Questions on the purpose/economics of The Ride

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cbrett

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Why exactly is this a required service when it loses so much money? Is there any real way to make it profitable or at least closer to break even?

Started looking into the service more, and I can't wrap my head around why the T is cutting fares for it. It's not like loosing ridership is costing them thousands more, it would almost seem like a good motivator to consider private options or move to an area better designed for accessibility.


Don't understand why the T is bending over backwards for a service which ultimately has a minimal on the city and economy when it's so cash-strapped to begin with.
 
They have to be compliant with the American's with Disabilities Act or potentially lose federal money and/or face law suits. It sort of is what is it until someone comes up with a better way to give the disabled equal access to public transit.
 
Legal requirement of the ADA. Admittedly, the T goes above and beyond. They are only required to provide service to destinations within three-quarter mile of a bus stop, but they will go out of that area for extra fare.

It's not going to be profitable. The RIDE is an important social service. Having said that, it should be subsidized as an independent entity from the MBTA. For example, rides given for medical purposes can be reimbursed by insurance such as Medicaid. But the T is not allowed to ask for the purpose of the trip. The RIDE ought to be managed separately from the T and provided for as a service to the disabled through funding earmarked specifically to help people with disabilities, and through Medicaid.
 
I agree with Matthew. It's a worthy social service in my opinion, but one that definitely does not equate to the issues of a mass transit agency that makes 1.3 million rides a day. The state and other federal programs should fund it (even if the T operates it, or a private contractor). Although this is one of the points that you make when people say, why can't you privatize the T and have it make money. It is in many ways a social service.

The public service T- Fourth of July, Millions of riders- The T is free.

Private service- Fourth of July, Millions of new riders with limited alternatives- congestion price, peak fares, triple that ticket cost.

Its just a matter of who shoulders the cost- the structure of which is nearly the same in both cases. I don't think this argument is understood by people that yell for privatization for the sake of privatization.

Back to the ride- it couldn't operate as a private option, it's a public service and should be fully offset by state and federal grants plus the nominal fare cost for users that is more designed to prevent abuse rather then fund the system.
 
Does anyone know if the MBTA could drop the ride once all the subway stations/train stations are accessible? All the buses are already accessible, right? Or have the agreed to it in perpetuity?

I'd like to see the ride continued, but I agree with those above who think the money shouldn't come from the MBTA.
 
choo said:
I agree with Matthew. It's a worthy social service in my opinion, but one that definitely does not equate to the issues of a mass transit agency that makes 1.3 million rides a day. The state and other federal programs should fund it (even if the T operates it, or a private contractor). Although this is one of the points that you make when people say, why can't you privatize the T and have it make money. It is in many ways a social service.

The public service T- Fourth of July, Millions of riders- The T is free.

Private service- Fourth of July, Millions of new riders with limited alternatives- congestion price, peak fares, triple that ticket cost.

Its just a matter of who shoulders the cost- the structure of which is nearly the same in both cases. I don't think this argument is understood by people that yell for privatization for the sake of privatization.

Back to the ride- it couldn't operate as a private option, it's a public service and should be fully offset by state and federal grants plus the nominal fare cost for users that is more designed to prevent abuse rather then fund the system.
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The Ride is outsourced already and has been for years. Four separate companies run The RIDE. Each having a different area of the Greater.B.Area.

See this map to see which private company serves what area and bills the MBTA/MASSDOT

http://www.mbta.com/riding_the_t/accessible_services/default.asp?id=7108#rideserv
 
{EDIT}
I found the thread on Railroad.net where we talked about $/ride
And here is the damning chart, that shows that The Ride (Demand Response in the chart) covers less than 5% of its costs via fares.

mbta_cost_recovery.PNG


(so across various systems, ADA-mandated "Demand Response" = "Dial-a-ride" = The Ride)

cbrett said:
Why exactly is this a required service when it loses so much money? Is there any real way to make it profitable or at least closer to break even?
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1) The ADA answer is correct,

2) It is very very far from breakeven (IIRC it has costs to the MBTA of on the order of $10 or $20 per ride, and since fares cover only {EDIT ~5%} it was something like a $10 to $20 loss *per ride*

3) But on twitter today, the news is that many "big city" transit agencies have been able to slash their ADA service losses by giving their ADA customers unlimited free passes.

Here's the exchange about NY MTA head Prendergast testifying in Illinois about regional transit:
Yonah Freemark ‏@yfreemark
Interesting from Prendergast: Give ADA riders free transit passes and they're less likely to use dial-a-ride. Apparently works in DC too

Dominick Tribone ‏@d_tribe 5h
@yfreemark the MBTA apparently just did that too!
Retweeted by Yonah Freemark
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All kinds of "how can that be?" questions surround this, but if it saves big $ (and I have no doubt that it does) they should do it for the same reason they should go to proof-of-payment.

Getting an ADA patron onto a bus or train, their ride becomes essentially only a $3 or $4 loss (or no loss at all, as long as the seat was "free") instead of a real cash outlay to the independent contractor.

As with POP, go with it, rather than get all twisted up worrying about somebody getting a free ride.
 
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Considering the T is barely usable these days for abled persons, I would be all for giving the disabled free passes, if anything just as a consolation prize for having to deal with it.

Other than that, is there any reason most of the ride trips couldn't be done by cab companies, who could then be reimbursed by *whoever*? I get that they would still need the special wheelchair vans for some people, but there is no reason to have so many crown vics running around.
 
davem said:
Considering the T is barely usable these days for abled persons, I would be all for giving the disabled free passes, if anything just as a consolation prize for having to deal with it.

Other than that, is there any reason most of the ride trips couldn't be done by cab companies, who could then be reimbursed by *whoever*? I get that they would still need the special wheelchair vans for some people, but there is no reason to have so many crown vics running around.
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I don't get the Crown Vics either, but maybe the law doesn't permit the MBTA to buy (or the taxi's to sell) taxi services "in bulk".

Seems like it'd be cheaper to buy UberX chits for these customers.

And I bet if you ran an analysis, you'd find the top 100 customers would be much cheaper served by moving them to a better location and paying their rent (or at least their moving costs) than to keep sending on-demand vehicles out to them.
 
The RIDE vehicles that I've seen show up are usually taxicabs. I assume it's some kind of contracted service.

I have wondered if UberX would be a better choice. They seem to be cheaper. I don't know if they need special training or something.
 
Matthew said:
Legal requirement of the ADA. Admittedly, the T goes above and beyond. They are only required to provide service to destinations within three-quarter mile of a bus stop, but they will go out of that area for extra fare.

It's not going to be profitable. The RIDE is an important social service. Having said that, it should be subsidized as an independent entity from the MBTA. For example, rides given for medical purposes can be reimbursed by insurance such as Medicaid. But the T is not allowed to ask for the purpose of the trip. The RIDE ought to be managed separately from the T and provided for as a service to the disabled through funding earmarked specifically to help people with disabilities, and through Medicaid.
Click to expand...

I may be wrong, but I don't think that the RIDE can be separate from the T and still help the T qualify as ADA compliant.
 
underground said:
They have to be compliant with the American's with Disabilities Act or potentially lose federal money and/or face law suits. It sort of is what is it until someone comes up with a better way to give the disabled equal access to public transit.
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Uground -- "Gazillions" are being spent to give the disabled "Equal Access" -- yet despite how much is spent on "Equal Access" there is always the threat of a law suit and the nearly non-negotiable demand for more

In Lexington after a flood that damaged the historic East Lexington branch of the Public Library the proposed renovations and reconstruction triggered the ADA. The resultant dispute between the Disabilities Advocates and the Historic District folks led to multiple proposals and much architectural work, volunteer meeting, etc. Despite a well designed ramp system on the side of the iconic front porch -- there was no compromise.

The result the East Lexington Branch of the Lexington Public Library -- has ceased to exist.

A similar battle was fought over renovations to the Lexington Post Office [much less historic building though right on the edge of the historic downtown] which having the typical main floor on a pedestal with 4 steps in front caused a lot of consternation and chaos for several years and much $ [US Tax payer funded] until a ramp structure could be incorporated
 
Can anyone give a ballpark estimate what it would cost to bring the entire MBTA system up to ADA?

And follow up: once that happens (which I imagine it will, however long it takes), can the T then cease operating the RIDE?
 
MBTAddict said:
Can anyone give a ballpark estimate what it would cost to bring the entire MBTA system up to ADA?

And follow up: once that happens (which I imagine it will, however long it takes), can the T then cease operating the RIDE?
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T addict -- see above -- Don't worry even when the T is fully accessible --- the Ride will continue to exist as obviously some group finds it desirable for whatever purposes

No special accommodation is ever satisfied because the admission that the "War is over" means that you don't need the $$$ associated with the War

And so it goes -- The Ride Forever -- even if science and technology eventually made mobile disability a mostly historic condition -- someone will continue to benefit from it being in place -- it will continue to be in place
 
JeffDowntown said:
I may be wrong, but I don't think that the RIDE can be separate from the T and still help the T qualify as ADA compliant.
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Maybe. But at least the funding for it should definitely be supplemented from health care pools and other sources that assist the disabled.

And follow up: once that happens (which I imagine it will, however long it takes), can the T then cease operating the RIDE?
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I've looked into this and the answer seems to be: probably not. This is the social service aspect of it. I think that it is a very important and worthy service, but the Commonwealth needs to get real about finding a dedicated source of funding which is commensurate with the ideal that we hold as a society for helping people with disabilities live as well as the able-bodied. It's reminiscent of the 1986 law that Reagan signed which mandated emergency room stabilization of all patients who arrived at the hospital needing treatment, but did not provide any real source of funding for the mandate. In a way, the whole health care law fiasco of the last twenty years has been about finding a way to fix that contradiction.

Can anyone give a ballpark estimate what it would cost to bring the entire MBTA system up to ADA?
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The Government Center modernization project is currently at $90 million, last I checked. The next major underground station that needs to be figured out is Hynes Convention Center. That may cost just as much, although it is possible that it could be rolled into some of the air rights projects that are going to happen there. Then there's Symphony, and finally Boylston that must be sorted out. I have no idea what they are going to be able to do for Boylston, it seems pretty constrained.

Aboveground, a whole slew of stations on the surface Green Line are in miserable shape. Phase II of Comm Ave includes four station rebuilds (although I hope to cut that down) and is listed at about a dozen million dollars. The BC station rebuild was pegged at $20 million but I believe that they were trying to sneak other changes to infrastructure into that project, boosting the cost.

And don't forget about bus stops. The key bus route improvement program was supposed to address some accessibility issues, and it did help a bit, but there's so much more. Curb extensions, crosswalks, clearance zones, and snow clearing in the winter, etc.

There's accessibility, and then there's real accessibility. Technically there are many places on the Green Line and on the bus network where it is possible for a wheelchair user to board the vehicle. However, it may take several minutes or more to get them onboard, using lifts or bridge plates. I don't think that this is an acceptable situation for the long term, because it is cruel to the wheelchair user to put them on the spot like that, while everyone is waiting. We have the technology and the designs which can make loading wheelchairs and other disabled users as easy as level boarding on the subway, and it should be a goal to deploy it everywhere eventually.

I haven't even touched on the commuter rail yet.
 
"Gazillions" are being spent to give the disabled "Equal Access" -- yet despite how much is spent on "Equal Access" there is always the threat of a law suit and the nearly non-negotiable demand for more
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So you have research showing:1) that the disabled are already being accommodated enough; and 2) that they're just suing to make money? Of course you don't, but congratulations for waging war against those freeloading disableds.
 
MBTAddict said:
And follow up: once that happens (which I imagine it will, however long it takes), can the T then cease operating the RIDE?
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Never.

The Ride provides door to door service.

The T can never do that, and never should.

I believe the DC metro is fully ADA compliant, and they also offer dial a ride service.
 
underground said:
So you have research showing:1) that the disabled are already being accommodated enough; and 2) that they're just suing to make money? Of course you don't, but congratulations for waging war against those freeloading disableds.
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Uground -- NO Not at All the Disabled -- they are mostly pawns in the game -- the freeloading deadbeats are Lawyers who take advantage of the ADA to sue and sue and sue some more

There are hundreds of small mom and pop motels whose outdoor swimming pools closed as a result of ADA suits for compliance with ladders, versus ramps and lifts
 
whighlander said:
Uground -- NO Not at All the Disabled -- they are mostly pawns in the game -- the freeloading deadbeats are Lawyers who take advantage of the ADA to sue and sue and sue some more

There are hundreds of small mom and pop motels whose outdoor swimming pools closed as a result of ADA suits for compliance with ladders, versus ramps and lifts
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Oh, c'mon, whigh. You can find a more creative way to nuke this thread with talk radio flamebait than than that. Very poor effort by your usual quality-control standards.
wag_finger.gif
 
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