Portland Passenger Rail

TC_zoid said:
Another great opportunity to create prominence for Portland. Now that 58 Fore will be a de facto failure to unify as a notable public space, what about a new train station? If you haven't, I suggest you take a look (and visit) at Boston's new North Station development and the upcoming South Station one. Both are centered within its city core, and both have (or will) new office (hi-rise), apartments, hotel (North), entertainment (North), and exciting food and drink options (on the way for South Station). It's too bad the old Union Station site can't be somehow worked into this idea, instead of another massive building for Maine Med. Thompson's Point is a "point," at the end, and divided off by the 295 wall. If the station was where it used to be, it would be easier access to Maine Medical Center (conceivably a long, enclosed, and futuristic and exciting "movement" walkway), the new USM, and Hadlock/Fitzpatrick/Expo experiences. Portland needs to start being more intelligent with its future planning, its master plan, of which has not been working. Why not be smart like Boston? Perhaps because few in Portland/Maine are willing to become participatory for the bigger picture? Most focus on the glass as 10% empty, that it can't be done, or dwell on an insignificant aside (e.g., "up to 50mph" lol) to not have to put in the work (with reason and logic) which takes effort. A great opportunity is here thanks to Gov. Mills. And this new train station could be within a bigger development, the way they do it in Boston, a city influenced by Harvard and M.I.T. (intelligentsia). With a new and bigger USM, and Roux presence (I hate the bean lot/point location), Portland could be a smaller and somewhat better life version of Boston, or if it really wanted to.

Here are frame grabs for those who don't subscribe to the PPH (I don't blame you).

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If Portland had only been forward-thinking enough to not tear down their two beautiful train stations to begin with. Amongst some other mindless losses (opera houses/theaters for instance). You can't rebuild this shit once it's gone.
 
The former Union Station site is mostly or approximately available, right? The good thing about being alive in 2023 is that it’s time to tear down the stuff they built in the 1960s atop the sites of the railroad stuff we lost

Somewhere on AB @F-Line to Dudley led a discussion of new rail terminal siting options in Portland
 
Arlington said:
The former Union Station site is mostly or approximately available, right? The good thing about being alive in 2023 is that it’s time to tear down the stuff they built in the 1960s atop the sites of the railroad stuff we lost

Somewhere on AB @F-Line to Dudley led a discussion of new rail terminal siting options in Portland
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The former Union Station site (which is now an active, if unattractive, shopping center) has been purchased by Maine Medical Center's parent company, which has a habit of landbanking any site from which their buildings can be seen (and they're on one of the highest points in the city). No telling what their plans will be for it.

MaineDOT is taking the lead on the study and eventual new train station; with the desire for it to be on the mainline between the bridge and Congress St., the only real option IMHO is the current Ferguson warehouse/showroom, and that's a lousy spot fpr major redevelopment. (Really, if we wanted a major redevelopment opportunity, the place to look would be the Deering Junction area at Morrill's Corner, behind Bruno's. You've got the restaurant, the Portland Boxing Club, and a whole lot of land in between that used to be home to a casino chip factory.)
 
markhb said:
The former Union Station site (which is now an active, if unattractive, shopping center) has been purchased by Maine Medical Center's parent company, which has a habit of landbanking any site from which their buildings can be seen (and they're on one of the highest points in the city). No telling what their plans will be for it.

MaineDOT is taking the lead on the study and eventual new train station; with the desire for it to be on the mainline between the bridge and Congress St., the only real option IMHO is the current Ferguson warehouse/showroom, and that's a lousy spot fpr major redevelopment. (Really, if we wanted a major redevelopment opportunity, the place to look would be the Deering Junction area at Morrill's Corner, behind Bruno's. You've got the restaurant, the Portland Boxing Club, and a whole lot of land in between that used to be home to a casino chip factory.)
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There was talk of that Bruno's site being a grocery store (Market Basket?) like 10 years ago and never happened. Not a bad location, but not centralized to downtown, which is what we ultimately need. So then what, a bus line for downtown service?

So then what? Tear up Commercial and put a station between Chandler's & Widgery Wharf? Or Portland Fish Pier across from the Marriott? Or the parking lot on Commercial across from the Marine Terminal?

Get rid of the clover-leaf ramps at Forest Ave and lose the ballfield at Deering Oaks? Move the ball field toward Back Cove or Kennedy Park?

Heck, let's rip down La Quinta while we're at it.

If Ferguson, then rip down everything between that and Tyson/Barber Foods ... that's the best hope.

Then we're looking at The Portland Water District buildings and those buildings along St. James across from Dougherty Field.

Thompson's Point seems too out of the way. Rock Row is too. Both would require some kind of bus link to downtown, taxis, uber etc. Negates the whole purpose of having downtown train access.

Portland really screwed up their planning.
 
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The one site Trainriders NE is looking at is the Mercy site. A parking facility would be built in the parking lot. Main Line connection.
 
PWMFlyer said:
The one site Trainriders NE is looking at is the Mercy site. A parking facility would be built in the parking lot. Main Line connection.
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It would be easier to judge if Google Maps had an updated aerial that showed the new hospital, but if they're talking about the employee lot area and the COVID testing building way down near the bridge I could see it.

Back before the Downeaster got going, but after the subject of extending to Brunswick was brought up, there was a thought of running it along the Union Branch as far as Forest Ave., then along I-295 ( a ROW the state has preserved) to a station basically in the Marginal Way Park & Ride lot, and from there across a new bridge to connect to the Grand Trunk / St. Lawrence & Atlantic to go north. That would not only provide downtown access (although the main driver was visibility for the new service), but it would also eliminate all the grade crossings in the Woodfords area (at the expense of adding new grade crossings of Forest, Preble and Franklin). And that was in an era when Bayside and East Bayside were still somewhere between industrial and awful. Unfortunately, that ship has long-since sailed, especially with the millions that went into the five-mile siding in Cumberland and Yarmouth.
 
DanielPWM19 said:
There was talk of that Bruno's site being a grocery store (Market Basket?) like 10 years ago and never happened. Not a bad location, but not centralized to downtown, which is what we ultimately need. So then what, a bus line for downtown service?

So then what? Tear up Commercial and put a station between Chandler's & Widgery Wharf? Or Portland Fish Pier across from the Marriott? Or the parking lot on Commercial across from the Marine Terminal?

Get rid of the clover-leaf ramps at Forest Ave and lose the ballfield at Deering Oaks? Move the ball field toward Back Cove or Kennedy Park?

Heck, let's rip down La Quinta while we're at it.

If Ferguson, then rip down everything between that and Tyson/Barber Foods ... that's the best hope.

Then we're looking at The Portland Water District buildings and those buildings along St. James across from Dougherty Field.

Thompson's Point seems too out of the way. Rock Row is too. Both would require some kind of bus link to downtown, taxis, uber etc. Negates the whole purpose of having downtown train access.

Portland really screwed up their planning.
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The core of downtown - Congress St. between Bramhall and Franklin - is inaccessible because Portland is shaped like a giant Pringle's.

Theoretically, service could be brought to downtown as I described above, but as I said that negates the passing siding we (the state) just built.

Commercial St. (where it was one thought a station could be sited) has become very complicated because of the container port and the new VA hospital that took over the space where the line ran on the north side. Before that you could theoretically have rebuilt a line on that side, through the Clark St. tunnel and put a station on that parking lot you mentioned.

But I'm going to push back a little, too: why, exactly, do we need the station to be centralized to downtown? What additional changes in e.g. schedule would be needed to leverage what you think the downtown site would gain, particularly since it's no more than a 10-15 minute cab ride tops from the current site to pretty much anywhere someone would want to go downtown? (Note: NNEPRA really wants to move to be on the main line and get rid of the backup moves they have to use to get in and out of PTC.)
 
markhb said:
It would be easier to judge if Google Maps had an updated aerial that showed the new hospital, but if they're talking about the employee lot area and the COVID testing building way down near the bridge I could see it.

Back before the Downeaster got going, but after the subject of extending to Brunswick was brought up, there was a thought of running it along the Union Branch as far as Forest Ave., then along I-295 ( a ROW the state has preserved) to a station basically in the Marginal Way Park & Ride lot, and from there across a new bridge to connect to the Grand Trunk / St. Lawrence & Atlantic to go north. That would not only provide downtown access (although the main driver was visibility for the new service), but it would also eliminate all the grade crossings in the Woodfords area (at the expense of adding new grade crossings of Forest, Preble and Franklin). And that was in an era when Bayside and East Bayside were still somewhere between industrial and awful. Unfortunately, that ship has long-since sailed, especially with the millions that went into the five-mile siding in Cumberland and Yarmouth.
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Here is one to help...

https://satellites.pro/Portland_map.Maine_region.USA#43.647710,-70.281166,17
 
I think the most logical site for a train station is the former Union Station plot. It’s really unfortunate the state wasn’t able to jump on the sale before MaineHealth purchased it. Were they even aware of the sale before it happened? It seems like a huge lost opportunity. Unfortunately MaineDOT is less than transparent on decisions like this… the I-295 routing via the union branch may be ideal to avoid all the grade crossing around woodford’s, but that seems too pie-in-the-sky right now for something that should’ve been underway a long time ago. The cost of such an alignment would be exorbitant. 58 Fore would be a cool spot for a new station but how do you get there? Street-running down Commercial is dead on arrival so that only leaves you with crazy transit pitch options to get there. I think the best bet at this point would be either Mercy (if they’re willing to cut loose a portion of their property) or the jail across the tracks from the old Union Station. But then that opens up a whole new debate of where to relocate that to. I think it would take a grassroots effort of people across the Portland area to really move the needle on a station relocation and unfortunately I don’t see that happening.
 
There’s no reason MMC couldn’t redevelop Union Station Plaza as a mixed-use site with leased space to NNPRA / Amtrak for a new station on site alongside medical offices/hotel/lab/residential/parking. It’s a fairly large site.

ideally, the railroad would be elevated before crossing Congress Street just north of the new station. F-LinetoDudley did provide insights on this idea about two/almost three years ago, when the idea was raised last.
 
GIL said:
There’s no reason MMC couldn’t redevelop Union Station Plaza as a mixed-use site with leased space to NNPRA / Amtrak for a new station on site alongside medical offices/hotel/lab/residential/parking. It’s a fairly large site.
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Sure, it’s possible they could. But it’s a much different situation being a tenant on a portion of MMC’s land than owning it outright. Ideally the state would own the land and make a consolidated regional transportation center for intercity trains and buses with convenient connections to local buses, pedestrians, bikes, and cars. Think South Station but on a much smaller scale. When you’re at the mercy of a private landlord you end up getting something that falls short of the needs of passengers because that isn’t necessarily in their interest. NNEPRA is currently a tenant to Concord Coach at the Portland station and if they end up paying rent to MMC at Union Station plaza, I’m worried it might not be too much different. At least Concord is in the transportation business so their interests align more with NNEPRA than MMC’s.

They would at least be on the mainline which is a huge improvement for passengers north of Portland, but as for a long term solution I think it still falls short.

The TOD is all well and good for any station, but that’s not the primary purpose for something like this and shouldn’t be the goal when MEDOT sets out to relocate the station. The goal is to build a multimodal hub for people who live in and around Portland. It should provide seamless connections for those who arrive by bike, bus, car, or train. I’m skeptical that MMC has those intentions for that property.
 
The stated goal of NNEPRA is rail-focused Downeaster.

From their 2019 Strategic Initiatives:

“NNEPRA is exploring mainline station alternatives which will improve Downeaster connectivity to and within the greater Portland region by reducing overall travel time and decreasing bottlenecks.”

Also listed as a separate initiative was West Falmouth/Exit 53 Station:
“… an additional Downeaster stop in West Falmouth at exit 53, which provides improved connectivity from the I-95 corridor,” where a field of parking and bus co-stationing could be accommodated and still be right on the mainline for efficiency of schedule.
 
BosMaineiac said:
MaineDOT is leading the PTC relocation effort, not NNEPRA. Here’s the link to the final report from 2021 here: https://www.maine.gov/mdot/planning/docs/2021/PTC Study - Final Report 05-10-2021 .pdf

Note that they recommend building a consolidated transportation facility for both intercity buses and trains. They also recommended improving the existing location, but leave the door open to continue studying the issue.
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The study team recommended further evaluation of alternative 8 which would separate intercity busses and trains. From the study:

Alternative 8 provides strong benefits to customer and train movement safety, improves rail operations by being located on the rail mainline thereby eliminating the reverse move, and can accommodate a bypass track and a rail center platform. This alternative also meets required parking demand, , improves mobility with an additional 58 rail riders per day, reduces VMT, VHT, and greenhouse gases, and is located the closest to downtown of any alternative, which slightly increases pedestrian and bicycle trips over Alternative 7 by approximately one percent, or up to 10 trips per day. It provides the maximum opportunity to increase local transit trips due to the proximity to the greatest number of transit lines and provides a direct connect to the Portland Trail system.
 
Tom Nevers said:
The study team recommended further evaluation of alternative 8 which would separate intercity busses and trains. From the study:
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Right, but Section 4 of the report recommends a consolidated facility as the better option. The final recommended alternative is contradictory to this which seems to be because it’s not consistent with what Concord Coach Lines wants to do.

That being said, even if it was solely a train station, you still need multimodal connectivity. And the figures provided in the report show that the station would take up almost half of the Union Station plaza. I’m skeptical that a station like this could come to fruition on a property owned by MMC.
 
There are like six Metro bus lines that stop at/near Union Station Plaza already, a 1200-car garage and it’s no farther from I-95 than Thompson’s Point, and its siting on the mainline offers huge efficiencies. I hope MDOT can see past their highway > arterial > parking lot vision of the world long enough to realize the reasons Maine Central RR built the original station where they did — learning from history. It would be such a catalyst for more dense and walkable development in the St John/Valley Street district.
 
The Cumberland County Jail location would be ideal. Look at that large footprint. Move it to a somewhat dead area, perhaps across next to some oil tanks. And, with a new build it doesn't have to be low-rise. Actually, a hi-rise could be built on the existing property to the back with underground parking. Many county jails in large cities across the country are in hi-rises. The transportation center is a key infrastructure build for Portland. Make it the best it can be. I think we're all tired of seeing failed compromises (Cross Insurance Arena) for Portland/Maine. Either go all-out or not at all.

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Concord is very happy with the facility they have now, which they own, and they aren't going to leave; the instant connection to I-295 is too valuable to them. And they have so taken over the market that consolidating the train station with Greyhound (which currently doesn't have a station building, they're doing a pit stop at Marginal Way as their Portland location) and their one bus a day is of little help. The 1200 car garage isn't open to the public.
 
TC_zoid said:
The Cumberland County Jail location would be ideal. Look at that large footprint. Move it to a somewhat dead area, perhaps across next to some oil tanks. And, with a new build it doesn't have to be low-rise. Actually, a hi-rise could be built on the existing property to the back with underground parking. Many county jails in large cities across the country are in hi-rises. The transportation center is a key infrastructure build for Portland. Make it the best it can be. I think we're all tired of seeing failed compromises (Cross Insurance Arena) for Portland/Maine. Either go all-out or not at all.

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The more I think about it the more I like this spot (although it might be the most difficult). A connection to Fore River Parkway would make it much easier for intercity buses too. You could even extend the up and over to land on the original Union Sta site to connect to Maine Med’s development.

I don’t think the slightly longer detour off 295 (roughly 3 min each way) would make a big difference to Concord. But them owning their own property is certainly a huge factor, for many of the same reasons I think the new PTC shouldn’t be a tenant to a different landlord.
 
Which lines connect to Quebec and Montreal? There's an existing defunct line through Westbrook, Falmouth, and Auburn right?

Remember VIP Charter Busses sought to rezone their lot too. I wonder if they'd move to a consolidated spot eventually also, in addition to municipal busses.
 
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