Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

The stadium is not the source of the vitality. I understand that a rarely-used stadium doesn't offer much in the way of entertainment most of the time, but it brings recognition to the district and possibly other developers use it as a hub for their projects.

Patriot Place in Foxborough is a good example of this, as are similar projects in St. Louis, Fremont (CA), and the One Kenmore development in the Fens, not to mention the new Lansdowne St. club. When stadia are built in the right place within the city fabric, they can add tremendously to the area (see Camden Yards).
 
What is it, 81 home games plus potential playoffs?could be as many as 92 games? About 36K in the park plus all the action around it. There are also other events like tours, the minor league night, concerts, etc. How does this compare to one of our live performance theaters? I?d say the Sox do a good job bringing life to the area for much of the year.

Imagine the crowd it could draw in a new park; something along the lines of a Camden Yards, Jacobs Field, or Candlestick. Fact is, if you actually like baseball, you know that Fenway should really go. Nostalgia aside, it?s not a good place to see a game. The seating is unbearably inadequate for the average sized adult male, and the arrangement is better suited for football games.
 
The seating is unbearably inadequate for the average sized adult male
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I think your reasoning may be backwards here...based, at least, on some of the people I've seen trying to squeeze into seats at Fenway.

Anyway, the waterfront is filled with enough "star attractions". In fact, that's practically all it's got - the courthouse, the ICA, the BoA pavillion, the convention center. This was my real point - the area doesn't need another primarily event-based medium. It needs the kind of urbanism that sustains continuous activity.
 
pharmerdave said:
After spending This past weekend in Baltimore for some Red Sox "home" games, something occured to me. Would it be appropriate to assume that 20 years down the road the South Boston Waterfront could possibly be as nice as the Inner Harbor. The Inner Harbor is served by Baltimore's light rail/subway line that is comprable to the Silver Line that runs through the SBW. The major attractions of the Inner Harbor include the city's convention center, Camden Yards, the aquarium, and a Faneuil Hallish type market area called Harbor Place. Although our SBW currently serves just our convention center, it is not impossible to forsee a new Fenway Park constructed in the SBW 20 years from now. The Inner Harbor also has many hotels in the 15-25 story range which more or less corelates to what is planned for the SBW. The Summer St/ Congress St area could develop a Fells Point type vibe with bars and pubs lined up next to each other.
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As for Fenway Park being moved, forget it. Been there, tried that.
The Emperor Has No Clothes, part 5
From the moment John Harrington assumed control of the Red Sox in 1992, the club?s future in Fenway Park has never been far from his mind. In fact, his concern was apparent as early as 1987, when he and then-partner Haywood Sullivan commissioned a study to determine how long the old ballyard could last.

The consultants concluded that $9 million of repairs would keep Fenway structurally sound at least through 2007. The repairs were made. In 1993 Harrington assured the Globe that "Fenway might be antiquated in a lot of ways, but it's not obsolete. It performs the function on the field and it's still a ballpark that's recognized and loved."

But the 1992 season made clear that structural soundness wasn?t enough ? Fenway also had to remain economically viable. That year one divisional rival, the Toronto Blue Jays won the World Series and attracted more than 4,000,000 fans to their futuristic SkyDome. Another, the Baltimore Orioles, redefined state of the art ballpark design with Oriole Park at Camden Yards, and a third, the Cleveland Indians, was already constructing a similar facility. Each of these new parks brought their teams millions of additional dollars with which to sign players.

Ironically, Camden Yards and the Indians? Jacobs Field heralded a change in stadium design toward smaller, old-fashioned, asymmetrical parks like Fenway. The big difference: the new parks added dozens of luxury boxes which rented for upwards of $50,000/year, and contained acres of concessions under the stands.

With this trend apparent, Harrington discussed his vision of a new park with the Globe. "It should be a ballpark," he said. "It should be an oldfashioned ballpark, not a stadium. Not a dome. This city deserves a Camden Yards. And at some point, the city will have one because economically, it has to happen. How you do it, how you finance it is an entirely separate issue, and the toughest issue of all."

The first stadium proposal to reach Harrington?s desk looked nothing like Fenway. In 1993, with the Patriots again threatening to leave, Governor Weld proposed a $700 million megaplex, to house a football stadium and convention center. Although the plan didn?t mention the Red Sox, Harrington expressed some interest in adding a baseball-only park to the plan.

Paul Barrett of the Boston Redevelopment Authority saw another role for the megaplex.

"Everybody loves Fenway Park, and I think everybody would love to see it stay there," Barrett said. "What could happen is the Red Sox could go to an indoor dome facility for two years and allow the charm of Fenway to be rebuilt on site."

This was the most sensible proposal yet. A key obstacle to the renovation of Fenway was what to with the Sox during construction. New England winters limited the amount of work which could be done in the off-season, while the lack of an adequate temporary home prevented the Sox from reconstructing the park during the spring and summer. The Yankees had played two seasons at Shea Stadium while their own park was being rebuilt; perhaps the Red Sox could do something similar.

By early 1994, though, Harrington had concluded that Fenway could not be preserved. He explained, "Fenway Park as we know it is no longer economically feasible. We need 10,000 more seats. It's as simple as that. And there is no way we can put 10,000 more seats in this ballpark. There are traffic and parking problems already without adding 10,000 more seats and the traffic problems that would come with them.

?When people ask about the future of Fenway Park, I say I just don't think we can expand it. I don't think it would be worth it to increase capacity and still end up with a 1912 ballpark. It wouldn't be worth it to knock the existing facility down and rebuild it unless there were a substantial change in the parking facilities and access.?

But even if the Sox couldn?t afford to stay in Fenway, Harrington didn?t know how they could afford to leave. State and local officials made clear that unlike Baltimore, Boston wouldn?t give the local club a blank check for a new ballpark. In fact, Boston wouldn?t pay anything for a new park, only for related costs like land and roads. Harrington had to come up with the money.

In 1995 the Sox proposed a $150 million ballpark on the Fort Point channel in South Boston, conditioned on the city providing free land. The city declined. The Sox rejected a suggestion that they swap the land under Fenway Park for the land the new park would occupy, saying they needed the proceeds from the sale of Fenway to fund the new field.

The next spring Harrington hinted that the quest for an appropriate, affordable site might drive the Sox to the suburbs. "Our first preference would be downtown Boston. Our second would be somewhere else in the city. But if it is the best thing to do, we will go to the suburbs. We are keeping all of our options open."

To Harrington, Fenway had become a white elephant which could no longer generate the revenues needed to field a contender. "We have to compete with Cleveland, we have to compete with the Orioles. They have a big break compared to us with their new stadiums that can generate a lot more income than we do. " Ultimately, he concluded, ?it will not be feasible to be playing in Fenway Park 10 years from now.?

At least not Fenway Park as now configured ? but in 1997 the Sox floated a tantalizing proposal to expand Fenway beyond its current site. By demolishing the vacant former Girls Latin school, closing a couple of streets and possibly even extending the park over the Mass Pike, the Sox might be able to add the seats and amenities they needed over the course of several off-seasons, without disrupting play.

Mayor Menino quickly embraced this option, but Harrington ultimately concluded it would cost too much. He explained, ?Anyone who has ever tried to rebuild or renovate a home knows it's a lot less expensive, substantially less expensive, to build a new house than to renovate it or refurbish it.?

But Harrington had already made a major mistake. He didn?t realize that by writing Fenway?s obituary without a firm plan for replacing it, he was giving Fenway?s supporters all the time they would need to organize opposition to a move.

Those supporters wasted little time. On January 21, 1998, a grassroots coalition of volunteers formed Save Fenway Park! (SVP). SVP?s devoted membership included preservationists and architects -- men and women who not only offered informed criticism of Harrington?s plans, but developed their own credible alternative for keeping the Sox in a remodeled Fenway.

The terms of the stadium debate had been changed forever. Before the Sox could even reveal their plans for New Fenway, SVP was already touting architect Charles Hagenah?s proposal to renovate Old Fenway. Local residents, elected officials, and taxpayers around Massachusetts were listening.

On May 15, Harrington unveiled his model of New Fenway. Pleasing to the eye if not the wallet. New Fenway looked a lot like Old Fenway, and would be built a stone?s throw away. But New Fenway?s price tag would be at least $545,000,000, including $350 million for the park, $50 million for the land, $80 million for two parking garages and $50 million for traffic and other infrastructure improvements. The Sox offered to finance the stadium if the state and city contributed the remaining $195 million.

SVP responded less than two weeks later, announcing that its plan would cost $125 million less. The Sox would save $60 million in construction costs; the taxpayers would save another $65 million. Althouth the Sox and their architects dismissed the SVP design as inadequate and unrealistic, House Speaker Thomas Finneran emerged from an SVP briefing to say he was ?encouraged? that Fenway could be renovated.
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http://www.roadsidephotos.com/baseball/bb99har-5.htm

There are other major differences between Baltimore and the South Boston waterfront. First, the Ravens stadium is very near the Orioles stadium. There are 7,000 parking spaces immediately adjacent to these stadiums, and an additional 5,000 spaces elsewhere in the Inner Harbor area. Consent agreements to meet air quality standards would preclude building anywhere near that number of spaces in South Boston.

The Inner Harbor is Baltimore's only destination to speak of. There is a wonderful food hall in Baltimore called Lexington Market, but it is not at the Inner Harbor. The Inner Harbor food place was built by Rouse, who modeled it after Faneuil / Quincy Market.

The Baltimore Aquarium is better than the New England Aquarium. The Constitution is better than the Constellation.
 
czsz wrote:
Quote:
The seating is unbearably inadequate for the average sized adult male
Czsz wrote:
I think your reasoning may be backwards here...based, at least, on some of the people I've seen trying to squeeze into seats at Fenway.


How is the reasoning backwards? If we were in Houston I might see your point, but still...average is average whether you think the people are too big or not.

I'm 6' even and weigh 200lbs. For a guy, I think this is pretty average size...would you disagree? I feel pinned in the whole game. You jockey for arm room the whole time and god forbid someone should have to squeeze by.

The work they've done in Fenway has been an improvement, but it's still just putting makeup on a pig.

If we could just judge a project on its merits and not on knee-jerk reactions to over simplified generalizations, i.e., a new park will have no character?just look at the Bank North Garden; we could possibly end up with not just any park, but a great park. Not to say that just b/c Kraft did it with Gillette, that it would be done, but it is possible.
 
Why is it that it's perfectly acceptable - admirable - for football fans in New England to brave the elements, even barechested, while there's always such a tussle over the seat sizes at Fenway? Both "inconveniences" are in reality part of the experience fans crave and pay for - in droves. Fenway sells out as much for being Fenway as being home to the Red Sox.

we could possibly end up with not just any park, but a great park. Not to say that just b/c Kraft did it with Gillette, that it would be done, but it is possible.
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Yes, and it's technically possible we could wind up with a better neighborhood than the Back Bay if we let some developer tear it down and start over, but is it probable?

Historical memory is embodied in the historical eccentricities of Fenway in a way it never could have been at Foxboro at the time of its abandonment - and is therefore irreplaceable, no matter what quirk aped from Baltimore or San Francisco is cross-applied.
 
czsz wrote:
Why is it that it's perfectly acceptable - admirable - for football fans in New England to brave the elements, even barechested, while there's always such a tussle over the seat sizes at Fenway?
I think they call it tailgating. Sox stop serving beer at the 7th inning...it's friendly Fenway. Football fans are drunk hours before the game starts. I think if you stopped for a minute you'd see the difference between football and baseball. Furthermore, Baseball is a pass-time. It's a summer game...unlike football where many of the game's greatest moments were made in the snow and rain. Baseball, on the other hand is called on a count of rain. Also, football is a once a week thing, and the entire day is devoted to drinking...which gets you ready for the game and still nobody wanted to sit on the benches at Foxborough...do you remember?

Czsz wrote:
Both "inconveniences" are in reality part of the experience fans crave and pay for - in droves. Fenway sells out as much for being Fenway as being home to the Red Sox.

Do you really think people wouldn?t go to a new park? And Fenway didn?t always sell out. Winning and marketing has a lot to do with. They?re the only team for all of New England. When you have millions of fans, most of whom watch the vast majority of games on their couch (are they watching for the park?) selling out 36k is nothing
Finally, if you?re willing to admit that there?s a ?tussle? over seat sizes?who are the people who ?crave? the uncomfortable seats as part of the experience? If anybody, it?s the casual fan. My girlfriend loves Fenway; she thinks it?s cute. Course, the seat size isn?t a problem for her, the once or twice a year she goes. When all the dust settles at Fenway and the casual fan moves on to whatever?s next, we?re going to be left with your ?experience.?
 
Fenway Park will never be replaced in our lifetime. Maybe, just maybe it will be too obsolete for and preservationist group to save 100 years from now. But for now, it's staying Fenway. That architect Julie or whatever he name is, is a godsend for helping renovate the park.

As for the SBW, there's potential for a new stadium. I've brought this up before, but I think a lacrosse/soccer stadium would be the best bet. People wouldn't get angry at moving Fenway, and both of these teams (Cannons and Revolution) need stadiums. It would not take up as much space, and doesn't need as much parking. This would leave room for more hotels, and hopefully (I know you all hate this) a downsized Waterside Place type of development.
 
All this talk of ball parks made me think about regular parks...I think it would be nice if we could get a decent sized park to swallow up some space and make parcels a little bit smaller...maybe that would force builders to make these buildings more urban and less like a suburban office park. Maybe putting it next to the Convention Center, on the parcel surrounded by Summer St., South Boston Bypass Rd and W Service Rd (I'm getting these names off of Live Local) would help spur some development on the Fort Point Channel and down by Gillette.
 
maybe that would force builders to make these buildings more urban and less like a suburban office park
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...or create a coalition of citizens "concerned" about shadows.

I would support this only if some of the absurd park redundancy already awkwardly chopping up the area could be reverted.
 
I haven't really gone through SBW too much, aside from driving to the Harpoon brewery for some delicious brews. I wasn't aware that there was a lot of parks there already. Where are these parks anyway?
 
The particularly preposterous example is the doubled-up parkland between WTC East and the Legal Test Kitchen/Renaissance Hotel. Even one of these would have been underutilized. But two? Away from the water?
 
... and the two are separated by a garage ramp moat. You may as well put crocodiles in it; no park user would notice. I hope the western half, next to WTC, will eventually get built up.

justin
 
It's undergoing substantial work at the moment, presumably in preparation for the Morton's restaurant. Should get more use when the restaurant opens.
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Re: South Boston Seaport

from today's Globe:
Jimmy's site being reborn on waterfront

By Thomas C. Palmer Jr., Globe Staff | November 2, 2007

Jimmy's Harborside Restaurant, a landmark on the South Boston Waterfront for decades, will be replaced by two mostly glass buildings with two large restaurants and a waterside public plaza.

But it appears that Jimmy's, since 1955 a dining destination for business folks, pols, and tourists that was demolished earlier this year, won't return.

Cresset Development, which recently signed a 75-year lease for the site, filed building plans with the state this week for 69,000 square feet of restaurant and office space at the Northern Avenue location and will separately submit plans to the Boston Redevelopment Authority today.

Ed Nardi, Cresset president, said the initial efforts to get a Jimmy's at the location have not been successful and the restaurant now is not in the "initial mix." However, he said Cresset has no plans "to exclude them from eventual participation."

Kim Doulos, granddaughter of restaurant founder Jimmy Doulos, did not return calls for comment.

She previously has talked about the family's intention to renovate the old place or open a new restaurant at the location. Jimmy Doulos died in 1981, and two generations of his family ran the restaurant until it closed in January 2006. The Douloses were partners at one time with Cresset, but they are no longer officially involved in redevelopment plans.

Nardi said he continues to talk with the Douloses, who have said they still own the huge red "Jimmy's" sign that lit up the waterfront for decades when little else did. But he and officials of the Massachusetts Port Authority, which owns the site, said the cost of building restaurants has skyrocketed, making it harder for independents such as the Douloses to compete against large national chains.

The old restaurant, added onto over the years since teenage immigrant Jimmy Doulos opened the Liberty Cafeteria in 1924, had about 30,000 square feet of space and 325 seats on two floors.

"They were pioneers," said Patrick B. Moscaritolo, president of the Greater Boston Convention & Visitors Bureau. "When you think of Jimmy's and Anthony's, today's waterfront looks nothing like it." Anthony's Pier 4 is still doing business nearby and is slated to be redeveloped.

"The irony is that as the area is burgeoning with new businesses and opportunities, a historic element that made the waterfront a place to go unfortunately looks like it won't be there," said Moscaritolo.

Cresset's plans include two modern buildings - one two-story, one four-story - that will be edged on the waterfront by an extension of the city's Harborwalk pathway.

In contrast to the old Jimmy's building, a 420-foot-long warehouse-like structure that walled off access to the harbor, the new buildings will be spaced to allow waterviews from two key locations - at the ends of D Street and Harbor View Lane. The buildings' glass exteriors will also give them a transparency that will add to the feeling of openness.

"The site is unique in its own right," said Nardi. "One of our guiding principals was making it more accessible to the public."

The new buildings, designed by David Manfredi of Elkus Manfredi Architects of Boston, will house one large restaurant each. Nardi said he has spoken to McCormick & Schmick's, as well as others, about being tenants.

A spokeswoman for McCormick & Schmick's could not say if the chain had plans for the old Jimmy's location in Boston, but she confirmed that the company has the rights for the use of the Jimmy's name.

The top two floors of the taller building, closer to Fish Pier, will house office space, with one or two other, smaller restaurants also taking ground-floor space, Nardi said.

The Jimmy's site is being reborn just as the South Boston Waterfront finally is coming to life, after decades of promised development.

Across the street from the site is developer Joe Fallon's Park Lane Seaport residential complex, with three new restaurants. Morton's opened a second steak house in Boston just yesterday, in the World Trade Center East tower - only a short distance from where Jimmy Doulos's ship-shaped bar served drinks.

In addition, Sebastian's has opened up on Seaport Boulevard, and a new fine dining establishment is planned at the Marriott Renaissance Boston Hotel, which opens in January nearby at D and Congress streets.

"In terms of retail amenities, there's a lot more than there was 15 months ago," said Lowell L. Richards III, the Port Authority's chief development officer.

Richards wouldn't say how much Cresset is paying in rent, except that it is more than the $200,000 a year the Port Authority got from Jimmy's in recent years. The rent will be based on revenues.

"If he does well, we do well," Richards said.

State and city approvals for Cresset's plans could come as early as spring, when construction could begin.

"The dream would be one restaurant there by Sail Boston in July 2009," when the tall ships are slated to visit the Hub again, Richards said.
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http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2007/11/02/jimmys_site_being_reborn_on_waterfront/

There was also an announcement yesterday that a Morton's Steak House (the second in Boston) would be opening in this area.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Morton's is pretty much staffed and ready to go. They were (are still?) holding test meals and I imagine they will open very soon.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Banker & Tradesman said:
New Menu Cooked Up For Former Restaurant

Boston?s Cresset Group Files Plans to Redevelop Jimmy?s Harborside Property Along Waterfront
By Thomas Grillo
Reporter
JimmysHarborsideRestaurant.jpg


Pilings are the only remnants of the former Jimmy?s Harborside Restaurant. By 2009, the site will be replaced with a pair of buildings along the South Boston waterfront.

Two years after Jimmy?s Harborside served its last cup of creamy fish chowder, the cherished restaurant will be replaced with glass-and-steel buildings overlooking Boston Harbor.

Cresset Group, a Boston-based developer, has filed plans with the Boston Redevelopment Authority for two buildings on Northern Avenue, a kiosk and a pier intended to increase public access and use of the harbor on the 65,000-square-foot site.

The $35 million project is the latest proposal that is expected to transform an underused section of South Boston into a vibrant neighborhood. The Fallon Co. recently broke ground on Fan Pier, a $3 billion development that spans 21 acres. Gale International has proposed Seaport Square, which will include 5.5 million square feet of office, retail and housing. Pier 4 will offer 385,000 square feet of offices, 200 condominiums and a 250-room hotel. Waterside Place and Waterside Crossing are expected to total 200 condominiums and 1.7 million square feet of retail.

?Of all the building projects on South Boston?s waterfront, the Jimmy?s Harborside redevelopment is probably one of the smallest,? said David Manfredi, principal of Elkus Manfredi Architects and a member of the design team. ?But it?s probably one of the most important because it creates water views that haven?t existed for a long time.?

Last week, fewer than two dozen people attended a Jimmy?s Harborside public hearing at the James Condon Elementary School on D Street. Other than a handful of planning students from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, the attendees were mostly from Massport, the BRA or the development team.

Cresset has proposed two buildings bounded by Boston Harbor, the Boston Marine Industrial Park, Northern Avenue and the Boston Fish Pier. Both facilities will house restaurants on the first and second floors. The building to the east will be 2 stories high while the second will contain four levels. The upper floors of the taller structure will feature office space. In addition, a small kiosk will be erected onsite, but the developer is not sure how it will be used.

?For us, it?s a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to build on the harbor,? said Edward G. Nardi, Cresset?s president. ?These chances come along once every 50 years and we think it?s a prime amenity, the lungs of the Seaport District, where people want to get to the water or patronize the lower two ground floors because they will be very open. Hopefully, there will be lots of good restaurants to attract people and create synergy with the other nearby projects. This could become a prime destination.?

Broad Support

The project is expected to revitalize Parcel E, where the Jimmy?s once sat, which has been vacant since 2005. A handful of pilings are the only thing that?s left of the restaurant founded by Jimmy Doulos, who opened the Liberty Cafeteria, as it was once called, to serve fishermen. Later, after it was dubbed ?Home of the Chowder King,? it drew praise from critics and attracted followers nationwide.

Plans include a new HarborWalk section in South Boston, adjacent to the Bank of America Pavilion, which would enhance public access to and along the waterfront. In addition, upon completion in 2009, two additional view corridors to Boston Harbor will be created at D Street and Harborview Lane.

State Rep. Brian P. Wallace, a South Boston Democrat, was the only neighborhood resident at the public hearing. He praised the developer and said the project has broad support among residents because Nardi has kept the neighbors informed of his plans.

?This project is good; it?s well-done. It looks good,? Wallace said. ?There won?t be any fight from the neighborhood on this one.?

Wallace added that he, like many longtime South Boston residents, had hoped that Jimmy?s would return following the new construction. But the family could no longer compete with the chain restaurants.

?We were concerned about losing Jimmy?s,? he said. ?If there was a chance that Jimmy?s could return to the site, we wanted it back because it was there for so many years. I?ll bet 75 percent of the staff was from the neighborhood. But time has moved on and, sadly, Jimmy?s is no longer viable.?

Jamie Fay, a planning consultant at Fort Point Assoc., noted that the project is a transit-oriented development because the MBTA?s Silver Line stops nearby. In addition, he said, while the new buildings will not have any parking, water taxis will dock at the site and other patrons can take cabs to the restaurant. Those who choose to drive, he said, can take advantage of valet service or park in nearby public garages.

Fay said the shared-parking concept, as championed by the Massachusetts Port Authority, allows office employees to park between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m., and restaurant users to use the same spaces after dark. As a result, not every project will need parking spaces, he said.

?When this project is completed, someone can get into a water taxi in Charlestown and get off at the new pier to visit any of the restaurants along Northern Avenue,? Fay said. ?It?s exciting.?
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NLA
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

2 and 4 floors? is there any reason for this?
 
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