Reasonable Transit Pitches

Open question for the thread - it seems that the B&M line north of Lawrence is pretty much gone. Is there any other 'easy' (i.e., limited property takings, geographically friendly) way to get Commuter Rail up into Salem?

I was set to pitch a limited-basis Commuter Rail extension of the Haverhill Line, branching off past Andover to serve new stations at Methuen, Salem, and Canobie Lake Park. All trains heading for Canobie would utilize the Wildcat Branch for the Woburn/Anderson RTC connection, hopefully pulling drivers off of I-93. Such a line would be created under a cooperative agreement with the Mall at Rockingham Park and Canobie Lake Park - in exchange for them building the stations, we'd bring the trains right to their respective doorstops.

Of course, since the B&M ROW I thought was there... isn't, then this is not exactly a reasonable pitch. Is there any other way we could get this done without delving into the realm of insanity?

The line looks ok to me up to downtown Salem (there's even a station with a platform in Methuen), but then it dies. It might not matter, though, because I'm not sure it ever gets much closer to Canobie than that. It ultimately becomes what looks like a gorgeous rail trail up to Derry.
 
Yeah, the right of way is still pretty much intact along 28, maybe a few slight land takings but nothing major.
 
Yeah, the right of way is still pretty much intact along 28, maybe a few slight land takings but nothing major.

Huh, so it is.

It looked to me like 28 had gobbled it up and it had become the Methuen Rail Trail south of the border, but I guess not.

The line looks ok to me up to downtown Salem (there's even a station with a platform in Methuen), but then it dies. It might not matter, though, because I'm not sure it ever gets much closer to Canobie than that. It ultimately becomes what looks like a gorgeous rail trail up to Derry.

I'd sort of wanted to pull up the ROW onto Canobie Lake's gigantic parking lot and terminate there - no sense in fighting the rail trail NIMBYs to go any farther north when Canobie Lake and Salem are the real draws of such a rail branch. (Salem itself is in a rather unfortunate position too far away from any of the real money corridors that would go through NH - can't pull over from Nashua or Plaistow, and Portsmouth is on the wrong side of the Downeaster ROW so it doesn't even enter consideration.) Canobie already advertises itself as being closer to Boston than Six Flags New England, and I see it being a reasonable draw amongst the high school / college age / late 20s crowd to maybe be able to take a train up there and back, even if families might not be so quick to get on board.

Still, thinking about it some more, I'm not sure anyone would consider a required transfer to a shuttlebus as making or breaking their decision to commuter rail up to Canobie, so maybe it's not worth trying to pull the ROW however far west you'd need to get a Canobie Station in their parking lot.
 
CBS, the question you have to be asking is whether Canobie's actually still in operation for the life of the line. This reminds me a little bit of the amusement parks built at streetcar termini back in the 19th Century (Norumbega and such). Sure, those were built purposely by the streetcar companies, but they're of a similar vintage. I loved my school trips to Canobie as much as the next Boston Area kid, but it's kind of a dying model.

You extend the line to it, you're basically betting not only that it will be a draw on day 1, but in year 20. I'm not sure I could make that commitment, and there's really no other reason to extend to Salem, since the line past there is pretty much a lost cause (the rail trail seems to be the better use anyway). Since folks in Methuen can drive to catch the train elsewhere, I'd call this one as not worth it.
 
CBS, the question you have to be asking is whether Canobie's actually still in operation for the life of the line. This reminds me a little bit of the amusement parks built at streetcar termini back in the 19th Century (Norumbega and such). Sure, those were built purposely by the streetcar companies, but they're of a similar vintage. I loved my school trips to Canobie as much as the next Boston Area kid, but it's kind of a dying model.

You extend the line to it, you're basically betting not only that it will be a draw on day 1, but in year 20. I'm not sure I could make that commitment, and there's really no other reason to extend to Salem, since the line past there is pretty much a lost cause (the rail trail seems to be the better use anyway). Since folks in Methuen can drive to catch the train elsewhere, I'd call this one as not worth it.

I definitely see your point, but Canobie being in operation for the next 20+ years is a safe bet and one I'd absolutely be comfortable taking. Even if it doesn't survive in its present form, the place has been open for business for 110 years and counting. I don't really see the name going anywhere, even if the owners might. It may not be an immense enterprise but it does have plenty of staying power.
 
I've been doing some more thinking about the Green Line Heavy Rail, and one of the major obstacles to its construction - the burial grounds near Park Street.

Obviously, those can't be moved, and it's not feasible to bury HRT tracks under the existing LRT tracks.

So I came up with another solution.

This way, any of the Green Line branches can be made HRT without destroying the existing tracks at Park Street-Government Center, so none of the LRT branches would be affected. New stations at Charlesgate (Mass. Ave.), Dartmouth Street and the Northwest Boston Common corner would serve to both replace the lost access to Hynes, Copley, Arlington and Boylston (all of which would need to be bypassed) and reduce or eliminate the demand for transit access along Storrow Drive. This seems counter-intuitive at first but means that a Storrow trade-in could get away with building one or even no stations - expressing down the length of the Esplanade with a single stop at the Charlesgate station (and, optionally, an additional stop on the Esplanade at or near the Hatch Shell) that would have already been built, and eliminating the need to bring the Blue Line to Kenmore (allowing it to continue onto Allston/Brighton along or under the Pike or Worcester Line instead.)
 
Cool idea, CBS. I once toyed with the reverse notion, converting the existing tunnel to HRT and running trolleys into Government Center via a Beacon Street subway. But your idea is probably more feasible than mine, since it doesn't involve rebuilding existing stations for high-level platforms.

(Actually, technically speaking, my plan called for a "Trolley Loop," in which the B, C and restored A feed into a Beacon Street subway running between Kenmore Sq. and Dartmouth Street, before turning south down Dartmouth to connect to the Huntington Ave. Subway. The whole system looked roughly like this: http://goo.gl/maps/frCnE (drawn crudely); there were also two circumferential lines that I didn't feel like sketching in. But I digress.)

A couple of thoughts:
-what is the Blue Line's alignment in this scenario? Over to Allston via Cambridgeport? (I believe Vanshnookenraggen once proposed your alignment for a Blue-Red Connector, with a Blue-eats-D conclusion.)
-Instead of expanding the existing GL subway between Hanover-ish and North Station, why not route heavy rail Green Line into the Orange Line tunnels? I assume they'd be using compatible rolling stock.
-Where would you continue HRGL in the north and west? Would you continue it at all?

Also, something I've always wondered about (well, not always, but you know what I mean): what are the logistical challenges that tunneling through filled-in land entails?
 
Cool idea, CBS. I once toyed with the reverse notion, converting the existing tunnel to HRT and running trolleys into Government Center via a Beacon Street subway. But your idea is probably more feasible than mine, since it doesn't involve rebuilding existing stations for high-level platforms.

I'm fairly certain most of the Green Line stations are already primed for Heavy Rail conversion or should have been built that way. That aside, there's no avoiding rebuilding at least four Green Line stations that aren't AMA compliant - incidentally, those would be the four stations that the Beacon Street Subway would bypass.

(Actually, technically speaking, my plan called for a "Trolley Loop," in which the B, C and restored A feed into a Beacon Street subway running between Kenmore Sq. and Dartmouth Street, before turning south down Dartmouth to connect to the Huntington Ave. Subway. The whole system looked roughly like this: http://goo.gl/maps/frCnE (drawn crudely); there were also two circumferential lines that I didn't feel like sketching in. But I digress.)

Not half bad, although I'm not sold on connecting into the Huntington Ave. Subway. As a way to tie off all the LRT branches, it works, but the more I think about it, the less I'm sold on through routing trains from Cleveland Circle or Boston College to Heath Street, or even just to Brigham Circle.

A couple of thoughts:
-what is the Blue Line's alignment in this scenario? Over to Allston via Cambridgeport? (I believe Vanshnookenraggen once proposed your alignment for a Blue-Red Connector, with a Blue-eats-D conclusion.)
-Instead of expanding the existing GL subway between Hanover-ish and North Station, why not route heavy rail Green Line into the Orange Line tunnels? I assume they'd be using compatible rolling stock.
-Where would you continue HRGL in the north and west? Would you continue it at all?

Also, something I've always wondered about (well, not always, but you know what I mean): what are the logistical challenges that tunneling through filled-in land entails?

In order:
-The beauty of this is that it reduces or eliminates the demand for transit service along Storrow. Now, if the stars aligned perfectly and getting rid of Storrow became an option, the Blue Line could be routed straight down with no stops, crossing the Beacon Street (and possibly, the Mass Ave) Subways and then continuing on up Soldiers Field Road, under or aside the Worcester Line ROW to hit New Brighton Landing, and through towards a terminus at Watertown, Waltham, or Brandeis/Roberts. I prefer that routing over Cambridgeport because it eliminates two crossings of the Charles that you would've had to contend with otherwise, complicating everything.

Another option would be to ignore the Pike/Worcester ROW, turn down Cambridge Street towards Washington, and restore the A branch service as HRT with limited stopping - Union Square, Oak Square, Newton Corner, Watertown.

But personally? I'd cut the Blue Line off at Charles/MGH, focus on extending it in the other direction to Lynn (and beyond?) and defer extending it any further west until we had a clearer picture of what the most beneficial routing would be.

- I toyed with that idea, almost proposing melding the tunnel together into 3 LRT tracks and 3 HRT tracks, or even 2/4 favoring HRT because that would put us halfway towards express capacity on the Orange Line and even better - potential 24 hour capacity. I discarded it because you're going to have to modify Haymarket and North Station either way, but having the Orange and HRT Green Lines sharing platform real estate would add another layer of complication that I'm frankly not sure the MBTA can handle.

- Down the GLX all the way to West Medford / Porter Square. I'd consider extending the Porter Square branch down to Fresh Pond, too - or, if I thought I had an army of lawyers, lobbyists and politicians powerful enough to blacken the skies of Belmont, I'd extended it to Waverly instead. (And then I would turn my engine of mass opposition busting upon the NIMBYs of Arlington and Lexington and get some Red Line extensions done.) I'd also divert LRT Green Line trains in the other direction out of North Station - over Rutherford Avenue up into Charlestown, Everett, and Chelsea. Oh, and a Greenway Green Line too. Might as well put a trolley there since nothing else useful is going in there any time soon...

And I'm going to defer to people smarter than I am to answer your question about tunneling through fill. (Paging F-Line, F-Line to the thread...!)
 
F-Line has said before that tunneling through the landfill is a total non-starter.
 
F-Line has said before that tunneling through the landfill is a total non-starter.

I believe that, but why wasn't it a problem in the Boylston Street Subway or the Cambridge Subway near Kendall? (If memory serves, everything between the Grand Junction and the Charles is fill.)
 
I'm fairly certain most of the Green Line stations are already primed for Heavy Rail conversion or should have been built that way. That aside, there's no avoiding rebuilding at least four Green Line stations that aren't AMA compliant - incidentally, those would be the four stations that the Beacon Street Subway would bypass.

Apologies for ignorance, but what is AMA (American Medical Association?) compliant mean and how is it different from ADA compliant?

Not half bad, although I'm not sold on connecting into the Huntington Ave. Subway. As a way to tie off all the LRT branches, it works, but the more I think about it, the less I'm sold on through routing trains from Cleveland Circle or Boston College to Heath Street, or even just to Brigham Circle.

Oh, it's even worse than that, actually. ;) The Oak Square and BC lines run all the way through to Mattapan, while the C line runs down to Arborway. The idea was that the LRT lines would act as intra-neighborhood transit corridors, primarily being used for short trips, and secondarily as feeder services into the HRT Green, Orange, Red and EMU Indigo Lines.

I meant to include in my original post that my pitch absolutely falls into the "crazy" category, not intended to be reasonable at all.


In order:
-The beauty of this is that it reduces or eliminates the demand for transit service along Storrow. Now, if the stars aligned perfectly and getting rid of Storrow became an option, the Blue Line could be routed straight down with no stops, crossing the Beacon Street (and possibly, the Mass Ave) Subways and then continuing on up Soldiers Field Road, under or aside the Worcester Line ROW to hit New Brighton Landing, and through towards a terminus at Watertown, Waltham, or Brandeis/Roberts. I prefer that routing over Cambridgeport because it eliminates two crossings of the Charles that you would've had to contend with otherwise, complicating everything.

I agree with you re Cambridgeport. So your thought, in this scenario, is that the Blue Line would parallel the new Beacon Street tunnel, but running express, right? Okay, I can see that working. On the other hand, Beacon Street looks pretty wide. Why not quad track a Beacon Street subway, and run BL express down the middle? (Or along the sides, whatever.)

(I can, obviously, see many reasons why a quad tracked Beacon Street subway wouldn't fly, but I'm curious as to your reasons.)

Another option would be to ignore the Pike/Worcester ROW, turn down Cambridge Street towards Washington, and restore the A branch service as HRT with limited stopping - Union Square, Oak Square, Newton Corner, Watertown.

Definitely like this idea, though I fear it begins to stray from reasonability. :(

But personally? I'd cut the Blue Line off at Charles/MGH, focus on extending it in the other direction to Lynn (and beyond?) and defer extending it any further west until we had a clearer picture of what the most beneficial routing would be.

I can understand this argument, but, for likely irrational reasons, I'm bothered by the idea of an RT line that terminates within a city. Seems to me that it would get a lot of peak direction usage, but that you'd have a lot of empty cars going in the non-peak direction. Whereas in the alternative model, like what the Orange Line currently operates with, every terminus-terminus trip carries peak direction traffic at some point. Seems more efficient to me.

(^^That all has absolutely no basis of which I am aware in hard data; it's just what seems logical to my dilettante brain. Please correct me!)

- I toyed with that idea, almost proposing melding the tunnel together into 3 LRT tracks and 3 HRT tracks, or even 2/4 favoring HRT because that would put us halfway towards express capacity on the Orange Line and even better - potential 24 hour capacity. I discarded it because you're going to have to modify Haymarket and North Station either way, but having the Orange and HRT Green Lines sharing platform real estate would add another layer of complication that I'm frankly not sure the MBTA can handle.

Omaja had a similar comment on service complications like that on a crazy pitch of mine over in the other thread. I get where he's coming from, and I think I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not quite sold. How would the OL and HRGL sharing tracks between two stations be much different than the current arrangement of the Red Line? You have two services with different destinations that will need to be dispatched differently that happen to be on the same tracks for a bit.

Or would it just be too complicated because everything happens in such a short distance?

- Down the GLX all the way to West Medford / Porter Square. I'd consider extending the Porter Square branch down to Fresh Pond, too - or, if I thought I had an army of lawyers, lobbyists and politicians powerful enough to blacken the skies of Belmont, I'd extended it to Waverly instead. (And then I would turn my engine of mass opposition busting upon the NIMBYs of Arlington and Lexington and get some Red Line extensions done.) I'd also divert LRT Green Line trains in the other direction out of North Station - over Rutherford Avenue up into Charlestown, Everett, and Chelsea. Oh, and a Greenway Green Line too. Might as well put a trolley there since nothing else useful is going in there any time soon...

I like. I think I would go with Alewife over Fresh Pond, though. Create two routes into the cities from there. And I wouldn't want a new Park-n-Ride built at Fresh Pond. (You could also hit up one of the heaviest used stations on the T instead: Harvard.)

I like redirecting LRT east of the Orange Line. I think LRT along Surface Road is a perfectly reasonable idea. How would you connect it to the rest of the Green Line LRT network, if at all?
 
I think LRT along Surface Road is a perfectly reasonable idea. How would you connect it to the rest of the Green Line LRT network, if at all?

Run the LRV lines on the surface on Causeway Street and Nashua Street, and it would be very easy to connect with the Green Line as it emerges from the portal next to Nashua Street. Red lines indicate new surface LRV track:

glconnection.jpg
 
I believe that, but why wasn't it a problem in the Boylston Street Subway or the Cambridge Subway near Kendall? (If memory serves, everything between the Grand Junction and the Charles is fill.)

Based on the timing of Back Bay being filled (~1890) and the extension being constructed (~1914), I surmise that there was little or no actual development on top of the fill. So they likely did a pretty shallow cut-and-cover tunnel which is what we have today. To go back and alter or expand that tunnel (or construct a new one) would be astronomically expensive.

I don't believe that the area east of Longfellow is landfill - just the part west of it and south of Grand Junction RR.
 
Based on the timing of Back Bay being filled (~1890) and the extension being constructed (~1914), I surmise that there was little or no actual development on top of the fill. So they likely did a pretty shallow cut-and-cover tunnel which is what we have today. To go back and alter or expand that tunnel (or construct a new one) would be astronomically expensive.

Astronomically expensive because you have to dig and build a new retaining wall to keep the water out?

I don't believe that the area east of Longfellow is landfill - just the part west of it and south of Grand Junction RR.

By "east of Longfellow," do you mean East Cambridge or essentially the West End? (I was referring, for what it's worth, to East Cambridge being fill, but I could be totally wrong about that.)
 
Apologies for ignorance, but what is AMA (American Medical Association?) compliant mean and how is it different from ADA compliant?

No, that's me 'typing stupidly!'

It was late at night and I was tired. I meant to say ADA.

I agree with you re Cambridgeport. So your thought, in this scenario, is that the Blue Line would parallel the new Beacon Street tunnel, but running express, right? Okay, I can see that working. On the other hand, Beacon Street looks pretty wide. Why not quad track a Beacon Street subway, and run BL express down the middle? (Or along the sides, whatever.)

(I can, obviously, see many reasons why a quad tracked Beacon Street subway wouldn't fly, but I'm curious as to your reasons.)

The curve to get to Beacon Street from Charles/MGH would follow the Embankment Road into Storrow Drive anyway, and there's about 300 feet of space between Beacon and Storrow. You could make the argument to quad-track Beacon Street, but it feels simpler (if likely more expensive) to have two double-track tunnels instead. Plus, I'm not sure that it'd be all that easy to go back and modify the tunnel later, meaning the Green and Blue segments would be a 'both or neither' proposition, and you'd be locked into a Kenmore alignment for the Blue Line. That would let you convert two branches of it into Heavy Rail, but would you really need to?

For that matter, could you?

Omaja had a similar comment on service complications like that on a crazy pitch of mine over in the other thread. I get where he's coming from, and I think I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not quite sold. How would the OL and HRGL sharing tracks between two stations be much different than the current arrangement of the Red Line? You have two services with different destinations that will need to be dispatched differently that happen to be on the same tracks for a bit.

Or would it just be too complicated because everything happens in such a short distance?

The Red Line branches just before JFK/UMass. JFK/UMass and all stations south of it are drops in the bucket compared to what comes north of it. In this way, the MBTA can 'afford' to split headways 50/50, because having 10 minute peak service on either branch means 5 minute headways through South Station - Harvard. Hell, if you had a world-class agency full of extremely competent people at the helm, you could swing for 5 minute peak headways on either branch and that would mean a train is traveling between the busiest section of what I believe is the busiest line every 150 seconds. Assume you stop the trains for 30 seconds each, that's an opportunity to board coming every 2 minutes.

But we both know that 'world-class' is not an accurate description of the T.

So adopting the 'Red Line' school of thinking to Orange/Green dispatching through Haymarket/North Station means you have to do one of three things.

You could adopt the 'JFK/UMass' style set up, with two island platforms serving four tracks, but this would probably end with two tracks being dedicated Orange Line and two tracks dedicated Green Line. At that point, it's shared trackage in name only. (It could also end with two tracks dedicated inbound and two tracks dedicated outbound, which is a better setup.)

Or, you could go with an arrangement like Savin Hill, where all trains pass through but only two of the tracks have a platform to stop at. That would mean 50% of your trains are expressing through Haymarket and/or North Station and that's going to go over like a lead balloon.

I like. I think I would go with Alewife over Fresh Pond, though. Create two routes into the cities from there. And I wouldn't want a new Park-n-Ride built at Fresh Pond. (You could also hit up one of the heaviest used stations on the T instead: Harvard.)

I like redirecting LRT east of the Orange Line. I think LRT along Surface Road is a perfectly reasonable idea. How would you connect it to the rest of the Green Line LRT network, if at all?

I went with Fresh Pond because the line already crosses Porter Square. Sending it over to Alewife means you're doubling service between Alewife and Porter for, frankly, zero benefit - unless there's a huge unspoken community of people who are demanding a single seat ride from Alewife to North Station for whom transferring at Porter is a deal-breaker that I don't know about. A Fresh Pond extension is also on a ROW that has decayed enough that we could rip it out and drop something new in, yet has not been abutted enough (up to Huron Ave, anyway) that we couldn't squeeze two tracks in if we did rip out the one that's there now.

Mount Auburn Cemetery complicates matters some, otherwise it'd be an easy and straight shot on that very same ROW down to Watertown Mall / Arsenal Mall, and on into Watertown itself, serving a lot of ring capacity. If we did that, though, I'd probably keep the Fresh Pond / Porter branch of GLX as LRT, having all HRT go up to West Medford.

Run the LRV lines on the surface on Causeway Street and Nashua Street, and it would be very easy to connect with the Green Line as it emerges from the portal next to Nashua Street. Red lines indicate new surface LRV track:

glconnection.jpg

You'd lose North Station if you did this. I'd create a new incline between Valenti and Market Streets and have the trains turn to reach the Greenway for their first new stop at North Street. (Then on to Aquarium Station, High Street - Rowes Wharf, and South Station. It would be designated the NS Branch or Greenway Shuttle, and would be where we sent all our 2-car consists to die.)
 
As a 'pilot program' to demonstrate the effectiveness of signal prioritization, Dudley Square Station's traffic signals should be reprogrammed for manual control by an on-site dispatcher, whose job would be to ensure that the maximum number of buses are being released from Dudley at any given moment, or that the fewest number of buses are stuck at red lights near Dudley. In addition, signal pre-emption devices should be installed on all Silver Line buses.

Once the effectiveness of prioritization is demonstrated, pre-emption devices can then be installed on all 'Key Bus Route' buses and Green Line vehicles.
 
I like it! It makes a lot of sense; therefore the MBTA won't do it.
 
But there are no signals at Dudley Station. There are a few near the station, but those are controlled by the city. Are you suggesting it "makes a lot of sense" for the MBTA to sneak into the city's traffic operations center and take over the signal controls?
 
But there are no signals at Dudley Station. There are a few near the station, but those are controlled by the city. Are you suggesting it "makes a lot of sense" for the MBTA to sneak into the city's traffic operations center and take over the signal controls?

Obviously he's not suggesting that the T "sneak in," but rather that the City and the T coordinate to have a specialized dispatcher for those signals whose goal is to prioritize MBTA busses in the traffic around Dudley Station. It makes sense to me. I guess I might start with an automated approach like they supposedly have on Washington Street for the Silver Line (they do have that, right?), but I could see how the traffic there is too complicated for that.
 

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