they've only run up to 10 sets at a time, with a few limited exceptions such as an equipment move entering revenue service between yards.)

1480/81, another February delivery, is still in testing but I imagine it will be accepted soon. 1482/83 and 1484/85 have also been delivered and presumably have entered testing. Assuming a timeline for up to 2 months of acceptance testing, this should mean 14 full sets of CRRC cars will be active by sometime in June.

(As a reminder, 1400/01 have been out of service for two years due to derailment damage; I'd expect these to not be fixed until the end of the contract.)

Relatedly, the MBTA has retired the remaining 46 old Hawker Siddeley cars that have been listed as active but sitting at Wellington and Forest Hills for months (1260/61 had been marked as retired a few months ago but has not been sent to the scrapper yet, so they have 48 on property). This fate has been obvious for a while, as they have not run in service this year, and plans to run them in the winter schedule were scuttled at the last minute by the FTA.

Regardless, the remaining Hawkers being listed as OOS is a major milestone for the contract with CRRC, even if it doesn't necessarily speak to improvements at CRRC (with how long they've been atrophying, a Hawker run likely would have ended in some sort of breakdown; not running them ended any chance at running them).

The Red Line still has not had any new deliveries since 1910/11, which is still in testing. While CRRC and the MBTA are presently prioritizing the Orange Line for obvious reasons, it would be nice to see some movement on the red line. Accepting 1910/11 would allow them to get an extra set out in revenue service.

 

[Jahvon09]

There has finally been some more movement with the Orange Line fleet.

1478/79, which was delivered in February, has been accepted for revenue service. This brings the accepted and active CRRC fleet to 13 full sets (78 cars). They've generally been operating with a spare ratio of at least 2 spare sets so this should mean 11 sets will be running now regularly (as was the case for most of yesterday), as the line is approved for 13 sets at peak with the current dispatching situation. (Up till this point, they had been sitting at 12 sets + 4 spare cars for the last few months, and 12 sets + 2 spare cars between September and February, so to maintain a spare ratio of at least 2 spare sets they've only run up to 10 sets at a time, with a few limited exceptions such as an equipment move entering revenue service between yards.)

1480/81, another February delivery, is still in testing but I imagine it will be accepted soon. 1482/83 and 1484/85 have also been delivered and presumably have entered testing. Assuming a timeline for up to 2 months of acceptance testing, this should mean 14 full sets of CRRC cars will be active by sometime in June.

(As a reminder, 1400/01 have been out of service for two years due to derailment damage; I'd expect these to not be fixed until the end of the contract.)

Relatedly, the MBTA has retired the remaining 46 old Hawker Siddeley cars that have been listed as active but sitting at Wellington and Forest Hills for months (1260/61 had been marked as retired a few months ago but has not been sent to the scrapper yet, so they have 48 on property). This fate has been obvious for a while, as they have not run in service this year, and plans to run them in the winter schedule were scuttled at the last minute by the FTA.

Regardless, the remaining Hawkers being listed as OOS is a major milestone for the contract with CRRC, even if it doesn't necessarily speak to improvements at CRRC (with how long they've been atrophying, a Hawker run likely would have ended in some sort of breakdown; not running them ended any chance at running them).

The Red Line still has not had any new deliveries since 1910/11, which is still in testing. While CRRC and the MBTA are presently prioritizing the Orange Line for obvious reasons, it would be nice to see some movement on the red line. Accepting 1910/11 would allow them to get an extra set out in revenue service.

WOW!!

At least the old Hawkers should be hauled off the property soon, now that they've been deemed non-usable. But getting more of the new OL cars has long been overdue, & it's nice to hear that at least a few more of them have been delivered. But what about the old Hawkers that were parked near the back of some of the houses in Medford? Are those all gone yet?!!

 

[nbcoram]

But what about the old Hawkers that were parked near the back of some of the houses in Medford? Are those all gone yet?!!

Yes -- those were removed in the fall.

 

[Jahvon09]

Yes -- those were removed in the fall.

Good, thanks! Residents there have complained about them, saying that they not only were they an eyesore, but that they were attracting graffiti, rats & mice & gangs to hang out there in & to possibly drink, smoke & get drunk!! They had every right to complain. So, good ridden to bad rubbish!! Hah!!

 

[DominusNovus]

Its a long thread, so please forgive me if this has already been brought up: does the T have a contingency plan for if things hit the fan regarding US-China relations badly enough to mean the deal is pretty much dead?

 

[Jahvon09]

Its a long thread, so please forgive me if this has already been brought up: does the T have a contingency plan for if things hit the fan regarding US-China relations badly enough to mean the deal is pretty much dead?

I was told that the MBTA can't back out. That maybe, the time to do that was a long time ago, & that it has expired. So now, the T is going along with it, except that it is charging CRRC a $500 a day or month fee for each car that is delayed past the date that they were supposed to be delivered. However, CRRC is supposed to have worked out new dates for the new cars to be delivered. I don't know any more than that.

 

[bakgwailo]

Its a long thread, so please forgive me if this has already been brought up: does the T have a contingency plan for if things hit the fan regarding US-China relations badly enough to mean the deal is pretty much dead?

Short answer: No.

Long Answer: No, at least nothing public, and knowing the MBTA that mean.... nope.

 

[DominusNovus]

I was told that the MBTA can't back out. That maybe, the time to do that was a long time ago, & that it has expired. So now, the T is going along with it, except that it is charging CRRC a $500 a day or month fee for each car that is delayed past the date that they were supposed to be delivered. However, CRRC is supposed to have worked out new dates for the new cars to be delivered. I don't know any more than that.

I’m not talking about them backing out, I’m talking about the rest of the order being impossible to complete. The splashiest reason could be a mainland invasion of Taiwan, but any number of things could totally tank this.

 

[bakgwailo]

I’m not talking about them backing out, I’m talking about the rest of the order being impossible to complete. The splashiest reason could be a mainland invasion of Taiwan, but any number of things could totally tank this.

So I would contend that I don't see China v. Taiwan kicking off, but: at least all the shells have been delivered for the OL. I don't think honestly there is much there that the T can do to mitigate disaster, they are pretty much all in with the retirement of the remaining cars. The Red Line order, though? I do hope they are looking at possible mitigation there given that almost nothing has been delivered.

 

[Jahvon09]

I’m not talking about them backing out, I’m talking about the rest of the order being impossible to complete. The splashiest reason could be a mainland invasion of Taiwan, but any number of things could totally tank this.

I think that first, that it was the covid-19 pandemic, then it came to the plant in Springfield being short-staffed, then came an equipment supply shortage, then it seemed as though CRRC just didn't care & began making excuse after excuse after excuse as to why things got so backed up. Then the MBTA got so frustrated, saying that the backlog in the delivery of the new cars that it began to vent, saying that the seemingly negligence of CRRC is severely crippling the T because it relied on the order, saying that the problems are really crippling things concerning the attempt to retire decades-old equipment for the new cars. And so, the battle still remains as to just when the new orders should be full filled.

 

[DominusNovus]

So I would contend that I don't see China v. Taiwan kicking off, but: at least all the shells have been delivered for the OL. I don't think honestly there is much there that the T can do to mitigate disaster, they are pretty much all in with the retirement of the remaining cars. The Red Line order, though? I do hope they are looking at possible mitigation there given that almost nothing has been delivered.

Yeah, I used PRC vs Taiwan as the easy example, but I also agree its not likely (and that it’d screw up things so badly globally that our subway will be the least of our worries). Even just a ratcheting up of the trade war, or some shenanigans in the oil market that messes up China, could tank the deal.

 

[king_vibe]

I guess it wasn't a good idea for our huge yet intricate critical infrastructure to depend on a Rube Goldberg machine of a local job kickback scheme at an unproven ground up manufacturing facility with zero experience in conjunction with a rival and often hostile superpower on the other side of the world, in hindsight. And foresight, and regular sight.

 

[bigeman312]

There has finally been some more movement with the Orange Line fleet.

1478/79, which was delivered in February, has been accepted for revenue service. This brings the accepted and active CRRC fleet to 13 full sets (78 cars). They've generally been operating with a spare ratio of at least 2 spare sets so this should mean 11 sets will be running now regularly (as was the case for most of yesterday), as the line is approved for 13 sets at peak with the current dispatching situation. (Up till this point, they had been sitting at 12 sets + 4 spare cars for the last few months, and 12 sets + 2 spare cars between September and February, so to maintain a spare ratio of at least 2 spare sets they've only run up to 10 sets at a time, with a few limited exceptions such as an equipment move entering revenue service between yards.)

1480/81, another February delivery, is still in testing but I imagine it will be accepted soon. 1482/83 and 1484/85 have also been delivered and presumably have entered testing. Assuming a timeline for up to 2 months of acceptance testing, this should mean 14 full sets of CRRC cars will be active by sometime in June.

(As a reminder, 1400/01 have been out of service for two years due to derailment damage; I'd expect these to not be fixed until the end of the contract.)

Relatedly, the MBTA has retired the remaining 46 old Hawker Siddeley cars that have been listed as active but sitting at Wellington and Forest Hills for months (1260/61 had been marked as retired a few months ago but has not been sent to the scrapper yet, so they have 48 on property). This fate has been obvious for a while, as they have not run in service this year, and plans to run them in the winter schedule were scuttled at the last minute by the FTA.

Regardless, the remaining Hawkers being listed as OOS is a major milestone for the contract with CRRC, even if it doesn't necessarily speak to improvements at CRRC (with how long they've been atrophying, a Hawker run likely would have ended in some sort of breakdown; not running them ended any chance at running them).

The Red Line still has not had any new deliveries since 1910/11, which is still in testing. While CRRC and the MBTA are presently prioritizing the Orange Line for obvious reasons, it would be nice to see some movement on the red line. Accepting 1910/11 would allow them to get an extra set out in revenue service.

Thank you for the rundown. This is very informative.

This information raises the question: why haven’t headways improved? We allegedly are now able to run 11 trains on the Orange Line, instead of 10. We allegedly have the dispatchers to run 11 trains, instead of 10. Yet, we still have 11-13 minute headways, as we have since the slow zones were implemented last month. Why?