Police Details, Cameras, & Enforcement Methods

[RandomWalk]

If the legislature wanted to end the need for Prop 2 1/2 overrides, they could outlaw right on red and legalize traffic enforcement cameras simultaneously. Instant windfall for municipalities…

 

[FK4]

Bus lane, double parking (and in some case bike lane) infractions only get solved by enforcement. You cannot design your way out of some bad Boston habits. If it is 'drivable' space, Boston drivers will end up there (look at trolley reservations!)

Oh, I am totally down for that. That probably would require quite a lot of cameras and technology but as a concept I have zero problem with auto ticketing this sort of scofflaw.

 

[thepixelnation]

local police seem to never bother enforcing driving rules

just saw a police officer totally ignore a car illegally reverse into oncoming traffic after making a wrong turn right in front of his squad car. He was texting while driving so he didn't see a thing.

I'd be happy to have to pay fines for when I run red lights, since I don't intentionally run red lights and a lot of other people do.

 

[bigeman312]

I'd be happy to have to pay fines for when I run red lights, since I don't intentionally run red lights and a lot of other people do.

Anecdotally: there appears to be a lot more intentional rule-breaking among road users than there was 10 or even five years ago. It’s something we need to address as a society and the status quo is not working.

It’s something that BPD seems wholly disinterested in combatting. The next logical step is to automate the process. Cameras seem to be that step.

 

[393b40]

Anecdotally: there appears to be a lot more intentional rule-breaking among road users than there was 10 or even five years ago. It’s something we need to address as a society and the status quo is not working.

It’s something that BPD seems wholly disinterested in combatting. The next logical step is to automate the process. Cameras seem to be that step.

Is there more or do we just talk about it more online these days so it seems like more.

Same phenomenon as everyone thinking there's a child predator on every street corner.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Is there more or do we just talk about it more online these days so it seems like more.

Same phenomenon as everyone thinking there's a child predator on every street corner.

Real accident data shows that the average speed (and level of speeding and aggressive driving) increased dramatically during the pandemic, and has not come back down.

What the data says about dangerous driving and road rage in the U.S.

There’s a fair amount of data indicating that Americans’ driving habits have worsened over the past five years, at least in some ways.

www.pewresearch.org

Increased road fatalities, increased fatal hit-and-run accidents....

 

[RandomWalk]

Anecdotally, I have found that other drivers are a lot less tolerant of fellow drivers moving at the signed limit if they perceive that it’s possible to drive faster. I have caught myself pushing more aggressively to avoid the annoyed honks and dirty looks.

I don’t know if it’s just folks having lost some of the social graces in the pandemic, a change in the mix of drivers (shift towards gig work), or something else.

 

[Stlin]

I mean, it's iffy. You the citizen is mostly likely to encounter the police in an adversarial way during a traffic stop - and it's at a interesting intersection of safety from multiple perspectives. Over the past 5 years, something like 400 people were shot by the police during traffic stops. To quote the NYT, "the chief enforcement mechanism of road safety for decades in America — the traffic stop — has been a recurring scene of police misconduct."

That said, the relative paucity in cop visibility in MA is probably at least partially related to the fact that most departments are still massively understaffed since COVID and the 2020 protests - being a cop isn't exactly seen as being progressive, and basically every municipal department is struggling to hire. A former classmate who is now a statie told me recently that the State Police has an authorized strength of over 3000 sworn officers, but actually only has close to 2300 troopers.

There's also quite a bit of research that shows increased police enforcement of driving laws don't improve road safety on a lasting basis - the memory fades the minute the police are out of sight, out of mind. It's a very reactive system, not a proactive one - You almost certainly have seen this driving on the interstates - traffic behaves so long as there is a visible statie, but the moment they exit, traffic accelerates.

USDOT still funds enforcement grants, but the new approach seems focused less on making stops, but making it known that it'll be enforced via messaging, but it's probably best as a component of a vision zero based infrastructure solution - USDOT is apparently referring to it now as SS4A (safe streets 4 all).

Generally, I don't think we need more cops on the road enforcing general traffic laws - most of the dangerous behavior other than DUIs can be targeted via road design and camera deployments. There's several interesting programs around the country where alternate enforcement regimes are being piloted.

Alternative Traffic Enforcement: Identifying Areas for Future Research

Alternative traffic enforcement is an emerging crime and justice issue prompted by efforts of dozens of jurisdictions throughout the United States. In response to documented dangers and disparities, they seek to change how some traffic violations are handled.[1] Specifically, these strategies...

nij.ojp.gov

 

[bigeman312]

I mean, it's iffy. You the citizen is mostly likely to encounter the police in an adversarial way during a traffic stop - and it's at a interesting intersection of safety from multiple perspectives. Over the past 5 years, something like 400 people were shot by the police during traffic stops. To quote the NYT, "the chief enforcement mechanism of road safety for decades in America — the traffic stop — has been a recurring scene of police misconduct."

...

Isn't this an argument in favor of automated traffic enforcement?

Instead of a potentially, unneccessarily dangerous interaction with a police officer, you just get a violation ticket in the mail. Seems like a win-win on that front, to me.

 

[RandomWalk]

If you take the human cops out of the equation, you also take the reciprocity of letting a fellow first responder or first responder’s family member slide. Enforcement becomes rote, at least until all the scofflaws install Q branch rotating license plates.

 

[thepixelnation]

Legalize red light/bus lane cameras, allow for civilian reporting of parking in Bike Lanes/Bus Lanes as well as covered or obscured plates, and make police lock up their phones on duty and focus on the remaining dangerous drivers seems like the best case scenario here.

 

[TallIsGood]

Big brother lives to tax and fine the populace so it can have more money to feed the beast of government. Once camera enforcement starts it will expand and speed limits lowered until everyone is getting fined (with politicians tickets fixed of course).

 

[bigeman312]

Big brother lives to tax and fine the populace so it can have more money to feed the beast of government. Once camera enforcement starts it will expand and speed limits lowered until everyone is getting fined (with politicians tickets fixed of course).

This statement is a perfect example of the slippery slope fallacy. This would be a perfect example to use in a logic textbook.

 

[sneijder]

Big brother lives to tax and fine the populace so it can have more money to feed the beast of government. Once camera enforcement starts it will expand and speed limits lowered until everyone is getting fined (with politicians tickets fixed of course).

I'm perfectly fine with allowing a ~10mph buffer above the speed limit before a ticket is triggered. Or hell, just have it installed on city streets rather than interstate highways. Basically everywhere in the city there's a radar speed sign, replace it with a speed camera. You do make a point that road design needs to be adjusted as well so the road doesn't "deceive" you into driving a higher speed.

 

[FK4]

I don’t think that in general this is a realistic was to enforce safer driving on local streets. You’re talking about tons of cameras, and systems to handle them, monitoring, ticket dispensation, etc. A lot of infrastructure and it only works where it works, which means that people still drive like jerks in zones where no cameras are (and there are laws making it obligatory to notify people when they’re being monitors like that so people will know).

For a few select instances, maybe this is the right move. But as I said before, I don’t think something that seems shiny and novel should be overly embraced if the enthusiasm is driven not by genuine evidence or logic that it’s the right move to make, but rather out of avoidance of tackling existing issues that are felt to be hopelessly unsolvable, and will remain unsolved. This gets at broader conversations about the role of police in the first place, but it blows my mind that in a state where politics is so completely dominated by police unions, we also have an almost complete lack of enforcement of local traffic laws in most municipalities at least close to Boston. When we hear that police are “not allowed to ticket” vehicles parked in a bus lane, seems like changing whatever law prevents or simply having the mayor have a loud, public conversation using the bully pulpit if necessary to beat against any police pushback seems like a far simpler and more reasonable approach than sinking hundreds of thousands of dollars (likely more) into cameras.

 

[BeansTheCat]

...it blows my mind that in a state where politics is so completely dominated by police unions, we also have an almost complete lack of enforcement of local traffic laws in most municipalities at least close to Boston.

These seem to be basically the same issue. If a police union is serving it's members effectively, it will advocate for them to get paid as much as possible for as little work as possible, while also making it very difficult to get fired. Strong police unions just make it harder to reprimand cops for not enforcing traffic laws.

That said, I do think if some deterrence or enforcement can be automated, it should free up police resources to be better spent (or even just reduce OT). Camera enforcement in school zones, bus-mounted cameras for bus lane enforcement, and possibly civilian reported illegal parking (double parking/bike lanes in particular) are lower-hanging fruit.

Ultimately, the way to get the worst drivers off the road is to make the points system more aggressive in suspending licenses. I'm not particularly familiar with how it works, but if a license is only suspended on your third instance of reckless driving or OUI, there is not enough deterrence against unsafe driving. If someone receives a 7-14 day suspension with a first strike, the message should be a lot clearer.

 

[lainpimicaja]

In a last-minute, end of session flurry of bills, it looks like we're gonna get automated enforcement after all. S.2884 passed yesterday and is headed to the Governor's desk now. Excerpt from this WBUR article below:

Thursday's action included three bills newly advanced by the Senate Ways and Means Committee reforming the Massachusetts Insurers Insolvency Fund (S 3003), dealing with licensure for dental hygienists who have practiced for at least five years in another country (S 3004) and allowing installation of school-bus traffic cameras (S 3005).

Under the camera bill, cities and towns could choose to install monitoring devices on school buses to record nearby vehicles that fail to stop. Any images or video could only be obtained for purposes other than enforcement of failing to stop, or defending against such an allegation, by a court order, according to a Senate Ways and Means Committee bill summary.

The House approved the school bus camera bill (H 4940) in July.

Meanwhile, the MBTA and other regional transit authorities could use bus-mounted camera systems to enforce dedicated bus lanes and bus stops under a bill (S 2884) the House passed Thursday, after it gained traction in that chamber's Ways and Means Committee.

Motor vehicles that stop or park in bus-only lanes could face fines ranging from $25 to $125, while those parked at bus stops could be fined $100 under the bill, which passed the Senate in July. Sen. Brendan Crighton at the time said cars blocking bus lanes can hamper public transit service and create hazards for passengers, particularly those with disabilities.

 

[bigeman312]

In a last-minute, end of session flurry of bills, it looks like we're gonna get automated enforcement after all. S.2884 passed yesterday and is headed to the Governor's desk now. Excerpt from this WBUR article linked below:

I am strongly in favor of this because it’s about time Massachusetts catches up with global standards. Countries like Singapore, South Korea, and the UK already use bus-mounted cameras to enforce traffic rules, while places like Sweden and Norway rely on strict fines and regulations. These bills would improve safety for kids and bus riders, reduce delays, and hold drivers accountable for blocking bus lanes and stops—something we’ve been way behind on.

 

[Badusername]

In a last-minute, end of session flurry of bills, it looks like we're gonna get automated enforcement after all. S.2884 passed yesterday and is headed to the Governor's desk now. Excerpt from this WBUR article below:

I'm still a bit unclear after reading the article, both bills have passed both chambers and are ready for signature? Or were they just advanced out of Ways and Means for a future vote? I am pessimistic about the legislature's ability to get anything done so just want to confirm before having a semblance of hope.

 

[Balerion]

I'm still a bit unclear after reading the article, both bills have passed both chambers and are ready for signature? Or were they just advanced out of Ways and Means for a future vote? I am pessimistic about the legislature's ability to get anything done so just want to confirm before having a semblance of hope.

It looks like the bus lane violation bill for MBTA buses and other RTA buses has passed both chambers:

Massachusetts S2884 | 2023-2024 | 193rd General Court

Summary (2024-12-26) Relative to bus lane enforcement [Read third and passed to be engrossed]

legiscan.com

The school bus violation bill that allows districts/towns to equip buses to detect failure-to-stop appears to have made it out of committee in the Senate but hasn't gotten a final vote in the Senate...if I am reading the procedural steps correctly.

Massachusetts H4940 | 2023-2024 | 193rd General Court

Summary (2024-12-26) Concerning the safety of school children embarking and disembarking school buses [Read second, amended (as recommended by the committee on Senate Ways and Means) and ordered to a third reading]

legiscan.com