Proposed watertown ferry

[JeffDowntown]

If a private company wants to do something with their own money that takes 10 cars off the road in favor of sustainable transportation I'm 1000% in favor.

Assuming they are paying fair freight for use of the public docking facilities for commercial purposes (and not looking for a hand out because of taking 10 cars off of the road, or more likely 10 passengers out of the 504 express bus).

Also, need some assurance that they are going to actually play nice by maritime right-of-way rules in the Charles. Even though they are on a schedule, they have to yield to all the sail craft, crew shells and kayaks in the water.

 

[Urban_Hermit]

Also, stopping at CRI and Herter Park just doesn't make sense at all. Like, who are those serving?

I would use this ferry if stopped at Herter Park. Depending on the timing, price, and where it connects to it would be nice to add this to the options for getting around without a car.

 

[HenryAlan]

40 seats is so few, if this ever got momentum i feel like you'd have to watch some boats come and go before you even go on.

It is stupid that Boston doesn't have more ferry/water-focused options. I've used the ferry in NYC a couple times to get around and it was surprisingly fast and well organized. You can even grab a beer from the cafe, but the issue is that you get to wherever you need to go before you can finish your beer!

A river ferry on the Charles is problematic for reasons discussed upthread. There is some potential for a Mystic River service, though. Setting that side, it's not like there aren't several ferries operated on the inner and outer harbor. It's definitely not as significant a thing as it is in NYC, but its' definitely a reasonable option for certain trips. I used the East Boston ferry quite a bit, because it's the easiest way to get across the harbor with a bike.

 

[Stlin]

A river ferry on the Charles is problematic for reasons discussed upthread. There is some potential for a Mystic River service, though. Setting that side, it's not like there aren't several ferries operated on the inner and outer harbor. It's definitely not as significant a thing as it is in NYC, but its' definitely a reasonable option for certain trips. I used the East Boston ferry quite a bit, because it's the easiest way to get across the harbor with a bike.

I agree that there is potential for more routes on the harborside. Given that the privately operated water taxi survives, there's clearly demand for more service than the T boats operate. Plus, the city cruises operated "water bus" from Logan to Long Wharf. Just on this point, I maintain that the T ferry should operate Logan as a regular stop on the East Boston Route, not the $9.75 Hingham/Hull route.

 

[Koopzilla24]

Isn't boat transportation the most expensive to operate per passenger except for some bus service due to the much higher maintenance and labor costs? If that's the case a private company would have to charge an amount unappealing to anyone seeking regular use in order to turn a profit. The $4.25 for the express buses is already too expensive for service provided in my opinion but this ferry would have to cost at least $10/person/trip.

 

[The EGE]

Yes, ferry does tend to have relatively high fixed costs. With decent ridership and relatively fast trips that's not as big of an issue; the MBTA ferry system actually tends to have some of the highest farebox recovery of the various modes. But for a slow, small boat that can make at most 2 trips per rush hour? I think their financials will be somewhere between "ouch" and "yikes".

 

[ritchiew]

Since the heat waves have passed, I've been out in the Esplanade and on the Charles more lately. Just a thought, but part of the reason a ferry service wouldn't work well on the Charles is that Boston and Cambridge are kind of cut off from the water by Storrow and Memorial Drives. The roads have really limited any kind of waterfront destinations. They make it harder to actually get to the water. A spot like the the BU dock should be a 2-3 minute walk to Kenmore Square, but instead it would be like getting dropped off on the side of the highway. Some of the docks aren't at the pedestrian bridges, which adds some unpleasant time to any water commute. Kendall to the water is a total mess for pedestrians because of Memorial swinging out into the river. Like I said before, the walk along Nashua Street from the water to North Station is very doable, but it's not nice, and feels very cut off from the city even when you're right downtown.

There is some alternate history where the river roads weren't built. The garages along Back Street became restaurants, like a Newbury Street right on the river. Land directly connected to the park and river wouldn't have been used for surface parking. Who knows, maybe during a tech boom, Microsoft built a dock right at their offices as a perk for employees. There would have been a lot more stuff along the river and with better connections to the rest of the city. Ferries might have made more sense in that case.

 

[shmessy]

A river ferry on the Charles is problematic for reasons discussed upthread. There is some potential for a Mystic River service, though. Setting that side, it's not like there aren't several ferries operated on the inner and outer harbor. It's definitely not as significant a thing as it is in NYC, but its' definitely a reasonable option for certain trips. I used the East Boston ferry quite a bit, because it's the easiest way to get across the harbor with a bike.

Which is why it would be a natural if/when the Kraft Stadium exists with the Revs and (inevitably, because it makes too much sense - sorry Mayor Wu) the NWSL team that they blare Proud Mary as the pump up music before home games in the future. That stadium would rock.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Which is why it would be a natural if/when the Kraft Stadium exists with the Revs and (inevitably, because it makes too much sense - sorry Mayor Wu) the NWSL team that they blare Proud Mary as the pump up music before home games in the future. That stadium would rock.

Encore already has their own private water shuttle service to the casino:

 

[thepixelnation]

Encore already has their own private water shuttle service to the casino:
View attachment 57021

I will say that is the smallest ferry I think I have seen. More of a water taxi if anything.

 

[JeffDowntown]

I will say that is the smallest ferry I think I have seen. More of a water taxi if anything.

Encore billed them as custom motor yachts when they were built (Encore PR):

"The cost to build the three boats is approximately $3 million and will be privately funded by Encore with no public funding or taxpayer funds. The Encore Boston Harbor Water Shuttle will run 365 days a year throughout the day and evening with planned stops at the Seaport District and Financial District.

“The Encore Water Shuttle could revolutionize the use of Boston Harbor as a preferred and popular commuter pathway,” said Robert DeSalvio, President of Encore Boston Harbor. “Imagine boarding a shuttle at the Seaport and Financial Districts in Boston and docking at our resort in Everett in 20 minutes, rain or shine, with a guarantee of no traffic or parking issues. We’re turning a normally stressful and frustrating commute into a luxurious and relaxing experience.”

Each cabin features plush UltraLeather seating, gloss-varnished teak wood and a below-deck salon seating area with large hull windows and overhead skylight. The vessels are equipped with state-of-the-art climate control and joystick steering systems as well as a computerized gyro stabilizer for smooth sailing in choppy conditions.

 

[thepixelnation]

with no public funding or taxpayer funds

that poor little casino had to buy 3 $1m pleasure yachts all on their own?

“The Encore Water Shuttle could revolutionize the use of Boston Harbor as a preferred and popular commuter pathway,” said Robert DeSalvio, President of Encore Boston Harbor. “Imagine boarding a shuttle at the Seaport and Financial Districts in Boston and docking at our resort in Everett in 20 minutes, rain or shine, with a guarantee of no traffic or parking issues. We’re turning a normally stressful and frustrating commute into a luxurious and relaxing experience.”

I'm not too sure about revolutionizing the use of Boston Harbor with a deluxe yacht that carries less people than the 40 that fit in a Boston Water Taxi. But I'm also not expecting groundbreaking moves from a casino for public transit. I would be very happy with a stadium ferry as well – I've seen them at work in SF and they're such a fun time.

 

[shmessy]

Encore already has their own private water shuttle service to the casino:
View attachment 57021

.
That's a cute little dinghy, but won't fill the bill for the soccer stadium and the expansive waterfront development. More (and larger than that) will be needed.

.

 

[JeffDowntown]

View attachment 57029
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That's a cute little dinghy, but won't fill the bill for the soccer stadium and the expansive waterfront development. More (and larger than that) will be needed.

.

Understood -- just pointing out that the current large business in the area has already demonstrated the viability of ferry service from downtown/seaport to the location.

It was also privately financed to get patrons to their venue (looking at you Bob Kraft)!

 

[shmessy]

Understood -- just pointing out that the current large business in the area has already demonstrated the viability of ferry service from downtown/seaport to the location.

It was also privately financed to get patrons to their venue (looking at you Bob Kraft)!

Your bolded part is ironic. Those 3 little taxis are not "mass" transit. That's a joke. And the casino is open 24/7. Not just game days. The comparison isn't exactly apples to apples.

Regarding soccer stadiums, the only taxpayer financing is the $50 million for Wu's badly located NWSL White Stadium in Franklin Park. Kraft's in Everett involves no public financing AND Kraft would pay $100 million to environmentally decontaminated the site. Who prefers the taxpayers to foot that hundred million bucks?

Kraft is alot of things, some good some bad - - but there is no major American sports owner in the past 40 years who has put out more of his own money to a ratio of least public money than Robert Kraft. Perhaps some people should quit looking the gift horse in the mouth.

 

[TheRatmeister]

the only taxpayer financing is the $50 million for Wu's badly located NWSL White Stadium in Franklin Park.

How is it any worse than Everett? Both sites would be primarily connected to public transport via a busway that connects to a nearby Orange Line station. That would be SL3X or the 109 to Sullivan in the case of Everett, or the 22 to Jackson Sq in the case of White Stadium.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Your bolded part is ironic. Those 3 little taxis are not "mass" transit. That's a joke. And the casino is open 24/7. Not just game days. The comparison isn't exactly apples to apples.

Regarding soccer stadiums, the only taxpayer financing is the $50 million for Wu's badly located NWSL White Stadium in Franklin Park. Kraft's in Everett involves no public financing AND Kraft would pay $100 million to environmentally decontaminated the site. Who prefers the taxpayers to foot that hundred million bucks?

Kraft is alot of things, some good some bad - - but there is no major American sports owner in the past 40 years who has put out more of his own money to a ratio of least public money than Robert Kraft. Perhaps some people should quit looking the gift horse in the mouth.

Ferries for game day are not mass transit either -- they are team owner subsidies.

 

[shmessy]

Ferries for game day are not mass transit either -- they are team owner subsidies.

Look at the NET benefits to the Commonwealth and the taxpayers of the project. And please show one area so far where Kraft is getting subsidies for this plan. He may after all, but what is the net? Would any smart investor give $1 of subsidy to receive $5 of revenue for a $4 net? Or would the investor complain about the $1 and leave the $4 opportunity for someone else to gladly swoop in?

Here is what is certain. The $50 million taxpayer cost for White Stadium in Franklin park will not net nearly as big a reward.

The ferries would not be just for game days but for the massive development - which is financial winner for Everett and the state compared to what is there now. And who is assuming Kraft isn't going to underwrite that cost? He already is going to underwrite the state's $100 million responsibility to clean up the environmental mess there. Would we rather Healy raise taxes for that $100 million?

You speak about Kraft as if he is the type of NFL owner (i.e. EVERY OTHERE INDIVIDUAL NFL OWNER) who charges PSLs and has the municipalities pay for his stadiums.

The fundamental truth is that the guy is a unicorn, and when he offers up $100 million to clean up that land and build a top flight stadium and entertainment district on the freaking Mystic River (talk about turning an ugly duckling into a swan) most sensible people wouldn't look that gift horse in the mouth. But it's Massachusetts, so..........

 

[shmessy]

How is it any worse than Everett? Both sites would be primarily connected to public transport via a busway that connects to a nearby Orange Line station. That would be SL3X or the 109 to Sullivan in the case of Everett, or the 22 to Jackson Sq in the case of White Stadium.

Nowhere near as many thousands of people will want to go to freaking Franklin Park for a game as will want to go to the Mystic River Entertainment Zone port 365 days per year. There won't be nearly the thousands and thousands of residential units built in Franklin Park around White Stadium as would be built around Kraft Stadium on the Mystic River.

The development potentials are nowhere near comparable. We're talking a gorilla versus an ant.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Look at the NET benefits to the Commonwealth and the taxpayers of the project. And please show one area so far where Kraft is getting subsidies for this plan. He may after all, but what is the net? Would any smart investor give $1 of subsidy to receive $5 of revenue for a $4 net? Or would the investor complain about the $1 and leave the $4 opportunity for someone else to gladly swoop in?

Here is what is certain. The $50 million taxpayer cost for White Stadium in Franklin park will not net nearly as big a reward.

The ferries would not be just for game days but for the massive development - which is financial winner for Everett and the state compared to what is there now. And who is assuming Kraft isn't going to underwrite that cost? He already is going to underwrite the state's $100 million responsibility to clean up the environmental mess there. Would we rather Healy raise taxes for that $100 million?

You speak about Kraft as if he is the type of NFL owner (i.e. EVERY OTHERE INDIVIDUAL NFL OWNER) who charges PSLs and has the municipalities pay for his stadiums.

The fundamental truth is that the guy is a unicorn, and when he offers up $100 million to clean up that land and build a top flight stadium and entertainment district on the freaking Mystic River (talk about turning an ugly duckling into a swan) most sensible people wouldn't look that gift horse in the mouth. But it's Massachusetts, so..........

Ferries do not support massive development. They are slow and capacity limited. Ferries, at best, provide a miniscule capacity boost.

Heavy Rail supports massive development. That is what the Everett Corridor really needs for the proposed level of development. We are just too cheap to provide it. Everything else being propose is a band aid when a tourniquet is needed.

One Red Line trainset can carry more passengers than all the Hull ferries deployed in a day.