Providence developments

Yes this is a private development by Providence based and world renowned Gilbane Development Corp. Brown is not involved with this project and has their own plans for new student housing on College Hill. This project will be fully taxable. Nearby neighbors fear that Brown may someday take ownership of the building if it is indeed built. Brown is of course tax exempt and does make annual payments to the city in lieu of taxes totaling almost $4mil. In contrast, Yale U in New Haven, CT pay much more to their host city. The City of Providence is trying to get them and other tax exempt institutions to pay more in order to avoid bankruptcy.
 
I still think there should be a pretty compelling reason before you take down 9 old buildings in a prosperous mixed residential-commercial district. I don't see such a reason here.
 
^ You would subject any urban change to the kind of scrutiny courts reserve for overcoming charges of discrimination against protected classes of people? What kind of compelling reasons are we talking about? Compelling reasons beyond owning the property, fitting within zoning regulations, obtaining neighborhood approval, not interfering with any historic property designations, adding density and vitality to the neighborhood and potential customers within walking distance of many local businesses as well as additional tax revenue?

Ron, your position here strikes me as nothing more than "change is bad".
 
^ You would subject any urban change to the kind of scrutiny courts reserve for overcoming charges of discrimination against protected classes of people? What kind of compelling reasons are we talking about? Compelling reasons beyond owning the property, fitting within zoning regulations, obtaining neighborhood approval, not interfering with any historic property designations, adding density and vitality to the neighborhood and potential customers within walking distance of many local businesses as well as additional tax revenue?

Ron, your position here strikes me as nothing more than "change is bad".

A.) czsz: out of curiosity, are you an attorney? If so, do you practice in the development field?

B.) I think you make excellent points, czsz, and surely those are indeed compelling reasons to approve this structure (and likely precisely the reasons for which it will be approved). However, I don't think the views expressed by Ron are anti-change, and I tend to agree with him. I want to reiterate that I like the design of this structure, and it may be the exception to the general rule that tearing down blocks of pre-existing and apparently well-functioning urbanism is a terrible idea, but I can't help thinking an area is what it "is" because of the pre-existing buildings, and replacing them (rather than adding to them, in a more appropriate infill area like a parking lot) changes the area, potentially for the worse. Urban renewal was all about the sort of plan in place here--and it is widely recognized to have failed, terribly. I think that's where Ron's concerns are coming from. It happened in Portland, San Francisco, St. Louis, NYC, Boston, and anywhere else you can think of. The dead-zones of asphalt usually stem from a plan like that in play here. Structures torn down, nothing ever built because of market volatility, and the result is anti-urban. I'm not saying that'll happen here, hopefully it won't. But it could, and it has happened enough times before to make Ron's concerns well justified in my mind. Then again, you raise the important points of any counterargument, which illustrates precisely why we need to revamp zoning in this country, and the process which underlies its adoption, entirely. A more comprehensive approach to prescribing community defined urbanism would be preferable, in my opinion.

Just trying to add to the dialogue here, not stir anything up.
 
I still think there should be a pretty compelling reason before you take down 9 old buildings in a prosperous mixed residential-commercial district. I don't see such a reason here.

I agree in principal and personally, but I doubt Ron was trying to express this sentiment as a legal argument. I certainly would not.

My objection--along with those expressed by Patrick--is that this building, while reasonably attractive, just seems very generic compared to what exists now. The proposed building looks too much like the Portwalk currently under construction in Portsmouth, NH. Unlike vibrant Thayer St, the Portwalk--which I think is equally generic--is being built on the former site of a hideous mall and parking lot that was the result of the kind of mass demolition now proposed for the Thayer block.

1331737223_f50d.jpg

The proposed building at 357 Thayer St in Providence

46026_Portwalk%20Residences%202-2_opt.jpg

The Portwalk buildings currently under construction in the old North End of Portsmouth, NH

Both projects exemplify the sort of pseudo-historicist architecture now in vogue in "colonial seaports" like Portsmouth and Providence. The designs are neither historically accurate nor particularly contextual, which I think gives them a pretty generic feeling. Still, they're not offensive, people seem to like them, and they're far from the worst things being built out there. But looking at the existing buildings of Thayer St in Providence and the old (and largely demolished) North End in Portsmouth shows that they're pretty different contexts.

Portsmouth's North End is largely a collection of parking lots with fairly large, masonry-clad buildings along Hanover St (including the relatively recent additions of a large parking garage, a Hilton hotel, and a particularly contextual but not faux-historicist building at the intersection with Market St). The only small, wood-framed buildings are a collection of colonial-era houses saved during the wholesale demolition of the North End under urban renewal, which are now clustered along Deer & High St, now called the Hill. Even along Deer St, the newer wood-clad buildings provide a fairly uniform face to the street, rather than a collection of smaller, individual buildings. In that context, the large--if somewhat uninspiring--buildings of the Portwalk fit in fairly well and are a huge improvement over the parking lots they're replacing.

Thayer St, on the other hand, is an intact, densely built-up urban block, and it is surrounded by similar blocks made up of several 19th and early 20th century buildings. Almost none of the blocks have a single building fronting Thayer for the entire length, and most are a mix of wood and masonry buildings. Since they are made up of smaller buildings, they feature many entrances along Thayer and side streets, as Patrick noted. The proposed building defies all of that context with a single building taking up nearly the entire block, creating a few major public entrances, internalizing the entrance to residences on the block; and with its railings, turret and other pseudo-Victorian details it cheaply and selectively, but inaccurately mimics some of its neighbors.

This seems like an example of replacing real history and real context with stage dressing. While the new building will be larger, with its centralized entrances, over-scaled details, and mid-block parking access, I doubt it will feel more urban or provide more interest to the street than simply renovating the existing buildings would. I'm not against change or increased urbanity, just against change that replaces unique character and successful blocks with generic replacements. If we want cities to remain interesting and vibrant, we can't let them feel as interchangeable and bland--albeit denser and more walkable--as the suburbs around them.
 
Great post FrankLloydMike! When I first looked at the rendering of that Portsmouth, NH building I immediately thought of the Providence Place Mall which looks somewhat similar. The building on the corner of Thayer & Eucliud where this project may go is commercial and everthing else off Thayer St is residential. It's a pretty small and dense street with terrible parking. Almost all the houses on this block have driveways. This project extends over to the next block which is Meeting St where there is a restaurant (Zenobia-Hookah bar) which will probably have to go alond with more houses. Some of the commercial buildings @ Meeting & Thayer Sts apparently will be saved. I expect opposition from the

http://collegehillneighborhoodassociation.org/
 
I'm still torn on this one. I think the developer's rendering was careless (although I don't have a better solution) as it appears, at first, to be set mostly along Thayer Street. That's not the case. The rounded corner is actually the intersection of Thayer and Euclid and the length of the building in the rendering is along Euclid. Here's a similar angle from Streetview. As you can see, the only building destroyed on that front is the brown structure which really is an eyesore. The rest of the Thayer buildings will remain (you can see the building with the strange roof in both the rendering and goolge maps).

It was a BIG relief when I realized that I was looking at the rendering wrong.

However, there are some pretty nice old structures on the block that will face the wrecking ball. Frankly, I don't want to see them go. A smaller scale building to take the place of the eye sore on the corner of Euclid and Thayer would be ideal. I am not thrilled with the proposed building and find it to be a bit generic. I'd still support it if it didn't mean knocking down some nice older homes, though.

As far as the "scale of the neighborhood" argument? Lame. Just look across the street from the proposed site, and you see this monstrosity. This view is looking on from the proposal site to the opposite side of the intersection. Two blocks further down Thayer and you have this. I'm not buying that. But some of those houses are worth saving. Maybe it's nostalgia (I lived 2 blocks from this for years), but I have a tough time supporting something so generic at this site if the cost is a number of nice older buildings.

*edit*
According to the rendering it looks like they'll be repaving Thayer and Euclid with glass or ice.
 
When I first looked at the rendering of that Portsmouth, NH building I immediately thought of the Providence Place Mall which looks somewhat similar. The building on the corner of Thayer & Eucliud where this project may go is commercial and everthing else off Thayer St is residential. It's a pretty small and dense street with terrible parking. Almost all the houses on this block have driveways. This project extends over to the next block which is Meeting St where there is a restaurant (Zenobia-Hookah bar) which will probably have to go alond with more houses.

OL DONKLE said: NOT tearsIn dOwn WELLINGTON ROOM in PoRTsMoTh pLaCes. so. OK HAVING plAces for kissykissieGIRLFIEND DINNERS!!!!!
 
Your telling me they couldn't find another spot in Providence to build this McMansion of mixed development? Thayer St. in Providence is probably the best area with urban character and pedestrian foot/bike traffic besides Federal Hill in the city of Providence.
 
^ "Couldn't they find a better place?" is probably the best argument against it. I said earlier I'd prefer to see it plugging a parking lot along the river. Unfortunately, waiting in line for the next available open space is not how urban development works, which is why Boston has to worry about historic preservation while most of the Seaport is still an asphalt wasteland.

Lrfox does a good job showing why so many of the concerns here are off base - the building just does not take up a full block of Thayer, and, even if it did, it would be far from grossly out of scale.

Is this incredibly special architecture? No. You are not going to get that in almost any urban redevelopment in New England, especially where people are so touchy about the "character of the neighborhood" - including people on this forum, whom I'm sure would be even less thrilled were some Gehry squiggle proposed for this site. But neither is the stuff it's replacing incredibly special architecture. If anything, a generic house with a lawn is more out of character on this part of Thayer Street than what's going to replace it.

Oh, Patrick - I'm not technically a lawyer, although I do work in law (passed the bar exam but waiting on one signature before I can submit my admission papers...) I didn't think the point Ron was articulating was necessarily legal, but he was setting up a sort of rule or norm for urban redevelopment that I thought ought to be put into perspective by noting that we use similar language in discrimination cases (and cases involving eminent domain, which development within the boundaries of private property without state involvement doesn't rise to - so under Ron's rule, you'd effectively have to deal with the same arguments against any redevelopment that one faces now for eminent domain).
 
Your telling me they couldn't find another spot in Providence to build this McMansion of mixed development? Thayer St. in Providence is probably the best area with urban character and pedestrian foot/bike traffic besides Federal Hill in the city of Providence.

The fact that the area has a nice urban scale and good foot traffic is likely what makes this location more appealing to the developers than, say, the Jewelry District, or along the parking lot triangle downtown bounded by Pine, Dorrance and Dyer (which is where I'd love to see something like this).

Furthermore, in spite of the mediocre architecture, the building will be far better from an urban standpoint for that particular corner of Thayer and Euclid (again, it's a semi-blighted house on the corner now) while keeping the other buildings on that block of Thayer as-is. I'd go even further and say that the building makes Euclid (a side street) even more urban along that stretch.

The legitimate complaint is the destruction of a few significant older houses. That's a tough one to swallow. But the building, generic architecture and all, only serves to make that corner more urban if anything.

*edit*
In other news, the Arcade is set to get a makeover which will include first floor retail and lofts on the higher floors. The plan seems to target young professionals and small business owners. I like it. You can read more about it here.
 
Speaking of those empty lots downtown, JWU is working on expanding their campus there including some new tech and business buildings along Friendship, Pine and Chestnut streets including some old I-195 land.

jwupvd.jpg


From the looks of the photo, it appears that they're going to extend Friend Street a few more blocks.

Read more here.
 
I wasn't making a legal argument, just saying that I didn't regard this proposed development as fixing anything that was currently broken in that neighborhood.

Ultimately this is up to the folks of College Hill (and Providence more generally) to decide, not interlopers like me from another state. But I would not favorably regard a proposal to tear down this many occupied houses in Cambridge or Somerville to put up a big brick student residence for Harvard or Tufts.

Will the new development have as much first-floor retail space available as the buildings that it would replace?
 
^ "Couldn't they find a better place?" is probably the best argument against it. I said earlier I'd prefer to see it plugging a parking lot along the river. Unfortunately, waiting in line for the next available open space is not how urban development works, which is why Boston has to worry about historic preservation while most of the Seaport is still an asphalt wasteland.

Lrfox does a good job showing why so many of the concerns here are off base - the building just does not take up a full block of Thayer, and, even if it did, it would be far from grossly out of scale.

Is this incredibly special architecture? No. You are not going to get that in almost any urban redevelopment in New England, especially where people are so touchy about the "character of the neighborhood" - including people on this forum, whom I'm sure would be even less thrilled were some Gehry squiggle proposed for this site. But neither is the stuff it's replacing incredibly special architecture. If anything, a generic house with a lawn is more out of character on this part of Thayer Street than what's going to replace it.

Oh, Patrick - I'm not technically a lawyer, although I do work in law (passed the bar exam but waiting on one signature before I can submit my admission papers...) I didn't think the point Ron was articulating was necessarily legal, but he was setting up a sort of rule or norm for urban redevelopment that I thought ought to be put into perspective by noting that we use similar language in discrimination cases (and cases involving eminent domain, which development within the boundaries of private property without state involvement doesn't rise to - so under Ron's rule, you'd effectively have to deal with the same arguments against any redevelopment that one faces now for eminent domain).

Interesting. Congrats on passing the bar. Do you work in Boston/MA, and if so, is it in the real estate or land use field? I’m a land use attorney and a cousin of mine is a real estate atty in Boston. Small legal world in these areas. Where did you go to school?

P.S. -- I saw your point with the legal standard, but it sparked my curiosity about your background (I like to know who I'm having a discussion with). I think your arguments here are all good, but I just feel bad that sometimes, as LRFox said, it is the special character that draws development to a certain place (while there are parking areas in other less special places) yet the new development there runs the risk of ruining, ironically, exactly what prompted the investment in the first place. I guess that's a constant balancing act in any land devleopment situation, though. In the end, I guess we should all just be happy that there is continuing interest in this really cool/funky stretch of a neighborhood (one of my favorite in New England). Unfortunately, when my wife and I were in Prov last spring, we stayed in a sort of less active (if more urban looking) section of town. If anyone is familiar with the magazine “Culture” it has a whole page and maybe more on Providence in the current edition, entitled “Urban Excursion” wherein it discusses local farmers markets and water fire etc. The funny thing is that the article notes the city’s “small” size as one of its attractions and a reason underlying its ability to hold true to the farm-to-table motto of buy/eat local. Size is relative, I suppose, and this is nowhere more evident than to a Mainer living just north of Southern New England (where our “City” is the size of a So. NE “town.” I was flying into Charlotte the other day, and said aloud “what a small city” (it really is, in terms of a downtown, and one sees this if they’ve ever flown over NYC, which stretches for hundreds of miles in every direction). The guy in front of me turned around and groaned and kept looking at me for the rest of the time taxiing in. Good thing he didn’t ask where I was from. Now I am rambling (characteristic).
 
Will the new development have as much first-floor retail space available as the buildings that it would replace?

Not 100% sure. The building will remove 3 storefronts (Ben and Jerry's, a hooka bar/restaurant, and a hair salon). 2 of those storefronts are on Meeting Street and one is on Euclid. None of those storefronts face Thayer Street. Based on the rendering, it adds a fairly prominent storefront (which is so generic it inevitably looks like a Walgreens or Rite Aid) right on the corner of Thayer and Euclid which is actually an improvement over the current intersection. There looks to be room for two storefronts on that corner, but I can't tell for sure. The rendering doesn't really show far beyond that intersection, nor does it show the Meeting Street side or the Brook Street side which I hope aren't blank walls and/or parking.

Again, I love what it does for that corner of Thayer and Euclid. The rest? Not so much. I'd like to see more renderings to see if they sway me one way or another.
 
Knowing that the long side of the building in the rendering faces Euclid does make it much less objectionable to me. I still think it's generic looking, and I still question the idea of replacing an intact block of mostly successful (and fairly easily adaptable) buildings almost entirely with a superblock, especially given that posters here seem to think that the only other superblocks in the area are widely disliked. At least, though, it preserves most of the eclecticism along Thayer St.

Will the new development have as much first-floor retail space available as the buildings that it would replace?

No. As you can see from the plan below, there is only space for one, small retail shop. The good news, at least, is that it's far too small for a Walgreens or Rite-Aid. If they were willing to move the resident entrance to Euclid and give the leasing office a less prominent spot, there could be space for a second small retail spot, but I'm not sure what that would do to their overall design.

1331737229_4aab.jpg
 
That overhead shot has me leaning more towards "no". It would create a super block and there's not enough retail. This isn't a section of town that's in need of more people on the street. While I don't oppose more residences in the area, I don't want them like this.

Even if that leasing office could eventually become an additional retail space (it would be perfect for a coffee counter accessible from both the street and the interior of the building), I still don't like it.
 
That overhead shot has me leaning more towards "no". It would create a super block and there's not enough retail. This isn't a section of town that's in need of more people on the street. While I don't oppose more residences in the area, I don't want them like this.

Even if that leasing office could eventually become an additional retail space (it would be perfect for a coffee counter accessible from both the street and the interior of the building), I still don't like it.

Even though it looks like some of the existing buildings on side streets would be nicer if they were renovated, they at least lend some life to those street fronts. With porches, small front years and especially front doors, the streets seem to have a liveliness that successful residential streets should. Aside from the corner of Euclid and Thayer, this project will create a bland facade--whether you like the architecture or not, there will be no activity--across the entire block. I'd like to see developers and architects be a bit more inventive, and provide apartments with direct access to the street, at least on the first floor, in projects like this.
 
Speaking of those empty lots downtown, JWU is working on expanding their campus there including some new tech and business buildings along Friendship, Pine and Chestnut streets including some old I-195 land.

jwupvd.jpg


From the looks of the photo, it appears that they're going to extend Friend Street a few more blocks.

Read more here.

J & W has been given first rights to land overlooking Route 95 where the former interchange was. They are proposing two buildings approx 8-15 stories each. Not sure of the particular purpose of each, but at least one will be a dorm.
 

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