Providence developments

[kmp1284]

Right.. Intelligent people only read a little bit of something, then stop, and then write a response. That way theyre sure to miss the entire point and respond with nonsense. Got it.

So anyways here was where I was going to try to ask again what I was asking in the first place, but I dont even care about the answer in the first place, and Im not doing this... So yea.

You began this whole thing with the bogus assertion that Massachusetts is irreparably corrupt then cited Rhode Island as a solution(a non-viable solution to a made-up problem). That says to me as the reader that you might not know what you're talking about and that there isn't much point in continuing on because other things are probably going to be off base.

 

[stick n move]

Solution.... lol uh wt..nvm Yes, just fkn yes.

Anyways heres an u/c project and a couple proposals.

91 Chestnut Street

“Upcoming 6-story residential apartment building located at the junction of Downtown Providence and the city's Innovation and Design District.”
https://www.bldup.com/projects/chestnut-commons


New proposal for 210 West Exchange Street

http://www.gcpvd.org/2019/03/27/new-proposal-for-210-west-exchange-street/

WALDORF CAPITAL MANAGEMENT, LLC AND MARSHALL PROPERTIES – AGENDA ITEM 12

http://www.gcpvd.org/2019/03/27/i-195-redevelopment-district-commission-meeting-march-27-2019/

Brown University presents plans for their new Performing Arts Center

http://www.gcpvd.org/2019/02/26/brown-university-presents-plans-for-their-new-performing-arts-center/

 

[jklo]

Southern NH - especially near the coast - is a hotspot for startups, especially bio and adtech. Lots of MA spillover. We should be asking, why hasn't there been similar spillover in Providence County?

A couple companies opened up shop in Southern NH, more really financial than anything else, because of the lack of an income tax. That's the only reason really. Companies love Boston because of it's endless supply of cheap exploitable College Kids; there really isn't any other city in New England that can provide that.

Now a far amount of people moved to Southern NH as well, because of the cheaper housing and also because of the income tax, and could get away with it because they had a job in the MA burbs like Burlington or Woburn. Which of course now looks like a mistake.

 

[cubalibre]

Love the Performing Arts Center proposal, granted they use some materials that can withstand a few decades of New England weather.

 

[Poolio]

Providence really has an amazing opportunity with the recent relocation of I-195. This should be for them what the Big Dig was for Boston... the removal of a hulking elevated highway and its associated mess of ramps to reunite two previously disconnected parts of the city. We're talking a dozen or more blocks here, countless acres of new cityscape. It's practically a blank slate.

Filling it in will knit the downtown back together, and bring massive opportunity to the forlorn Jewelry District. Areas that were the hinterlands before, cowering in the shadow of an elevated highway less than 10 years ago, are now prime real estate. As cool as it would be for the Hope Point tower to come to fruition, I don't think it's necessary. Just filling in the space with five story buildings would make Providence feel twice as big, opening up new areas and bringing foot traffic to previously isolated areas.

I look forward to seeing it all unfold. I think that keeping the scale of the development small will be key. Hopefully they can avoid the massive block-sized developments that we saw quickly fill in Bulfinch Triangle.

 

[DBM]

Providence really has an amazing opportunity with the recent relocation of I-195. This should be for them what the Big Dig was for Boston... the removal of a hulking elevated highway and its associated mess of ramps to reunite two previously disconnected parts of the city. We're talking a dozen or more blocks here, countless acres of new cityscape. It's practically a blank slate.

Filling it in will knit the downtown back together, and bring massive opportunity to the forlorn Jewelry District. Areas that were the hinterlands before, cowering in the shadow of an elevated highway less than 10 years ago, are now prime real estate. As cool as it would be for the Hope Point tower to come to fruition, I don't think it's necessary. Just filling in the space with five story buildings would make Providence feel twice as big, opening up new areas and bringing foot traffic to previously isolated areas.

I look forward to seeing it all unfold. I think that keeping the scale of the development small will be key. Hopefully they can avoid the massive block-sized developments that we saw quickly fill in Bulfinch Triangle.

Your optimism is laudable and I hope it all comes to pass like you say. However, consider all the surface parking lots pockmarking the prime Downtown core. I count at least a dozen from a quick Google maps survey. Consider:

1.) These surface lots are dead prime Downtown core.
2.) Therefore they would command the highest rents if they were developed into office, retail, residential, hotel, what have you.
3.) Yet they still sit fallow.
4.) Therefore developers have concluded they still aren't worth the risk.
5.) Therefore why would developers bother with the vacant lots opened up by the I-195 realignment, in the Jewelry District, given how the rents those redeveloped parcels would command would be less than the parking lots in the prime Downtown core?

The only potentially hidden subtexts to this that I can foresee is that:

1.) All those surface parking lots in the prime Downtown core are somehow encumbered with terrible handicaps--subsurface toxic sediments, etc.--that make them far less appealing than it would appear superficially, and

2.) Providence development officials would have to--or perhaps already are?-- tip(ping) the scales in favor of giving development prioritization to those newly opened-up Jewelry District parcels--despite the fact that, again, compared to the prime Downtown surface parking lots--they couldn't command as much rent, therefore the buildings built on them wouldn't be as sleek/competitive, therefore they'd be worth less, therefore they'd pay less property taxes, therefore poor policy.

Neither 1.) nor 2.) sounds good to me....

 

[Poolio]

A sobering reality check perhaps, but I do tend to towards optimism. Whether the city is able to capitalize on the opportunity remains to be seen, but the opportunity is there nonetheless.

My optimism extends from the progress already made in a relatively short time. Wexford, South St Landing, the new research building at JWU; Aloft and Chestnut Commons pending soon; all those proposals for parcel 28; the park, the pedestrian bridge. It feels like there's some momentum now that's been lacking for a while.

And while all those surface lots are damning, we are seeing some progress in the downtown core as well with Edge College Hill, Providence Station Commons, Homewood Suites, the Residence Inn over on Fountain St.

The architecture is mostly banal, and the scale modest. But it is this modesty of scale that leads me to think this can be sustainable. Smaller cheaper developments are easier to get off the ground, less of a risk, and feed into that momentum to encourage further investment. And for a beleaguered and underachieving city like Providence, a blank slate and new branding does feel like a shot of optimism.

 

[Hubman]

If they fill the entire empty Iway land with good density and uses they effectively double the size of Providence's CBD.

I'm pretty optimistic. It'll take time, but staggering the development can be good.

 

[stick n move]

Your optimism is laudable and I hope it all comes to pass like you say. However, consider all the surface parking lots pockmarking the prime Downtown core. I count at least a dozen from a quick Google maps survey. Consider:

1.) These surface lots are dead prime Downtown core.
2.) Therefore they would command the highest rents if they were developed into office, retail, residential, hotel, what have you.
3.) Yet they still sit fallow.
4.) Therefore developers have concluded they still aren't worth the risk.
5.) Therefore why would developers bother with the vacant lots opened up by the I-195 realignment, in the Jewelry District, given how the rents those redeveloped parcels would command would be less than the parking lots in the prime Downtown core?

The only potentially hidden subtexts to this that I can foresee is that:

1.) All those surface parking lots in the prime Downtown core are somehow encumbered with terrible handicaps--subsurface toxic sediments, etc.--that make them far less appealing than it would appear superficially, and

2.) Providence development officials would have to--or perhaps already are?-- tip(ping) the scales in favor of giving development prioritization to those newly opened-up Jewelry District parcels--despite the fact that, again, compared to the prime Downtown surface parking lots--they couldn't command as much rent, therefore the buildings built on them wouldn't be as sleek/competitive, therefore they'd be worth less, therefore they'd pay less property taxes, therefore poor policy.

Neither 1.) nor 2.) sounds good to me....

Theres actually a bunch of new proposals for the i95 lots though. Theyre low rises. Ill go find em, get em gathered up, and then post them in a bit. Im not sure what the hold up had been, but theres a bunch in the pipeline now. If I remember correctly they even named/created a new district, kind of like assembly, or it may be from what was there before 95 was built, I cant remember right now, but Ill go find them and post em soon.

 

[stick n move]

-Wait I had posted one of the 195 proposals already in post 437 above in the 3rd link.
http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=345720&postcount=437

That third render is one of the projects and the link has more. Theres more projects planned outside of these specific parcels too for the 195 area. These are proposals for the 195 corridor though that were posted above the performing arts building that you guys were distracted by. Ill still find more though as this is not everything either.

Heres the 195 proposals:
http://www.gcpvd.org/2019/03/27/i-195-redevelopment-district-commission-meeting-march-27-2019/

...also if you click on (greater city providence) at the top it will go to the home page of the website with all of the Providence development projects/proposals. That 500’ tower is also linked at the bottom of the link above.

 

[Hubman]

DMG has good height but it is unfortunately very wide. The other proposals seem OK.

Google Earth just updated for Providence and you can begin to see some stuff filling in.

The Wexford Building is in as far as I know.

 

[stick n move]

Heres some more for the 195 corridor.

https://pbn.com/2-additional-developers-to-present-plans-for-parcel-28-in-i-195-district/

And a massing model of what it will look like when filled in.

 

[Poolio]

Heres the 195 proposals:
http://www.gcpvd.org/2019/03/27/i-195-redevelopment-district-commission-meeting-march-27-2019/

There are three proposals for Parcel 28 depicted in that link, but you have to click through to see the other 2. Here are the links to all five:

DMG
Exeter
Waldorf
Pennrose
Post Road

Edit: Heh, you beat me to the punch, stick. Yep, those are the other two. Just to be clear though, those are all proposals for the same parcel. I haven't seen that massing model before though.

 

[DBM]

Thanks for posting all of those, Stick.

I'm impressed with how there's just as much density, apparently, for the proposals on the west side of I-95 trench as there is for the ones on the east side, even though the east side is obviously more favored for not being amputated from the downtown core by the I-95 trench.

That said, regarding those west side proposals--will the Federal Hill community to the north go ballistic (or is it already furious?) about them, given the perception that Federal Hill is a special, perhaps vulnerable, cultural district?

Or maybe they're buffered from Federal Hill in a way I can't perceive. It's tough to tell from this northern birds-eye-view vantage point (as impressive as it is, otherwise)...

 

[stick n move]

78 Fountain st has steel up to the first floor now.

https://pbn.com/site-work-for-new-commercial-building-the-nightingale-begins-in-providence/

 

[Lrfox]

^That's actually one of my favorites in PVD right now. Lots of the new hotels and downtown projects are so boring and generic they make the blandest of Seaport boxes look inspiring.

Also kind of wild to look at just how much room for development there is adjacent to downtown Providence. It should be a prerequisite to show that massing model next to a current aerial at any meeting where people are complaining about "overdevelopment" and lack of space in Providence (and there are plenty).

 

[Hubman]

Providence Advocacy Group Produces Plan for "Rapid Rail" between Providence and Davisville:

http://www.growsmartri.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/RI-Rapid-Rail-FINAL.pdf

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Providence Advocacy Group Produces Plan for "Rapid Rail" between Providence and Davisville:

http://www.growsmartri.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/RI-Rapid-Rail-FINAL.pdf

It's basically RER-on-the-T meets RIDOT Intrastate. Nothing controversial there. Instead of a separate report, this should basically be stapled onto the TransitMatters plan since they'd be bootstrapping off a T adoption of those operating practices to get the EMU's and cycling of equipment through Providence that would net them the ability to launch Pawtucket-Wickford/Kingston (a.k.a. the I-295 Fairmount Line) at high initial frequencies. And the T wants nothing to do with south-of-T. F. Green, so whatever gets RIDOT moving faster on the buildout is A-OK up here in Massholia.


Minor quibble/head-scratcher. . .

I don't know what the hell they're saying about MBTA RER being too expensive for them because it "would utilize large eight-car train sets requiring multiple conductors staffing trains to collect fares." Huh??? The very largest single T trainset is one eight-pack to Providence at the height of rush, so I don't know what pretzel logic came up with 8 as a baseline for the whole system over the whole service day. If anything, RER + EMU's makes set lengths shorter overall and more easily adjustable. Besides, if it's RIDOT intrastate they're running their own routes at their own train lengths anyway. And, duh, it's the FRA that mandates conductors because they have supervisory duties; the presence of onboard crew is a feature of the continental RR network. No one can will away conductors. You can try to automate the assistant conductor assignments to a minimum allowable for staffing efficiency, but if the trains get so popular they're stuffed to the gills or require extra cars...you're gonna need more crewmembers. That's not a bad thing if the ratios are in-line.


I also don't think they spent enough fact-gathering time on the blurbs about other corridors, but that's secondary. Other than maybe needing a better proofread for misconceptions like ^^train length^^ under RER, it's a good start for laying out the issues.

 

[DBM]

And the T wants nothing to do with south-of-T. F. Green

I'm confused--you're not saying the T wants to truncate service on the Providence CR line by dropping Wickford Junction as a stop and bring the new terminus up north to TF Green*? Sorry if I'm taking you too literally--surely you mean something else but that's how it reads (to me).

(*Or, the artist formerly known as TF Green now known as Rhode Island International Airport (at one point? except I haven't seen any major signage changes) except the abbreviation is PVD implying it should be called Providence Airport but why don't we just say screw it and rename it Vincent Cianci Airport to cash-in on the biggest branding opportunity still going in lil' ole RI & the Providence Plantations...)

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I'm confused--you're not saying the T wants to truncate service on the Providence CR line by dropping Wickford Junction as a stop and bring the new terminus up north to TF Green*? Sorry if I'm taking you too literally--surely you mean something else but that's how it reads (to me).

(*Or, the artist formerly known as TF Green now known as Rhode Island International Airport (at one point? except I haven't seen any major signage changes) except the abbreviation is PVD implying it should be called Providence Airport but why don't we just say screw it and rename it Vincent Cianci Airport to cash-in on the biggest branding opportunity still going in lil' ole RI & the Providence Plantations...)

Wickford is RIDOT's baby, and they envision it as a linchpin of their various intrastate service patterns once the whole shebang is built out. As it precedes the 'pure' intrastate service that never crosses the MA border, the only schedule you can hang on it right now are these infrequent Providence Line super-extendeds that are too long on-the-clock to run in any quantity. The station itself is also only half-complete and has limited capacity for service; both it and T.F. Green it will eventually get new northbound platforms added to transform them into quad-track stations with 2 side platforms and 2 center Amtrak expresses. There's more track work to do like raising the speed limits on the turnouts the T uses. And RIDOT is set to construct a mid-line layover yard and small maintenance shop at West Davisville to de-clog crowded and rapidly approaching-capacity Pawtucket layover, cut down on the cost-chewing non-revenue miles it currently takes to deadhead an out-of-service train to/from Wickford, and re-prioritize Pawtucket for the Providence Line.

The only reason the T is being dragged into serving these far-flung stops--which may also include rebuilt Kingston before too long--is that they are bound by the Pilgrim Agreement MA signed with RI for out-of-district commuter service. In that agreement (which has been amended a few times now) RI contributes a % ownership stake to the commuter rail fleet--all of it, northside and southside--that auto-scales to service levels, running miles, and duty cycles spent across the border. They also reimburse costs, square staff arrangements for RI-based Keolis staff, adopt all of the T's RR design and accessibility guidelines, coordinate capital spending, allow RIPTA buses to cross the border to South Attleboro, and square all revenue sharing. In return, the T is required to be RIDOT's mercenary operator for all intrastate commuter service, including the to-be services that never touch MA soil like Pawtucket-Westerly, Woonsocket-Wickford, or this Urban Rail service spanning Providence Metro from a few posts up. Those trains will fly under the T logo even though they're out-of-district, because RIDOT's subsidy has already auto-scaled to pay for the equipment.


So...the Pilgrim Agreement is a pretty sprawling and complicated document. But it's also very elastic to future needs because RIDOT doesn't have to beg for the T's mercy to initiate new service; their subsidy snaps up another rung. The T likewise makes pretty good money on the deal taking cash to do someone else's bidding guilt-free (and very often with fewer headaches than dealing with in-district constituencies), netting more buying power with each new fleet procurement because the RIDOT ownership shares keep increasing, and netting a bigger footprint for major initiatives like RER and electrics that would be driven top-down by Providence Line growth. It's also an agreement that MA taxpayers should be happy about, because it's making the agency beneficial revenue.

Overall, the T is very happy with this arrangement. And they'll make more money still when they're running the 'pure' intrastate service. But right now an incomplete Wickford is an awfully long schedule to pick up awfully few people. And it's a strain on limited South Station capacity because of how extremely far it has to go to time itself against terminal district congestion. It is a bona fide ops pain to take a standard Providence Line schedule out that far vs. maybe being able to reset the schedule to cram in another 1 or 2 max-revenue Providence turns. MassDOT had hoped by this point that RI would've been able to stimulate some/any non-embarrassing ridership there to show some results, and show that they could start accelerating their intrastate buildout a little faster. Because the faster it gets built out the sooner the 'pure' intrastate trains can pick up that stop and the T can start pulling back to "right-size" the standard Providence Line schedule at a maximally efficient length and time. Something that they'll have more pressure to do with the new Pawtucket stop being an add to all schedules (and close enough to the border to be a South Attleboro load relief conern), and something they'll definitely need to do for RER which isn't going to play so well with extreme-outlier schedules.

Wickford doesn't project useless over the long-term--it's too early, and the real payoff was always considered very long-term--, but there's no doubt it's underperformed initial expectations by a concerning margin. Nothing in the demographics has shown there's much of a latent Boston commuter audience here that would be taking the cheaper/slower commuter train vs. grabbing a Northeast Regional at Kingston. It's a lot of Providence Metro exploits and converging paths from RIPTA buses. So with the growth small and the ops messy the T is going to want its Providence Line schedule back, truncated at the optimal distance for packing it full of more slots.

Where T.F. Green comes into play is that Amtrak has shown interest in a platform on the middle two tracks for sending some NE Regionals there...something it would have bandwidth for doing since a ConnDOT Shore Line East extension to Mystic and Westerly would allow them to drop those two minor stops completely from the Regional schedule and roll up at Green. That, along with it being a decently-established regional airport with upside, makes a little dilemma about whether to dig in the regular Providence Line schedule at Providence or Green once the intrastate service has taken over Wickford. Also complicating that choice is that Cranston will be an infill between Providence and T.F. Green by this point, and the Olneyville infill that was rejected (uncertainty over 6-10 Connector construction) may be a high-priority re-add. Do those get added to a Providence Line schedule that's terminating @ Green, or are they only handled by the intrastate trains.

Clearly a lot to hash out there. What's fairly certain, though, is that Wickford itself projects too much a square-peg for too much of the foreseeable future on Boston commutes for all that extra running distance to be allowed to chew up the schedule margin. So somewhere in the future when the intrastate service has reached some mutually agreeable stability the Providence Line will need to pull some retreat somewhere closer to Providence.