Reasonable Transit Pitches

I dunno, I'd say it's a reasonable transit pitch if it's actually in the newspaper... they don't tend to give serious press to crazy pitches...
 
If it's a private sector gig, then all bets are off for what's "reasonable" versus "crazy." If a sufficiently rich person wanted to come along, buy the necessary land, go through the necessary environmental reviews and get the necessary permits, they can build whatever they want, taking whatever risks they want. And if they fold, well, that's what happens in the private sector. The public would probably buy the infrastructure and use it to its own ends– which could mean this all could work out pretty well for us in the end.

I personally think this guy's idea is kinda daft, for reasons already laid out in this discussion so far (too slow, too infrequent, the last mile problem, etc.)... but since he wouldn't have to pass public scrutiny to make it happen, it's not nearly so crazy.

And, as I said, if he wants to do it, if he thinks it's feasible for some reason that I don't know about, I'm thrilled to have him invest in that corridor. Providence–Worcester is a little bit of a stretch, but Providence–Woonsocket isn't, and this could be a good way to jumpstart that.

And I personally would love, long-term, for a Western Mass Commuter Rail network to be developed, with hubs in Springfield and Worcester; this could be the very early beginnings of that. Maybe.
 
Arlington said:
Thanks for the ethno-historical perspective, but the idea behind reasonable transit pitches is that they should serve pent-up or proven travel demand with a cheap, simple implementation.

"Deeply resonant, historical appeal," while deeply resonant and historically appealing, is not evidence for actual trip-making demand.

A reasonable transit pitch has to start with things like "X00,000 daily trips by car are made between...." or "X00 travelers per day from the Worcester area drive to PVD and board Amtrak NEC service..."

If the business plan for WOR-PVD commuter rail is based on the Blackstone's water-powered legacy (an awe for which I share) or French Canadian migration patterns then it belongs in Crazy Transit Pitches.
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No arguments here, I agree fully. If there's any kind of market here, it's probably more for heritage tourism railroad tours--although I don't even know how that might seriously compete against tourist railroads such as Mt. Washington cog railway, etc.
 
BussesAin'tTrains said:
I dunno, I'd say it's a reasonable transit pitch if it's actually in the newspaper... they don't tend to give serious press to crazy pitches...
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??? Hyperliop? Washington-Baltimore Maglev? Portland-Motreal sleeper train? Newspaper reporters have no crazy/reasonable filter. To them, it is all just "news."
 
Arlington said:
??? Hyperliop? Washington-Baltimore Maglev? Portland-Motreal sleeper train? Newspaper reporters have no crazy/reasonable filter. To them, it is all just "news."
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I did say "serious". Hyperloop and MagLev are clearly bonkers, and the journos know it. Sleeper Train is not bonkers, just not likely to be a profit maker. It's not a Crazy Transit Pitch... Same goes for Worcester-Providence. But I've learned my lesson in the past with arguing about what makes something "reasonable" or not... so I'll just drop it.
 
Providence-Worcester commuter rail gathers momentum

By Aaron Nicodemus TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF
Aaron.Nicodemus@telegram.com

WORCESTER — A proposal to build a private passenger rail service from Worcester to Providence bucks more than 100 years of history.

At the moment, private commuter rail in the United States is extinct. The last one to run with any regularity — the Rio Grande Zephyr, which shuttled through the Rockies between Denver and Ogden, Utah — ceased operating as a private enterprise 31 years ago, when the route was folded into Amtrak's California Zephyr line.

A short-lived private venture called the Florida Fun Train operated between Fort Lauderdale and Tampa in the late 1990s, but it folded in less than a year, according to a recent story on private commuter rail in The Atlantic magazine.

And that's it.

Amtrak now runs most passenger rail service in the United States. While the Northeast Corridor between Boston and Washington, D.C. is profitable, Amtrak is supported by nearly $1 billion a year in public subsidies. Most major cities have their own public commuter rail, subway and bus services.

But Vincent Bono, general manager and largest shareholder of the Boston Surface Railroad Co., based in Arlington, Mass., is convinced there is enough demand to bring private commuter service to large cities in the Northeast. He said the Worcester-to-Providence connection is the most feasible of several city pairings that he has studied.

Track negotiations

His company has proposed investing $3 million to launch private commuter rail service between Worcester's Union Station and Providence's Station Building, starting in 2016. The service would run over an existing freight rail line owned and operated by the Providence & Worcester Railroad Co. of Worcester. It would have three round trips a day, during peak commuter hours.

Boston Surface Railroad and P&W will spend the next 12 to 18 months hammering out an agreement that will allow Boston Surface to rent the use of P&W's existing rail line. The proposed cost of a ticket is $16 one way, with a discount for commuters, he said.

Mr. Bono said his company would buy five commuter trains, lease five others, and hire P&W engineers to operate them. The passengers would have assigned seating and be able to purchase their tickets online. Boston Surface Railroad employees would act as ushers, as well as serve food and drinks. The proposal calls for alcoholic drinks to be sold on the train.

In a recent test run, the trip between Worcester and Providence along the P&W line took an hour and 42 minutes. Driving distance between the two cities along Route 146 is approximately 45 minutes to an hour, depending on traffic. Mr. Bono said the goal is to get the train trip reduced to about 70 minutes when the service is launched.

"It's got to be competitive with a typical commuter's drive time," he said.

Projected use, growth

Mr. Bono said he estimates that 32,800 people commute between Worcester and Providence every day, and another 10,000 people commute between Woonsocket and Providence. Woonsocket would be the only proposed station along the way.

Mr. Bono said Boston Surface Railroad Co. would need to capture 3 percent of the Route 146 commuters — 360,000 annual passengers in its first year of operation — to be viable. Then he projected that the service will grow as much as 8 percent per year.

The service's only competition are cars, he said. Ninety-nine percent of the commuters traveling between Worcester and Providence currently drive in a car, he said.

Other than cars, there are two options.

The Peter Pan Bus Service offers one or two buses a day between Worcester and Providence, but not at commuter-friendly times. A one way ticket on Peter Pan for this trip costs $17.

Theoretically, a commuter could hop on an MBTA train at Union Station and go to Boston, then transfer to another train that would go to Providence. That trip would cost $21 and take more than two hours, one way. Mr. Bono said the MBTA had provided him with some ridership numbers on this implausible commuter trip, but the MBTA could not confirm them.

Upgrades study

Mr. Bono also promised that Boston Surface Railroad Co. would not take any government money.

"Government money means they can dictate where stations should be built," he said. The proposed rail line would only serve Worcester, Woonsocket, and Providence.

Charles D. Rennick, secretary and general counsel for the P&W, said a study is underway that will examine improvements and upgrades that could shorten the trip time considerably.

"Freight doesn't need to move as fast as passengers," he said. "The line has 35 to 40 at-grade crossings, which are usually street crossings. You may need to make enhancements for passenger cars to go through those crossings." And the passenger train will have to navigate four separate freight yards, he said.

In addition, as a Class 3 track, the P&W line has certain federally mandated speed limits: 40 miles per hour for freight and 60 miles per hour for passenger service.

Federal OK needed

Perhaps one of the most daunting challenges the service faces is approval from the Federal Railroad Administration. The new service will also have to adhere to regulations imposed by the Rail Safety Improvement Act of 2008. That act requires, among other things, that trains have positive train control technology, which limits collisions and slows trains down. The act is the result of a 2008 train accident in California, in which Metrolink passenger train and a Union Pacific freight train collided, killing 25 people and injuring 135.

Mr. Rennick said the P&W and Boston Surface will work together to receive approval for the service from the Federal Railroad Administration.

Most trains in the U.S. are supposed to be equipped with positive train control technology by next year — including all trains that carry passengers, and most freight trains. P&W's freight trains have positive train control technology, and can communicate with passenger trains when they are on the same rail lines, Mr. Rennick said.

Boston Surface's proposal is not the only private commuter rail proposal in the country, nor is it the largest.

That prize belongs to All Aboard Florida, a $2.5 billion proposal to link Miami with Orlando along an existing freight rail line. That proposal includes 4.2 million square feet of new real estate, including a 70-story residential building in Miami and state-of-the-art train stations in the downtowns of Miami, Fort Lauderdale, West Palm Beach and Orlando.

Last month, Mr. Bono took the first step toward creating a private passenger rail connection between Worcester and Providence. He invited dozens of friends, family, P&W Railroad executives and railroad aficionados for a test run. Starting at Union Station, the crowd was treated to a champagne brunch as the train made its way along the 45-mile route.

After a brief layover, the train returned, and guests "enjoyed a five-star catered lunch and full bar during the two-hour return trip from Providence to Worcester."

The train belonged to P&W: It was the railroad's Fall Foliage excursion fleet of six refurbished former Amtrak passenger cars, pulled by a P&W engine. Usually, the excursion fleet runs only once a year, in October. This year, it ran twice.

The railroad passengers concluded their trip at an after-party at the Middle Eastern restaurant Byblos Lounge in Union Station.

"It was a great day," Mr. Bono declared.
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Worcester Telegram-Gazette
 
They seem to use "commuter" where they mean "intercity".

Ironic thing about "private commuter rail" is that "commuter" comes from the term "commuted fare", which is a discounted fare with little to no profit margin.
 
Quote from article: "The Peter Pan Bus Service offers one or two buses a day between Worcester and Providence, but not at commuter-friendly times. A one way ticket on Peter Pan for this trip costs $17. "

Peter Pan actually this year increased the service to three round-trips. It is part of a much longer route: Providence-Worcester-Springfield-Pittsfield-Albany.
DATTCO bus, which operates Boston-New Bedford service and also operates most of the Megabus services in New England, briefly operated a Providence-Uxbridge-Worcester service earlier this year, with times geared toward commuters. I heard they carried almost no one and discontinued the service after less than a year.
 
What's the pain point this addresses? Are the highways between Providence and Worcester clogged and at capacity? Is parking $30/day in either of the cities it serves?

I'd love to see projects like this succeed, but in the absence of a real burning platform I think the last mile problem will be hard to overcome.
 
winstonoboogie said:
Quote from article: "The Peter Pan Bus Service offers one or two buses a day between Worcester and Providence, but not at commuter-friendly times. A one way ticket on Peter Pan for this trip costs $17. "
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The mistake first time transportation entrepreneurs make is that they assume there will be no competitive response. If they had any experience operating anything (or even remember their micro econ 101) the ONLY rational response by Peter Pan to the train's entry will be to (try to) crush it with superior schedule and pricing, something which buses are freer to do.

Peter Pan can snap its fingers and bracket whatever service the train offers with a bus 15 minutes before and 15 minutes later. Competitively, whatever market the train discovers, the bus can steal most of and serve better (at higher frequency) and cheaper (right-sized to the market).

Two buses have at least 1 fewer staff than 1 train (two operators + conductor), and lower capital costs.

While the train is all tied up in regulation and P&W dispatching, the bus just slips into road traffic. Only where the road market has catastrophically failed to match supply with demand (e.g. Boston Rushour) can the train hope to compete. Is either PVD or WOR traffic that bad?

If we've noticed the "free market" Ubers eating a good chunk of the "regulated" Taxis' lunch, you'll see the buses free to schedule rings around any train. The rails have not been deregulated enough to actually compete this way. A reasonable transit pitch would be bus or jitney based and would top out at Bridj service (ie a fancy bus).
 
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That proposal is by someone who either knows nothing about railroads, or knows a lot and wants to make a cheap buck off the taxpayer dime. AAF is a singular case - a well-run railroad with quality physical plant (which granted P&W does as well) in a corridor with demonstrated high demand (nope) and demonstrated finances (nope) that's going to make its money off real estate development anyway (nope).

They don't even know that they can get to their terminals. They'd need the MBTA's permission to get to Worcester, and Amtrak's permission to use a platform track at Providence. Neither has any incentive to work with a fly-by-night operator. If the P&W was proposing this internally I might give it at least a little thought, but not with one guy with a PO box thinking he can run a profitable passenger train.
 
I agree... Worcester to Providence is a bus corridor before a train corridor. As long as the roads are free of traffic and provide a direct route, buses should have the upper hand.

I could see that a local Woonsocket (or other suburb location) to Providence would be a little more viable. Cut off 2/3 of the distance and probably get the times a little better aligned but lose the possibility of getting anyone for the return trip.

Along similar lines - would the T ever modify the Providence schedules to make commuting into Providence an option? Right now it seems like all of the schedules are configured to either get people to/from T.F. Green or to South Station during peak periods.
 
Matthew said:
They seem to use "commuter" where they mean "intercity".

Ironic thing about "private commuter rail" is that "commuter" comes from the term "commuted fare", which is a discounted fare with little to no profit margin.
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I found this odd. I think they are using "commuter rail" the way the rest of the world would use "regional rail" (not in the SEPTA sense, which is in fact commuter rail). Huh.
 
Does RIDOT have any Commuter Rail plans of their own? A South Attleboro to Wickford or Westerly or something, with more local stops than the MBTA operates. Could also do a Woonsocket routing as well. Seems like it makes more sense to get RIDOT on the train game than some OMG TRAINZ mogul.
 
Vincent Bono is promising that he won't take a dime in public funding to build his fun train up the Blackstone Valley corridor.

As long as that's true, I'm of the opinion that we have absolutely nothing to lose here and no real reason to oppose him. The way I see it, there are three ways the Boston Surface Railroad Company can go:
  1. The service fails in the first year, just like 2/3rds of all businesses started in this country. It leaves behind refurbished tracks brought up to passenger rail snuff, a refurbished and reactivated train station in Woonsocket (or a beautiful brand-new palatial station built on private money there), and a clear lesson as to how not to run a railroad. Five or ten years from now, when RIDOT wants to get going on in-state rail service up the corridor starting with shuttle runs to Woonsocket, new station infrastructure in Woonsocket and track upgrades to accommodate passengers are two less things they'll need to buy.
  2. The service survives year 1 but struggles to stay afloat. Vincent Bono will either realize why it's struggling (because passenger comfort can't make up for bad frequency and bad speed) and either sell off:
    • to PW (good),
    • to the states' DOTs (good),
    • to an operator that has a clue about passenger railroading (good),
    • or to another operator who similarly is flush with dollars but lacking sense (which leads right back to the start of this option)
    OR he will have learned his lesson about what makes a successful railroad and immediately work to correct the terminal flaw that is lack of frequency, speed, or ideally both. If he learns his lesson, we reset the clock and reevaluate option 1 or option 3, below.
  3. The service defies everyone's reasonable expectation and gets off to a roaring successful start. Vincent Bono cannot keep up with the demand on his gravy train! He decides to start ramping up his operation, buying more trains and opening up more options for commute times. We arrive at the same point we were going to anyway eventually, with (slightly nicer, much stuffier) trains running up and down the corridor every hour after 10 years of big success. The state might not even need to augment the new service with its own runs, but if it does, it'll have a working proof of demand and a much easier time of getting over the political hurdles. (And, again, will have ultimately spent far less thanks to private expenditure.)
Frankly I don't see how this can backfire and hurt the state since PW isn't about to let its own tracks get ripped out in some scorched-earth bankruptcy maneuver and the worst thing that happens to the state is that it has to either buy or eminent domain the Woonsocket station away from the company during the bankruptcy process.

So as long as it holds true that not one dime of state dollars goes to Vincent Bono for this? Good luck to him. I expect him to fail, but it's his own money he's putting up. Who am I to say how he can spend it?
 
The way that it backfires is that it is marginally successful. Not enough to convince other entrepreneurs to get in the game on other routes, but enough to convince Congress that private is the future, justifying (in their mind) a reduction in subsidies. I want it to be successful if it is in fact a really good route, otherwise I want it to fail. Something that stumbles along, all the while sending the wrong message is not a good thing for anybody with the possible exception of Vincent Bono.
 
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