Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion
- Thread starter statler
- Start date
whighlander
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,812
- Reaction score
- 647
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
That move will never happen
If Google moves it would be to the old Sun Campus on Network Dr. in Burlington
Full disclosure -- my brother recently joined Google in Pittsburgh
He says that the Google Campus culture is very strong -- they don't like limits to be imposed by buildings -- hence the idea of the connecting bridge in Cambridge allowing future growth
I'm guessing that with some local acquisitions to be subsumed into the mother Google -- that Cambridge could be 1000 Googlians in a year or so
As for space -- Google is mostly offices -- but -- Google likes a lot of amenities for its folks to keep them happy and working well into the night and on weekends -- so Google needs more sq. ft. / employee than say John Hancock-- although less than a place with lots of dedicated laboratory such as Novartis
The original story quoted 300,000 sq. ft. today + 25,000 to be added by the "bridge" -- I'm guessing that with the consolidation and organic growth that they'd want access in the next couple of years to about 500,000 sq. ft. -- in an integrated, all-weather campus
That move will never happen
If Google moves it would be to the old Sun Campus on Network Dr. in Burlington
Full disclosure -- my brother recently joined Google in Pittsburgh
He says that the Google Campus culture is very strong -- they don't like limits to be imposed by buildings -- hence the idea of the connecting bridge in Cambridge allowing future growth
I'm guessing that with some local acquisitions to be subsumed into the mother Google -- that Cambridge could be 1000 Googlians in a year or so
As for space -- Google is mostly offices -- but -- Google likes a lot of amenities for its folks to keep them happy and working well into the night and on weekends -- so Google needs more sq. ft. / employee than say John Hancock-- although less than a place with lots of dedicated laboratory such as Novartis
The original story quoted 300,000 sq. ft. today + 25,000 to be added by the "bridge" -- I'm guessing that with the consolidation and organic growth that they'd want access in the next couple of years to about 500,000 sq. ft. -- in an integrated, all-weather campus
statler
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2006
- Messages
- 7,909
- Reaction score
- 498
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
I haven't been following this thread to closely, so apologies if this point has been made before, but Westie's mention of Burlington brings up an idea.
Instead of this so-called Innovation District poaching companies from Cambridge wouldn't it a good thing (in an urbanistic sense) if it ended up poaching companies from the 128/495 belts?
Obviously there isn't nearly enough space to house all of them, but even if a few are convinced that they can set up shop in an urban setting, isn't that a win?
I haven't been following this thread to closely, so apologies if this point has been made before, but Westie's mention of Burlington brings up an idea.
Instead of this so-called Innovation District poaching companies from Cambridge wouldn't it a good thing (in an urbanistic sense) if it ended up poaching companies from the 128/495 belts?
Obviously there isn't nearly enough space to house all of them, but even if a few are convinced that they can set up shop in an urban setting, isn't that a win?
whighlander
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,812
- Reaction score
- 647
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Stat -- apparently according to Mass High Tech a couple of Burlington or Woburn Infotech companies are thinking of moving to the SPID
Obviously neither of them has the cache of Google, nor the depth of pockets
Realistically -- the SPID needs to recruit a few of the smaller but yet successful "fish" before it gets enough street-cred to make a serious pitch for a Google or Amazon
Stat -- apparently according to Mass High Tech a couple of Burlington or Woburn Infotech companies are thinking of moving to the SPID
Obviously neither of them has the cache of Google, nor the depth of pockets
Realistically -- the SPID needs to recruit a few of the smaller but yet successful "fish" before it gets enough street-cred to make a serious pitch for a Google or Amazon
Ron Newman
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 30, 2006
- Messages
- 8,395
- Reaction score
- 9
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
(why is this discussion in the Seaport thread? These ramp parcels are nowhere near Fort Point)
(why is this discussion in the Seaport thread? These ramp parcels are nowhere near Fort Point)
Officejab
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2011
- Messages
- 133
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
http://www.boston.com/Boston/busine...YArlBV3ccuzs5PurGnlO/index.html?p1=News_links
The building by Skanska and Twining will also have 25,000 square feet of retail space on the ground floor, enough for several restaurants and shops.
http://www.boston.com/Boston/busine...YArlBV3ccuzs5PurGnlO/index.html?p1=News_links
The building by Skanska and Twining will also have 25,000 square feet of retail space on the ground floor, enough for several restaurants and shops.
whighlander
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,812
- Reaction score
- 647
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
CZ -- actually in a way they are relevant -- there are similar issues with ramps that need to be addressed in the SPID
Although without exciting my fans too too much -- i think that in the SPID these can be crossed with Gerbil Tubes ;=} ideally with moving walks as the distances can be significant
CZ -- actually in a way they are relevant -- there are similar issues with ramps that need to be addressed in the SPID
Although without exciting my fans too too much -- i think that in the SPID these can be crossed with Gerbil Tubes ;=} ideally with moving walks as the distances can be significant
TheRifleman
Banned
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2008
- Messages
- 4,431
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
I am not a member. This sums up the Seaport District on Banker & Trademans
http://www.bankerandtradesman.com/news148938.html
This could be worth the read.
I am not a member. This sums up the Seaport District on Banker & Trademans
http://www.bankerandtradesman.com/news148938.html
This could be worth the read.
Officejab
Active Member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2011
- Messages
- 133
- Reaction score
- 0
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Why are all the buildings that are being built and proposed all seem to be between 16-22 stories tall.
One Marina Park Drive - 18 Floors
Eleven Marina Park Drive - 18 Floors
Vertex 50 Northern Ave - 18 Floors
Vertex 11 Fan Pier Blvd. - 18 Floors
One Liberty Drive - 16 Floors
Three Liberty Drive - 16 Floors
2 Seaport Square Apartments - 22 Floors
Pier 4 - 21 Floors
319 A Street - 20 Floors
Waterside Place - 19 Floors
Watermark Seaport - Unknown (based on Watermark Cambridge it will be roughly 20 Floors)
One Harbor Shore Drive - 16 Floors
Two Harbor Shore Drive - 21 Floors
With all of these buildings at roughly the same height nothing will catch your attention. The area resembles a bunch of boxes neatly placed one in front of the other. I realize that the FAA handcuffs this neighborhood, but it will be up to the ground level entertainment to give a pulse to the Seaport
Why are all the buildings that are being built and proposed all seem to be between 16-22 stories tall.
One Marina Park Drive - 18 Floors
Eleven Marina Park Drive - 18 Floors
Vertex 50 Northern Ave - 18 Floors
Vertex 11 Fan Pier Blvd. - 18 Floors
One Liberty Drive - 16 Floors
Three Liberty Drive - 16 Floors
2 Seaport Square Apartments - 22 Floors
Pier 4 - 21 Floors
319 A Street - 20 Floors
Waterside Place - 19 Floors
Watermark Seaport - Unknown (based on Watermark Cambridge it will be roughly 20 Floors)
One Harbor Shore Drive - 16 Floors
Two Harbor Shore Drive - 21 Floors
With all of these buildings at roughly the same height nothing will catch your attention. The area resembles a bunch of boxes neatly placed one in front of the other. I realize that the FAA handcuffs this neighborhood, but it will be up to the ground level entertainment to give a pulse to the Seaport
Last edited:
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Answer, evidenced by all Seaport Master Plans:
The #1 objective is maximum density on all developable parcels. Exceptions (largely due to approvals under State waterways regs) are piers and building base height setbacks along Harborwalk.
Answer, evidenced by all Seaport Master Plans:
The #1 objective is maximum density on all developable parcels. Exceptions (largely due to approvals under State waterways regs) are piers and building base height setbacks along Harborwalk.
Shepard
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2009
- Messages
- 3,518
- Reaction score
- 65
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
My best guess is that the Seaport will essentially look like large swaths of downtown DC at full build. Tell me that this is not the Seaport 10 years (100 years?) from now: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washi...=6EqSXXOGxfF_I8CVwGqHxA&cbp=12,21.66,,0,-8.15
It will be better a better neighborhood than what you see here in DC because it will have actual residents. And, it will have waterfront entertainment uses. On the downside, there will (probably) not be rail transit.
My best guess is that the Seaport will essentially look like large swaths of downtown DC at full build. Tell me that this is not the Seaport 10 years (100 years?) from now: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=washi...=6EqSXXOGxfF_I8CVwGqHxA&cbp=12,21.66,,0,-8.15
It will be better a better neighborhood than what you see here in DC because it will have actual residents. And, it will have waterfront entertainment uses. On the downside, there will (probably) not be rail transit.
SeamusMcFly
Senior Member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2008
- Messages
- 2,050
- Reaction score
- 110
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
The 2 previous posts sum it up. FAA restrictions and maximum sq. ft. per parcel. If you can only build to 250 feet, you're going to build to 250 feet. If you need a million square feet, then you will have a fat ass 250 footer.
I'm hoping for some more diversity as we get into some smaller infill projects, but nothing is really showing it yet. There will end up being a steady increase in height as we move away from the water inland, as height restirctions allow for higher buildings away from Logan, but not enough to really be perceptible from building to building. Just a gradual upward slope towards Fort Point and Southie proper. The only reason the slope will appear to head towards downtown is thanks to the lots along Seaport, but in general it will continue the plateau started by the WTC, and will connect it to the new plateau at Fan Pier. Fan Pier and Pier 4 should slope up quickly from the water to the rear of the sites, but again this will not be very perceptible.
Like you say above, it will very much be on the street level. Some (even small) set backs above the 2nd - 4th floors would be nice as well to have buildings not directly on top of us....
The 2 previous posts sum it up. FAA restrictions and maximum sq. ft. per parcel. If you can only build to 250 feet, you're going to build to 250 feet. If you need a million square feet, then you will have a fat ass 250 footer.
I'm hoping for some more diversity as we get into some smaller infill projects, but nothing is really showing it yet. There will end up being a steady increase in height as we move away from the water inland, as height restirctions allow for higher buildings away from Logan, but not enough to really be perceptible from building to building. Just a gradual upward slope towards Fort Point and Southie proper. The only reason the slope will appear to head towards downtown is thanks to the lots along Seaport, but in general it will continue the plateau started by the WTC, and will connect it to the new plateau at Fan Pier. Fan Pier and Pier 4 should slope up quickly from the water to the rear of the sites, but again this will not be very perceptible.
Like you say above, it will very much be on the street level. Some (even small) set backs above the 2nd - 4th floors would be nice as well to have buildings not directly on top of us....
AmericanFolkLegend
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2009
- Messages
- 2,205
- Reaction score
- 224
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
But the Boston Wharf buildings and surrounding Fort Point area have the same issue. Why does that work better (or at least it seems to from my perspective)? Is it the quality of design/construction? The added density (no parks and no side setbacks)?
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Not the same issue. The Seaport Plan is pretty far from the Fort Point layout.
1. Fort Point buildings average 100'.
2. Buildings stand shoulder to shoulder.
3. Narrow alleys and streets, only 3 or 4 wide boulevards (Summer, Melcher, A, Congress).
4. No setbacks from street for plazas, security bollards, etc.
5. Tons of doors on the street, not entire dead streetwalls.
6. Hard to believe, but operable windows lend themselves to improved pedestrian environment.
The lack of parks (or planning of future parks) was never seen as a problem for Fort Point going forward.
What's amazing is how well Fort Point works despite challenges the Seaport doesn't have -- for example groundfloors that are 1/2 above or 1/2 below street level, retail storefronts that lack large ground floor windows, etc.
And Fort Point has tons of sunlight, despite the fact that the stocky buildings together represent one of Boston's densest districts. Point being, density can be expressed in alternative ways besides the Seaport's height + plaza setback schemes.
I will point out that some of the world's best urban planners were involved in Seaport planning from 1998-2000 and made TONS of highly creative recommendations.
In the end, the #1 development goal of Maximum Density (a short-sighted decision IMHO) dictated the outcome: stumps, plazas, rectilinear footprints, wide boulevards, parallel blocks, etc.
Not the same issue. The Seaport Plan is pretty far from the Fort Point layout.
1. Fort Point buildings average 100'.
2. Buildings stand shoulder to shoulder.
3. Narrow alleys and streets, only 3 or 4 wide boulevards (Summer, Melcher, A, Congress).
4. No setbacks from street for plazas, security bollards, etc.
5. Tons of doors on the street, not entire dead streetwalls.
6. Hard to believe, but operable windows lend themselves to improved pedestrian environment.
The lack of parks (or planning of future parks) was never seen as a problem for Fort Point going forward.
What's amazing is how well Fort Point works despite challenges the Seaport doesn't have -- for example groundfloors that are 1/2 above or 1/2 below street level, retail storefronts that lack large ground floor windows, etc.
And Fort Point has tons of sunlight, despite the fact that the stocky buildings together represent one of Boston's densest districts. Point being, density can be expressed in alternative ways besides the Seaport's height + plaza setback schemes.
I will point out that some of the world's best urban planners were involved in Seaport planning from 1998-2000 and made TONS of highly creative recommendations.
In the end, the #1 development goal of Maximum Density (a short-sighted decision IMHO) dictated the outcome: stumps, plazas, rectilinear footprints, wide boulevards, parallel blocks, etc.
whighlander
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,812
- Reaction score
- 647
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Well it's not -- Why -- Because
1) there are piers along the Harbor which stick-out and break-up the super-blockiness
2) no one lives in the Federal District of DC
3) lots of people will live in the SPID
4) due to the BCEC -- lots and lots of people will be milling around looking for somewhere to go and something to do in the evenings
5) Finally -- aside from the situation room in the White House during a crisis, and the National Command Center in the Pentagon 24x7 -- no one works late in DC unless they are ordered to do so -- the SPID will have a lot of people who might view the value of an IPO in terms of working late
All-- in -- All: No comparison -- Ultimately:
-- DC is all about ossified, defensive bureaucracy
-- the SPID is all about innovation, risk taking and ad(venture)
Well it's not -- Why -- Because
1) there are piers along the Harbor which stick-out and break-up the super-blockiness
2) no one lives in the Federal District of DC
3) lots of people will live in the SPID
4) due to the BCEC -- lots and lots of people will be milling around looking for somewhere to go and something to do in the evenings
5) Finally -- aside from the situation room in the White House during a crisis, and the National Command Center in the Pentagon 24x7 -- no one works late in DC unless they are ordered to do so -- the SPID will have a lot of people who might view the value of an IPO in terms of working late
All-- in -- All: No comparison -- Ultimately:
-- DC is all about ossified, defensive bureaucracy
-- the SPID is all about innovation, risk taking and ad(venture)
Shepard
Senior Member
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2009
- Messages
- 3,518
- Reaction score
- 65
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Wow - you've really bought into the mayor's marketing blitz, big time.
Those are just words. From what I can see with feet on the ground, I find nothing innovative, risk taking or adventuresome about the planning, the architecture, or the underground bus that gets you there (admittedly though the crumbling SL tunnel is a bit adventuresome, in the wrong sort of way).
Here's an innovative, risk taking and adventuresome waterfront:
(Amsterdam's Java Island)
Notice a difference?
Wow - you've really bought into the mayor's marketing blitz, big time.
Those are just words. From what I can see with feet on the ground, I find nothing innovative, risk taking or adventuresome about the planning, the architecture, or the underground bus that gets you there (admittedly though the crumbling SL tunnel is a bit adventuresome, in the wrong sort of way).
Here's an innovative, risk taking and adventuresome waterfront:
(Amsterdam's Java Island)
Notice a difference?
whighlander
Senior Member
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,812
- Reaction score
- 647
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Shep -- you fixate on the current state of the SPID
Actually its already come a long long way from when the Papas family had warehouses and there were still a lot of abandoned rails kicking about
Districts in Boston / Cambridge tend to evolve on the scale of generations i.e. 20 to 30 years
1) after an initial burst of activity: World Trade Center complex, Federal Courthouse, BCEC & Westin
2) things slowed for while with only a couple of major projects i.e. Renaissance complex
3) ICA
4) Liberty Wharf
5) then came the beginnings of Fan Pier with Marina Park Drive
6) Now Vertex
Most cities would give their right arm for that much activity in a wasteland of what was there in about 1990
Wow - you've really bought into the mayor's marketing blitz, big time.
Those are just words. From what I can see with feet on the ground, I find nothing innovative, risk taking or adventuresome about the planning, the architecture, or the underground bus that gets you there (admittedly though the crumbling SL tunnel is a bit adventuresome, in the wrong sort of way).
Here's an innovative, risk taking and adventuresome waterfront:
(Amsterdam's Java Island)
Notice a difference?
Shep -- you fixate on the current state of the SPID
Actually its already come a long long way from when the Papas family had warehouses and there were still a lot of abandoned rails kicking about
Districts in Boston / Cambridge tend to evolve on the scale of generations i.e. 20 to 30 years
1) after an initial burst of activity: World Trade Center complex, Federal Courthouse, BCEC & Westin
2) things slowed for while with only a couple of major projects i.e. Renaissance complex
3) ICA
4) Liberty Wharf
5) then came the beginnings of Fan Pier with Marina Park Drive
6) Now Vertex
Most cities would give their right arm for that much activity in a wasteland of what was there in about 1990
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Shepard -
WOW... one can only dream. That's one hell of a collection.
IMHO, Boston rests on its laurels... so many buildings with good chops from 1600 - 1925. Thereafter, it's a mediocre trajectory with a few stellar exceptions. From what I've read, that seems to be the assessment of critics and great architects worldwide.
Shepard -
WOW... one can only dream. That's one hell of a collection.
IMHO, Boston rests on its laurels... so many buildings with good chops from 1600 - 1925. Thereafter, it's a mediocre trajectory with a few stellar exceptions. From what I've read, that seems to be the assessment of critics and great architects worldwide.
czsz
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2007
- Messages
- 6,043
- Reaction score
- 5
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Except DC has a large convention center in the heart of the downtown you agree is nowhere near as lively as the imaginary Seaport you believe the BCEC will animate.
They might want to work late but the early closing hours of the T and pathetic lack of nightlife options in the area (by which I mean late night food as well as the crazier stuff IPO rainmakers might want to indulge in) might put them off a bit.
Hats off to Shepard for dredging up pics of Java Island, which should be exhibited every five pages in this thread to remind people what the Seaport could be.
For shits & giggles, here's that same timespan in Shanghai:
Except DC has a large convention center in the heart of the downtown you agree is nowhere near as lively as the imaginary Seaport you believe the BCEC will animate.
They might want to work late but the early closing hours of the T and pathetic lack of nightlife options in the area (by which I mean late night food as well as the crazier stuff IPO rainmakers might want to indulge in) might put them off a bit.
Hats off to Shepard for dredging up pics of Java Island, which should be exhibited every five pages in this thread to remind people what the Seaport could be.
For shits & giggles, here's that same timespan in Shanghai: