Oxford Ping On | Oxford Street | Chinatown
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Re: 12-story apartment highrise on Oxford Street.
My point exactly.
Narrow streets are places where children are not afraid to walk or play.
Japan seems to be king of building modern narrow streets:
Nothing special about those streets. Those are normal, run-of-the-mill Tokyo residential streets.
How about Europe:
That's a small sample of what narrow streets are supposed to look like. Not the South End:
This is a place for cars. Not people. Make sense?
To be fair, the South End does have a few narrow streets. Here's Taylor Street:
And this little gem:
But those are the exceptions.
My point exactly.
Narrow streets are places where children are not afraid to walk or play.
Japan seems to be king of building modern narrow streets:
Nothing special about those streets. Those are normal, run-of-the-mill Tokyo residential streets.
How about Europe:
That's a small sample of what narrow streets are supposed to look like. Not the South End:
This is a place for cars. Not people. Make sense?
To be fair, the South End does have a few narrow streets. Here's Taylor Street:
And this little gem:
But those are the exceptions.
Re: 12-story apartment highrise on Oxford Street.
You've picked a particularly wide street in the South End as an example and while "Europe" the entire continent with hundreds of cities certainly has more pedestrian only zones and truly narrow streets in their cities, most cities I've been to, with exception of truly Medieval cities like Brugges, have plenty of wide roads and those quaint, pedestrianized or very narrow roads are the exception, just like they are in Boston. I'm not arguing against your core principle here - I would like to see things head more in this direction - but this quibble of ours is about whether or not most side streets in the South End feel narrow and thus intimate (or intimate and thus narrow) when walking on them, and having spent a lot of time there, I disagree that most streets feel wide. I think most people who live there and who have visited there would agree. And I would add that just because there exists a single lane-wide street in Tokyo, that in no way means it's not utterly idiotic to let your toddler walk in the road in an urban area. I wouldn't let my kids play on city streets that are open to auto traffic in any city, anywhere, anytime. Until ALL cars are gone, that fact is not going to change.
You've picked a particularly wide street in the South End as an example and while "Europe" the entire continent with hundreds of cities certainly has more pedestrian only zones and truly narrow streets in their cities, most cities I've been to, with exception of truly Medieval cities like Brugges, have plenty of wide roads and those quaint, pedestrianized or very narrow roads are the exception, just like they are in Boston. I'm not arguing against your core principle here - I would like to see things head more in this direction - but this quibble of ours is about whether or not most side streets in the South End feel narrow and thus intimate (or intimate and thus narrow) when walking on them, and having spent a lot of time there, I disagree that most streets feel wide. I think most people who live there and who have visited there would agree. And I would add that just because there exists a single lane-wide street in Tokyo, that in no way means it's not utterly idiotic to let your toddler walk in the road in an urban area. I wouldn't let my kids play on city streets that are open to auto traffic in any city, anywhere, anytime. Until ALL cars are gone, that fact is not going to change.
citylover94
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Re: 12-story apartment highrise on Oxford Street.
When myself and probably most people think of the South End this is probably the type of street most people think of: http://goo.gl/zwwEmo
or this: http://goo.gl/WKfU85
When myself and probably most people think of the South End this is probably the type of street most people think of: http://goo.gl/zwwEmo
or this: http://goo.gl/WKfU85
Re: 12-story apartment highrise on Oxford Street.
Of course there are a wide variety of cities on these continents, and I cannot even begin to express that variety in a short forum post. Cities will have a mix of wide streets and narrow streets in different proportions, and we can have great debates about what the right proportion ought to be. And yes, architecture and design can work together to overcome the negative effects of width -- up to a point.
But there's really no way around the fact that the typical South End residential street is really too wide:
That's a whole lot of open pavement, surrounded by storage for automobiles. That's a race track, not a street for people.
Compare that to this narrow street:
Acorn Street, Beacon Hill.
(Fun note: it is said to be the most photographed street in all of Boston.)
Most of Tokyo's streets are small like this, not just one. It's easy to find them. Yes, Tokyo also has giant streets, elevated highways, and all sorts of craziness. A city can (and should) have both small streets and big streets. I think it's telling that Japanese parents don't mind letting their kids walk around on these small streets. Just because the street is in the city doesn't mean that it shouldn't be safe for kids. In fact, I would argue, streets in the city ought to be much safer than the ones in the countryside. We shouldn't have to banish cars completely (really, not desirable or possible) in order to have such safe streets.
Japan is also, quietly, one of the top bicycling countries in the world. For the same reason: it's pleasant and safe to be in most Japanese cities without a car.
I understand your fear of letting kids play on any street in the United States. I think it's unfortunate, and a sign of how far we've fallen. Within my lifetime, we've gone from letting most kids walk and bicycle to school (myself included), down to having almost no kids walk and bicycle to school. That's a travesty. The big advantage of growing up in a city like Boston should be the freedom to wander the streets. If you aren't allowed that, then what's the point of living in the city? If you're going to be trapped in your home anyway, may as well make it a large home out in the suburbs.
Sadly, I believe that many families have made that choice for exactly that reason. (on top of other issues, which I won't get into).
Upton Street is 3 lanes wide, making it slightly too wide to be considered a narrow street. Now, if it were treated better, perhaps it could function as one. But it is not treated well, it is just used for automobile storage for the most part. Not a place for people.
West Newton Street is typical of South End streets, and that's what I'm talking about. Like the street in my picture above, West Newton is 4 car-widths wide: that is not a narrow street. It also happens to be a main through-route, so perhaps it is appropriately sized. That's fine. We need some through-routes. But the problem is that most every other street around it is also similar in size to West Newton Street, even the ones that ought to be small residential streets. That's the problem I have with the South End.
Well, I'm entitled to my own opinion about the South End, and so is everyone else. But we need a common language. If streets like West Newton Street are labeled "narrow", then that label loses all meaning. What's the point of doing that to ourselves?
Of course there are a wide variety of cities on these continents, and I cannot even begin to express that variety in a short forum post. Cities will have a mix of wide streets and narrow streets in different proportions, and we can have great debates about what the right proportion ought to be. And yes, architecture and design can work together to overcome the negative effects of width -- up to a point.
But there's really no way around the fact that the typical South End residential street is really too wide:
That's a whole lot of open pavement, surrounded by storage for automobiles. That's a race track, not a street for people.
Compare that to this narrow street:
Acorn Street, Beacon Hill.
(Fun note: it is said to be the most photographed street in all of Boston.)
Most of Tokyo's streets are small like this, not just one. It's easy to find them. Yes, Tokyo also has giant streets, elevated highways, and all sorts of craziness. A city can (and should) have both small streets and big streets. I think it's telling that Japanese parents don't mind letting their kids walk around on these small streets. Just because the street is in the city doesn't mean that it shouldn't be safe for kids. In fact, I would argue, streets in the city ought to be much safer than the ones in the countryside. We shouldn't have to banish cars completely (really, not desirable or possible) in order to have such safe streets.
Japan is also, quietly, one of the top bicycling countries in the world. For the same reason: it's pleasant and safe to be in most Japanese cities without a car.
I understand your fear of letting kids play on any street in the United States. I think it's unfortunate, and a sign of how far we've fallen. Within my lifetime, we've gone from letting most kids walk and bicycle to school (myself included), down to having almost no kids walk and bicycle to school. That's a travesty. The big advantage of growing up in a city like Boston should be the freedom to wander the streets. If you aren't allowed that, then what's the point of living in the city? If you're going to be trapped in your home anyway, may as well make it a large home out in the suburbs.
Sadly, I believe that many families have made that choice for exactly that reason. (on top of other issues, which I won't get into).
Upton Street is 3 lanes wide, making it slightly too wide to be considered a narrow street. Now, if it were treated better, perhaps it could function as one. But it is not treated well, it is just used for automobile storage for the most part. Not a place for people.
West Newton Street is typical of South End streets, and that's what I'm talking about. Like the street in my picture above, West Newton is 4 car-widths wide: that is not a narrow street. It also happens to be a main through-route, so perhaps it is appropriately sized. That's fine. We need some through-routes. But the problem is that most every other street around it is also similar in size to West Newton Street, even the ones that ought to be small residential streets. That's the problem I have with the South End.
Well, I'm entitled to my own opinion about the South End, and so is everyone else. But we need a common language. If streets like West Newton Street are labeled "narrow", then that label loses all meaning. What's the point of doing that to ourselves?
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Re: 12-story apartment highrise on Oxford Street.
Not sure if there is a good thread for this at the moment, but my $0.02 is that maybe we can move it here: How walkable is your neighborhood?
Not sure if there is a good thread for this at the moment, but my $0.02 is that maybe we can move it here: How walkable is your neighborhood?
Re: 12-story apartment highrise on Oxford Street.
- Our opinions aren't going to change here, and that's ok - but West Newton is one of the few two way streets in the South End and it feels very comfortable driving on it when passing a car headed in the opposite direction. There's plenty of room, and nobody even needs to touch the double yellow line. The few other two way streets in the South End do not feel like this, because they are tighter. And then the rest of them are one way, and one way for a reason. Just because you could park four cars side by side doesnt mean that four cars can drive comfortably past each other without white knuckling it. So I disagree that West Newton is an exemplary street.
- as an aside, if the south end designated certain roads to be formal two way cross streets instead of rerouting traffic by sudden one way signs for every single cross street, there might be a lot more opportunity to further narrow the pavement on the rest of the side streets as they could me made more obsolete for through traffic.
- like I said earlier, there's a difference between playing in the street and playing in the neighborhood which includes perambulating the rights of way through the neighborhood. I would let my kids go out and play and run around the neighborhood in the South End - absolutely. But I wouldnt let them play street hockey or handball in the street itself. The streets are throughways. That's not going to change unless you close them to auto traffic. And the reasons that less city kids are allowed to play outside is not much related to auto traffic concerns. There were plenty of cars - big ones - in the sixties, and everyone still played in the street then. Kids hanging out indoors is a product of the culture of fear and risk aversion that we now live in - Americans dont believe in personal risk or death, and dont want their kids exposed to danger of any kind. They fear germ exposure. And they fear pedophiles, stalkers, terrorists and all other kinds of boogeymen. And all kids now have iPads and smartphones, and play videogames instead... And I think our society values the outdoors and other simple pleasures in life far less. Now, rewind the clock to the 1910s and maybe you have an argument, since perhaps there were even more kids in the pre-car era than there were in the 1960s - I dont know. But I would say that it's not auto technology, but technology in general that has produced this, along with the other societal factors I mentioned.
- to be perfectly honest, Matthew, Im not a huge fan of the South End, either.
- yes, let's move the thread.
Of course there are a wide variety of cities on these continents, and I cannot even begin to express that variety in a short forum post. Cities will have a mix of wide streets and narrow streets in different proportions, and we can have great debates about what the right proportion ought to be. And yes, architecture and design can work together to overcome the negative effects of width -- up to a point.
But there's really no way around the fact that the typical South End residential street is really too wide:
That's a whole lot of open pavement, surrounded by storage for automobiles. That's a race track, not a street for people.
Compare that to this narrow street:
Acorn Street, Beacon Hill.
(Fun note: it is said to be the most photographed street in all of Boston.)
Most of Tokyo's streets are small like this, not just one. It's easy to find them. Yes, Tokyo also has giant streets, elevated highways, and all sorts of craziness. A city can (and should) have both small streets and big streets. I think it's telling that Japanese parents don't mind letting their kids walk around on these small streets. Just because the street is in the city doesn't mean that it shouldn't be safe for kids. In fact, I would argue, streets in the city ought to be much safer than the ones in the countryside. We shouldn't have to banish cars completely (really, not desirable or possible) in order to have such safe streets.
Japan is also, quietly, one of the top bicycling countries in the world. For the same reason: it's pleasant and safe to be in most Japanese cities without a car.
I understand your fear of letting kids play on any street in the United States. I think it's unfortunate, and a sign of how far we've fallen. Within my lifetime, we've gone from letting most kids walk and bicycle to school (myself included), down to having almost no kids walk and bicycle to school. That's a travesty. The big advantage of growing up in a city like Boston should be the freedom to wander the streets. If you aren't allowed that, then what's the point of living in the city? If you're going to be trapped in your home anyway, may as well make it a large home out in the suburbs.
Sadly, I believe that many families have made that choice for exactly that reason. (on top of other issues, which I won't get into).
Upton Street is 3 lanes wide, making it slightly too wide to be considered a narrow street. Now, if it were treated better, perhaps it could function as one. But it is not treated well, it is just used for automobile storage for the most part. Not a place for people.
West Newton Street is typical of South End streets, and that's what I'm talking about. Like the street in my picture above, West Newton is 4 car-widths wide: that is not a narrow street. It also happens to be a main through-route, so perhaps it is appropriately sized. That's fine. We need some through-routes. But the problem is that most every other street around it is also similar in size to West Newton Street, even the ones that ought to be small residential streets. That's the problem I have with the South End.
Well, I'm entitled to my own opinion about the South End, and so is everyone else. But we need a common language. If streets like West Newton Street are labeled "narrow", then that label loses all meaning. What's the point of doing that to ourselves?
- Our opinions aren't going to change here, and that's ok - but West Newton is one of the few two way streets in the South End and it feels very comfortable driving on it when passing a car headed in the opposite direction. There's plenty of room, and nobody even needs to touch the double yellow line. The few other two way streets in the South End do not feel like this, because they are tighter. And then the rest of them are one way, and one way for a reason. Just because you could park four cars side by side doesnt mean that four cars can drive comfortably past each other without white knuckling it. So I disagree that West Newton is an exemplary street.
- as an aside, if the south end designated certain roads to be formal two way cross streets instead of rerouting traffic by sudden one way signs for every single cross street, there might be a lot more opportunity to further narrow the pavement on the rest of the side streets as they could me made more obsolete for through traffic.
- like I said earlier, there's a difference between playing in the street and playing in the neighborhood which includes perambulating the rights of way through the neighborhood. I would let my kids go out and play and run around the neighborhood in the South End - absolutely. But I wouldnt let them play street hockey or handball in the street itself. The streets are throughways. That's not going to change unless you close them to auto traffic. And the reasons that less city kids are allowed to play outside is not much related to auto traffic concerns. There were plenty of cars - big ones - in the sixties, and everyone still played in the street then. Kids hanging out indoors is a product of the culture of fear and risk aversion that we now live in - Americans dont believe in personal risk or death, and dont want their kids exposed to danger of any kind. They fear germ exposure. And they fear pedophiles, stalkers, terrorists and all other kinds of boogeymen. And all kids now have iPads and smartphones, and play videogames instead... And I think our society values the outdoors and other simple pleasures in life far less. Now, rewind the clock to the 1910s and maybe you have an argument, since perhaps there were even more kids in the pre-car era than there were in the 1960s - I dont know. But I would say that it's not auto technology, but technology in general that has produced this, along with the other societal factors I mentioned.
- to be perfectly honest, Matthew, Im not a huge fan of the South End, either.
- yes, let's move the thread.
JohnAKeith
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Re: 12-story apartment highrise on Oxford Street.
This is the most-ridiculous thread in the history of ArchBoston. Thank you.
This is the most-ridiculous thread in the history of ArchBoston. Thank you.
whighlander
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Re: 12-story apartment highrise on Oxford Street.
Personally -- I think the street ought to be narrow enough that you can practice a mountain climbing technique known as chimneying*1
for example my favorite street in Boston -- Scottow's or Scotts Alley*1
How many streets can be closed with a ordinary household entry door
or then there's Salt Lane -- a slightly wider street quite close by where you might be able to try bridging*2
1 -- to chimney is to put your back on one wall and your feet on the other or to straddle the void with your feet and arms -- try it sometime if you want to feel the weight of the world on your back
2 -- to bridge you put your feet on one wall and press against the other with your palms with arms extended -- hopefully you can slant yourself with more of the weight on your feet -- this one is great for getting worn-out in a matter of seconds
Personally -- I think the street ought to be narrow enough that you can practice a mountain climbing technique known as chimneying*1
for example my favorite street in Boston -- Scottow's or Scotts Alley*1
How many streets can be closed with a ordinary household entry door
or then there's Salt Lane -- a slightly wider street quite close by where you might be able to try bridging*2
1 -- to chimney is to put your back on one wall and your feet on the other or to straddle the void with your feet and arms -- try it sometime if you want to feel the weight of the world on your back
2 -- to bridge you put your feet on one wall and press against the other with your palms with arms extended -- hopefully you can slant yourself with more of the weight on your feet -- this one is great for getting worn-out in a matter of seconds
Boston02124
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Re: 12-story apartment highrise on Oxford Street.
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Boston02124
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Re: 12-story apartment highrise on Oxford Street.
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Boston02124
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too bad this is almost topped out ;/
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