Portland, ME smokes your hometown, kmp1284

[WindyCity]

Patrick Wrote:
Cambruidge is for all intents and purposes Boston. not to mention even if it stood on its own it still has a dramatically higher population. so does madison, which has a population in the 200,000 range, whereas we only have 64,000.

- I would argue that Madison is a good comparison to Portland.... 53 square miles, which is very similar to Portland, just more population in the City because Madison is much more dense. The MSA's are similar too, with Madison being only slightly smaller.

Patrick also Wrote:
anyway, the fact remains that cities like portland are the exception and not the rule and that was my point. cities like portland give you a lot more flavor than their population would suggest they should, and it comes at a lower price (both in the cost of living and in associated hassle like traffic congestion etc.). thats my only point.

- I would agree, Portland is the exception and not the rule. I used to live in Rockford, IL for a year or so, and Portland deffinately smokes Rockford, even tho Rockford had a higher population (150,000). The population was higher, but density was lower. The downtown, although it had a couple of 15 story buildings and a nice little skyline, was dead at night. Downtown revival has yet to hit Rockford, although when it does Rockford will be pretty neat. Anyhow, if all small/medium sized cities had the density and amenities of Portland or Madison, I might even consider living in one. I'm still suprised you didn't like Boston more than you did Patrick.... For somebody who likes cities as much as yourself, I would have thought you would have liked it more.

 

[WindyCity]

Madison Wisconsin smokes Portland in almost every category. I was amazed when I spent a week out there. You want to talk about what a giant college can do for a city. Two arenas that hold around 18,000 each, great hospital, great lake, traffic isn't bad, people are friendly, hot ass girls everywhere you look, great bars, etc.

It is a very liberal city but a smart liberal city. Portland is a dumb liberal city. Difference between art students and legit students. Plus they have Bucky the Badger.

1. the fact that madison smokes portland is irrelevant. its like saying shaq can dunk over a schoolgirl. madison has 4 tiems the population of portland. It is a major mid sized city, not even comparable to portland, and like you said it has a university with more students than lewiston has people.

2. but there are areas in which portland still, oddly enough, out does even madison.

their airport handles 1.6 million people a year, our handles 1.5 million a year. somethign sound off here? especially for a major university town? doesnt sound like too many people are flying into or out of there.

but they do have an 80,000 seat arena. and a women's semi-professional football team. so, if youre into government buildings and women in football uniforms feel free to indulge. 8)

no honestly, MAdison sounds like a great place and all, but if I were going to go for a larger city than portland (anything over 100,000 people, I would head for somewhere really major, not an inbetween place. but thats just me. I think I would head for San francisco if I was looking for a real city.

Nah you're missing the point. Madison is not a "larger city" than Portland. Maybe in terms of population in the city, but that's because they do a better job at density. The square mileage of each city is basically the same. The MSA of Madison is actually smaller than Portland, meaning there are less people overall in the area.

And airport stats don't mean much. U of Wisconsin being a state school probably has more people there from Wisconsin, meaning that they would drive to get to school, not take the plane. And anyhow, with a MSA smaller than Portland, the regional airport still handles more people.

It's OK Patrick, we know Madison smokes Portland. :wink: :wink: :wink:

 

[Patrick]

- I would argue that Madison is a good comparison to Portland.... 53 square miles, which is very similar to Portland, just more population in the City because Madison is much more dense. The MSA's are similar too, with Madison being only slightly smaller. .

According to wikipedia.org, madison has 70 square miles of land, and portland has about 20, some of which is located on highly inaccessible islands in the bay. Madison also has a university that is equivalent to half of our in city population.
quote]

Lastly, had I had a tour guide, I am sure I would have liked boston more. I always love visiting there, but I could never envision myself living there. it all seemed too complicated. in portland, you can find housing anywhere you want, even three towns outside of the city, and you just drive straight in. In boston, it was like I was lost, I was looking for housing out in brookline, and the guy trying to sell us on the unit was explaining how long it took to get to suffolk law school. lets just say there were more than one transfers on public transportation lines, and one from a bus to the T. all for what? Suffolk? which costs three times as much as U Maine Law? it doesnt make sense from a rational stand point. now if i were offered a job there, fine. that would be different, I would have steady income, and more leisure time to explore the city. but as a grad student, no thank you. it reminded me of a larger version of portland (a much larger version) and I didnt think the added price was worth it. It wasnt that much different from portland, not like honolulu would be or miami or somewhere like that, so I just didnt see why I would waste all the extra money to get the same education and the same sites that I could get in maine (even if it requitred a road trip every now and then). Boston is nice, nothing wrong with it. but would I want to live there? no. I would have LOVED to go to college there, but now I just dont see myself making it there and flourishing. Its a big dump in the winter, too, like most of new england's old cities.

edit -- I mean that last part in the least offensive way...its just that brick buildings look like shit in the winter, as a lifetime of living in maine has taught me, and I found the same ugliness in bostno for ten times the price.

 

[grittys457]

I love Boston as a place to visit. I just get a little tired of it after a day or so. It is the perfect city to go to collge in and perhaps your first few years after. I've had many friends who moved there and they are all back in Portland now. I think a timer goes off in your head when you are ready to settle down and it tells you to get the hell out of there.

It is amazing how big of a city it is yet how walkable. I took my dad and sister to dinner and the Rockettes show last month. I didn't have a ticket for myself so I just walked for two hours. In that time I walked from Theater District, to the North End and waterfront, back up to the commons, all the way down Charles st. into Beacon Hill and all the way back, all the way up Newbury st to Mass ave, then back down Boylston, played around in the Prudential Center, then back to the Theater. I wish I was rich so I could have a place to stay down there too.

 

[grittys457]

Patrick, I think it is different once you know where you are going down there. I used to be very frustrated years ago when I didn't know where to park, where the hell the T was going, where to go.

I don't know when I figured it out, but you just do, like with any city. Now I have zero problem parking, I know where I am wherever I am in the city, and I know where restaurants and certain things are. If you can figure out the parking and how to get in and out without driving all through the city, it makes a huge difference.

 

[Patrick]

my theory is the opposite of all those popular bumper stickers around town: bring boston here. turn us into a mini boston. we sure have a good base from which to start. it just will take vision and drive now. I really dislike how I see so many "leave boston out of portland" stickers everywhere.

 

[grittys457]

Also, we hype up how many restaurant we have here with about 140. The North End, not many blocks at all, has around 90 restaurants. I would love to see more places here with patio seating and open windows. That's what I liked about Charlotsville and that downtown area. Looked like Portsmouth on steroids. The nice weather probably helps.

 

[WindyCity]

HHHMMM I'm getting my city square mileage statistics from Emporis, so I don't know how acurate they are....

Anyhow, graduate school is tight on the budget, so I can see why you didn't want to spend it in Boston. But then again, Brookline is one of the most expensive suburbs, so there is more affordable housing, although it's not as easy to find. And of course any city is gonna be a little overwhelming at first, it just takes a little while to get used to it. Then once you do, it just becomes the same old thing after a while, so if all of your friends live in Portland, it only makes sense to live there too.

 

[Patrick]

Also, we hype up how many restaurant we have here with about 140. The North End, not many blocks at all, has around 90 restaurants. I would love to see more places here with patio seating and open windows. That's what I liked about Charlotsville and that downtown area. Looked like Portsmouth on steroids. The nice weather probably helps.

portland is portsmouth on roids. the two look almost identical with the exception that portland has a city attached to it whereas portsmouth is simply the old port.

the weather definitely helps for outdoor seating.

the north end may have more dense restaurant set up, but its also in the middle of one of the biggest cities in america.

 

[Patrick]

HHHMMM I'm getting my city square mileage statistics from Emporis, so I don't know how acurate they are....

Anyhow, graduate school is tight on the budget, so I can see why you didn't want to spend it in Boston. But then again, Brookline is one of the most expensive suburbs, so there is more affordable housing, although it's not as easy to find. And of course any city is gonna be a little overwhelming at first, it just takes a little while to get used to it. Then once you do, it just becomes the same old thing after a while, so if all of your friends live in Portland, it only makes sense to live there too.

yeah emporis is usually off on geography, simply because it takes into account water area as well sometimes, and other times fails to take into accounttowns and villages etc that might be incorporated within the city limits but are somewhat individual municipalities. I usually stick with wikipedia or some other online encyclopedia.

I might also add that if I were single, i would have no problem living in a more run down part of boston, or a student ghetto, but with a seriosu girlfriend now fiancee it is a dual decision and she said brookline so brookline it was. She hated Boston....not for visiting, but for living. she is also very close to her fam. we moved from portland to burlington vt which is nothing in terms of being a city so when we moved back to maine, from our perspective, we were back in the big leagues. boston has a lot to offer, but really if you have no reason to live there, why would you? Without a really exscellent law school to attend, why would I move there? suffolk is a job factory for massacusetts politicians, and U Maine is the same for our state, so it makes no sense for me to go there for school. had harvard or BC accepted me, maybe even northeastern law, i would be there most likely, and I am sure I would have figured things out. I prefer just to visit when I have nothing else to do. it really is in our backyard, or should I say we are in your back yward? either way it is a very quick trip into the city from portland.

 

[Max]

Just wanted to put my two cents in on Charlottesville. I grew up in Portland but live in DC now.

This last weekend it was like 70 degrees so my girlfriend and I decided to go for a drive down to Charlottesville to check out Monticello (Thomas Jefferson's historic estate). We did just that and it was a beautiful drive down there, through the country and some majestic old plantations.

After we were done at Monticello we decided to go downtown to get some dinner, this was about 5pm on Sunday. We followed the signs towards "historic downtown Charlottesville." We had just read about Charlottesville before we left so we were excited to check out the "downtown mall" and all it had to offer.

We parked on a side street and walked down to the mall. Let me assure all the Portland folk, you've got nothing to fear from Charlottesville. Even though it was 70 degrees out there weren't many people hanging around. We were looking for a place to eat but it seemed that almost everyplace closed at 5pm on Sundays. There was a hamburger place and a pizza place open, but we wanted something more unique. We did wander into one restaurant that appeared to be open but the hostess informed us that the kitchen closed down at 5 but we could have a drink.

Anyhow, the "mall" ran about the length of Exchange Street from top to bottom. There appeared to be some cool shops and it definitely had a unique "non-chain" vibe, but everyplace was closed. There were a few vacant storefronts, and the strip appeared to be a repository for UVA frat boys. Needless to say we were a little disappointed and we left without eating. We drove back to DC and had a great crab cake dinner at our favorite place.

Also, my two cents about the larger discussion going on here between Patrick and others about Portland vs. the universe. First off, I admire Patrick's love of his town and his enthusiasm for talking up all its great aspects, of which it has many. I share his desire to see some great buildings erected downtown, but the reality is that there has to be a reason to build them. There has to be workers or dwellers to occupy the building, and there has to be a financial incentive for developers to build it. In a town like Portland where there is a very stagnant population and slow-growing economy, these kind of developments are going to occur very slowly and very deliberately. If I had a hundred million dollars, I'd love to call up Joe Boulos and tell him to get the project back on the table. However, most developers who have that kind of money aren't willing to put it into what would be a rather risky investment any way you look at it. It's about the money - and there just isn't a lot of it in Portland, comparatively speaking.

There is no doubt Portland is one of the great small cities in this country. Some people have mentioned Madison, which I've visited and will agree that it too is a great small city. I'd give my preference to Portland mainly for its location and its aesthetic qualities, I mean - it's on the ocean, and that's hard to beat. Madison is in the middle of miles of flat, rolling farmland. And, believe it or not, it's actually colder than Portland in the winter. But, it's still a great town and had I grown up in Madison I'm sure I'd feel differently.

The biggest drawback, to me, to small cities like Portland and Madison is that they simply don't offer the vast job markets that you'll find in larger metropolises. The main reason I left Portland was to have more job opportunities. The jobs are in Boston, NYC, and DC because that's where the people are. The entertainment is in Boston, NYC, and DC because that's where the people are. On some level that sucks, but it's the reality.

All that said, and as others have pointed out, there are trade-offs to living in bigger cities. Unless you are wealthy enough to live in urban isolation, there are many inconveniences and headaches that go along with living in urban areas. In NYC, I spent almost half my income on rent, and lived on the fringes of Harlem, where I was always looking over my shoulder as I hustled back to my apartment from the subway. It could take me an hour to get to work, via subway or bus, even though I lived less than four miles from my job. The grocery stores are tiny and expensive, and walking down 110th street with an armful of bags sucks compared to loading up the trunk of the car at Shaw's.

That said, I find DC to be somewhat of a good compromise between Portland and NYC. The neighborhood I live in is a lot like the West End. It's pretty sedate, yet I'm close to nightlife, entertainment, dining and a downtown full of great jobs. Then again, for a lot of people in DC life is just as hard as it is anywhere else.

 

[grittys457]

What a well written post my friend. Most of Portland is closed on Sunday too though. Monument Square is a ghost town. I would like to know how that area in Charlottesville is on say a Friday night.

You are right about attracting people here. It's a cycle. You need the jobs to bring the people, you need the people to build the area, you need a built area for jobs to come here.

I would give Joe Boulos my left toe if it would get his project done.

 

[Patrick]

Grittys i just spoke with Joe and we will be over this afternoon for the collection. but he said your right would work equally as well.

Secondly, max, that was well written, but I never meant to say portland was better than the universe, just better than everywhere else its size.

Also, i think it offers a higher quality of life than say a place like bostno, because even though it is true that you get all of the better concerts and entertainments etc in bostno because thats where the people are it is also true (as you said) that you had to live near harlem and take an hour to get to work. big city comes with big stress and hassle. My point is that with a moderately sized city like portland, you get a lot of the big city with proportionately less of the hassle, so in the end you are equally as good if not better off. in portland i will argue that you are better off. you get nice restaurants, nice jobs (comparatively to the rest of the state) and low cost of living, now traffic, and nice shopping. of course, grittys, you, or anyone else can always say there are better shops in paris or better restaurants in the north end, or better jobs in ABC town but my point is that there is a pretty darn healthy mix of all that good stuff right here. and for the truly big city, we have to drive under two hours. my mom is a nurse and she has friends who commute from portland to boston for work daily. its that close. I know you probably know that already.

also, about what you said about buildings, there is the demand here. its just that its often times gets spread otu into too much sprawl. for example, the new four story building in bayside is just an extension of the five story business (AAA) that was built like five years ago. stupid planning when it should have just been a 9 story to begin with. Portland has one of the lowes office space vacancy rates in the country and it was names one of the best small business markets for business vitaility in the entire country. i think it may have been named one or two, but I cannot remember. anyhow, it has a lower vacancy rate than boston. the thing is, portland, unlike other places, does not build on speculation. that accounts for the low vacancy rates, but it also accounts for the lack of building mass compared with other palces. it would be interesting to do a study of cities with a lot of tall buildings and take out all of the unused floors from every high rise. I bet some cities would half in size by the time we were done. but portland would stay the same. in manchester, they have this 20 story buildings with like 5-7 floors onoccupied. so why not just have a fully occupied 15 story tower? its the same thing in portland, we just dont have 5 ghost stories at the top. also, the buildings that were proposed last year didnt make it for reasons having to do with lack of demand (demand for office space and rental or ownership on the peninsula is very high) it had to do with issues of parking (waterview) and politics (lincoln center). it is not an issue of demand, as the $2 million + row homes in the west end would seemingly attest to.

i agree there are better jobs in DC, boston, NYC etc. but cost of living is higher, hassle is higher, crime is higher, and these things all have costs associated with them that should be taken directly out of the pay check to see how they really compare to portland. there is a quality of life that people factor into their earnings that makes them agree to accept lower pay if it means they get to spend more time at home because of a shorter commute, if it means they dont have to worry about crime, or that they can own a car, or that their housing costs ten times less. thats my only point.

 

[Patrick]

my last post was terribly spelled, I just woke up, excuse my pea brain language.

 

[WindyCity]

Patrick, you sure love your hometown!
Although big cities might have higher crime rates, more traffic, and a few other "costs" that smaller cities like Portland don't have as much as, there's something to be said for the energy and life that you feel living in a big city that you just can't find in smaller cities. Don't get me wrong, Portland comes as close as a smaller city can, but to me it's just not the same. Traffic can be mitigated by living close to where you work/hang out, and crime rates can be deceiving. In my expirience, it's the people who are involved in illegal activities that expirience the most crime. Sure, there are a few random crimes that are gonna be committed to innocent people, but I think for the most part if you're obeying the law you don't have to worry too much about crime.
Living in a big city, I feel like I'm a part of something much bigger than myself; like there are millions of people going through what I am and we share this expirience together. It's a beautiful thing that I don't think I'd feel as much if I lived in a smaller city.
Anyhow... it's all a matter of opinion really.... but to me, the costs associated with big city living are well outweighed by the benefits they provide that smaller cities can't.
And if Boston doesn't have a higher quality of life than Portland, I'm curious to know in your opinion what cities do? Is it just that you like the small city benefits of Portland without the hassle of a big city in every way? I'd be interested to hear....

And don't sleep on Madison! Portland v. Madison 2007 baby! Let's get it on....
In a related note, Tim Sylvia... UFC heavyweight champion hails from the great state of Maine. That's one tough mutha right there. I could hear when he interviewed somewhat of an accent that was familiar and comforting to me. I wanna say he's form Lewiston, but i'm not sure thats right....

 

[Patrick]

Quality of life is not an objective thing, so it will be different for everyone, I agree. I was merely saying that for me, Portland has a very high quality of life, higher than Boston. The way i see it, the things that boston has which Portland does not are not things I could afford on a day to day basis (celtics, for example) so I could go to them just as frequently if i lived in Portland as I could if I lived in the city of Boston. That is, I believe, why so many people choose to live in southern NH versus the city of Boston. Maine is just a little further removed, but that added distance is made up for by what we have to offer ourselves in our own backyard. Portland comes close, as you said, and that is all I really wanted to get across--that was my only point. it comes close to big city amenities, and it comes nowhere near big city hassle. So, in terms of tradeoffs, that sounds pretty good to me. you get more bang for your buck up here, and when you really need a good time, the city of Boston is a short drive. Of course it is more exciting to live in Boston. I wont deny that. Portland doesnt come close. MY REAL POINT was that portland smokes other similary sized cities.

most cities of 65,000 dont have much urbanity to them. look at framingham, Mass. and the ones in that population range that do start to get urban sometimes skip the cultural aspect and get stranded with all of the problems associated with being urban, like crime. take lynn or lawrence or lowell for examples. Portland seemingly manages to get the urban part down, with a vibrant (although small) downtown with a handful of high rises, and it skips over the crime part altogether, and replaces it with a vibrant cultural scene, with artists, museums, a city orchestra, world class restaurants, unique shops etc. it is a rare blend of urbaness, low crime, and culture, all located in a hassle free environment two hours from a real city. that, to me, is as good as it gets.

And true some cities may come close, or even do better than portland, but most cities its size do not. The original title of this thread was 'why portland is one of the best places to live" but it was not, nor will it ever be "why portland is better than boston or madison or xyz town."


Finally, yes I do love my hometown. Without pride in the area you live, you cannot complain about things going down the drain. progress begins with pride. we need more city pride, not less, so I dislike it when people always complain about portland sucking so much when they dont realize how good they in fact have it. my friend from the distant portland suburb of west buxton moved to providence and now comes home and shits all over portland as if we live in the sticks. we were out new years eve and she was saying that no one here dresses up, and people in boston always dress up. my response was that people in boston dont all dress up, its just people in the fancy parts. lets roll through roxbury and DOT and see how many people are in spike heels. and we were not in the flashy part of portland, so comparing cities like that makes no sense. that is, its nonsense. every city has its flashy zone, and its grimey zones. portland is no exception. but if anyone wants to call us hicks, they havent seen exchange street on a summer's eve. anyhow i am now rambling so i will stop.

 

[grittys457]

Tim Syvia hits wicked hahd. Too bad he has to fight Randy Couture next.
Tim is from the Ellsworth area up north.

My friend Mike Brown also fought in the UFC two years ago against Genki Sudo. Marcus Davis who has also had a few fights in the UFC, including one coming up, fights and teaces out of the Bangor area. Amanda Buckner is one of the top ten female fighters in the world and she teaches and trains in Portland along with her husband Jay Jack who has had many fights.

Madison better go drive to Iowa to pick up some people if they wanna fight us!

 

[Patrick]

Lewiston is probably one of the toughest towns in New England, along with a host of mill cities in Massachusetts, and perhaps some in NH. i was born there, but lived across the river in Auburn. we moved to Morning street on munjoy hill not long after. not a big improvement. but I was only a baby so i dont remember. then moved to south portland, then back to portland wen i was 8. been here ever since except for a short 4 school years in burlington (which sucked). theres a reason why the Ali fight in which he had his famous knowck-out shot of sunny liston was rescheduled for Lewiston after being closed in mass. It is a tough town through and through. people there fight for fun. Joey Gamache, lightweight world champion boxer is also from lewiston.

But lewiston is still no portland, just a dump, like most cities of its and portlands size. no skyline, either, not like this one:

 

[lexicon506]

Just wanted to put my two cents in on Charlottesville.

I'm sorry that you didn't have that great of an experience in Charlottesville, but you really came at a bad time. Sunday evening isn't exactly the most bustling time of the week. Grittys is right, next time, come by on a Friday night around 6 and I promise you that Cville will surprise you. The sheer number of people that come out to the Mall is amazing given that the city only has 40,000. It reminds me of a mini Ramblas. There are street musicians at every corner along with a big act at the large amphitheater on the east end of the mall. And you can count on restaurants staying open well past 5 pm. Saturdays when the weather is nice are also good days to go for a stroll along the mall. The empty store fronts you saw have been held by a developer for a long time, and his project is finally approved (9 story mixed use building). Near maximum and maximum density projects are also being proposed for the few remaining surface parking lots in the downtown area. So I hope you give Cville another chance, because what you saw of our downtown is not the everyday scene.

 

[Patrick]

yeah sundays are not optimal days for city surfing.

Has anyone on here been to burlington, VT in the summer? Charlottesville sounds a lot like burlington. It has a population of 40,000 people, two malls, a long strip of shops, and another one of the public Ivy league schools (like UVA), UVM.

Gritty's if you like the sounds of charlottesville and you dont want to travel all that far you may want to consider going up to Burlington. I posted a few pictures of the new construction going on up there before the board crashed last May, and they were in the process of topping out a ten story mixed use structure by the lake. It has a metro area of around 200,000 people, and in the city there are 55,000 people in ten square miles (if you include students living in town). there are three colleges there, one of which is major (11,000 people).

http://www.ci.burlington.vt.us/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burlington,_Vermont#Demographics

http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/ci/?id=burlington-vt-usa


I promise you will come back longing for some portland.