Silver Line at 21: Do people like it now?

[Charlie_mta]

I was re-reading this old BSRA Roll Sign when you posted the question about the Silver Line. It's all here from 1972. I really wish they had implemented the Green Line streetcar service connecting to the Tremont Street tunnel via the old unused portion of the Green Line tunnel. They even have engineering drawings showing how it would go under the Mass Turnpike. I also remember almost buying a condo in the South End around the mid-90's where the real estate agent assured me there would soon be electric trolley buses on the corridor. Whoops!

To answer your original question: NO, I don't like the Silver Line, and I think it was a HUGE missed opportunity for a better streetcar option.

Wow, that's quite a find! Lot's of detail in there for LRT to Nubian and all the way to Mattapan, plus some other proposals for the metro area.

 

[Riverside]

I was re-reading this old BSRA Roll Sign when you posted the question about the Silver Line. It's all here from 1972. I really wish they had implemented the Green Line streetcar service connecting to the Tremont Street tunnel via the old unused portion of the Green Line tunnel. They even have engineering drawings showing how it would go under the Mass Turnpike. I also remember almost buying a condo in the South End around the mid-90's where the real estate agent assured me there would soon be electric trolley buses on the corridor. Whoops!

To answer your original question: NO, I don't like the Silver Line, and I think it was a HUGE missed opportunity for a better streetcar option.

Holy shit.

 

[Charlie_mta]

To answer your original question: NO, I don't like the Silver Line, and I think it was a HUGE missed opportunity for a better streetcar option.

The one silver lining (no pun intended) about the Silver Line on Washington Street is that it was done so half-assed with such minimal investment that it won't be hard to justify ditching it and replacing it with light rail. No angst about sunk costs for the Washington Street Silver Line since it is really just another street running bus line, not BRT. That half-baked bus line has to go down in history as one of the most blatantly racist transit shafting of a minority community in the history of the US.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Important to note the projected ridership differences between an LRT Washington St. and the "BRT" one. SL4+SL5 to Nubian did a combined 16,100 daily boardings as of 2018. The most recent projections for an LRT corridor with thru service behind prepayment to Downtown projected out at 34,300 daily boardings in the 2004 Program for Mass Transportation...more than twice as much.

The PMT gave conversion a low rating because it assumed SL Phase III would eventually be built and that 99%+ of riders would just be flipping over Silver-to-Green with hardly any new ridership generation. Clearly that is not how it's gone, as ridership has underperformed by half...chalked up to the lack of behind-prepayment transfers downtown. In terms of total ridership, GLX-Nubian was the 3rd highest ridership project that the 2004 PMT evaluated, after the Urban Ring and NSRL.

 

[Java King]

In terms of total ridership, GLX-Nubian was the 3rd highest ridership project that the 2004 PMT evaluated, after the Urban Ring and NSRL.

Imagine the ridership from the 1972 proposal "Alternative B2:" Construct a new light rail facility between Boylston Street and Mattapan via Dudley and Grove Hall.

By the way, if ArchBoston Forum members are not a member of the BSRA and you enjoy transit, you should really think about joining. It's only $25 a year for the monthly BSRA Roll Sign publication, and they always have nice photos and updates about the MBTA. Plus, TONS of great history and facts too. www.thebsra.org

 

[king_vibe]

The one silver lining (no pun intended) about the Silver Line on Washington Street is that it was done so half-assed with such minimal investment that it won't be hard to justify ditching it and replacing it with light rail. No angst about sunk costs for the Washington Street Silver Line since it is really just another street running bus line, not BRT. That half-baked bus line has to go down in history as one of the most blatantly racist transit shafting of a minority community in the history of the US.

Your thinking is sound but I don’t agree. To the MBTA this is a done deal, even one to be proud of, and “those people” have gotten all the investment they’re going to get.

 

[Brattle Loop]

Your thinking is sound but I don’t agree. To the MBTA this is a done deal, even one to be proud of, and “those people” have gotten all the investment they’re going to get.

Ultimately it's not up to them. The T doesn't make those decisions, the state does. If the politicians should come around to thinking that the Silver Line is woefully insufficient (admittedly, politicians' collective ability to recognize reality is something of a crapshoot), then it doesn't much matter if the T doesn't institutionally care about better service, the state is their boss. (My view is that it's not the T's fault the Silver Line was deemed acceptable near as much as it was the politicians then in power.). The point that there's little in the way of sunk costs is a valid one; no one says that infrastructure can't be re-used if LRT to Nubian comes to Washington. If anything the cheapness with which the Silver Line was done on the south end deprives the inertial opposition of an argument; it's not like politicians clamoring for better service would be talking about abandoning expensive infrastructure in a way that would make the project wasteful.

 

[king_vibe]

Ultimately it's not up to them. The T doesn't make those decisions, the state does. If the politicians should come around to thinking that the Silver Line is woefully insufficient (admittedly, politicians' collective ability to recognize reality is something of a crapshoot), then it doesn't much matter if the T doesn't institutionally care about better service, the state is their boss. (My view is that it's not the T's fault the Silver Line was deemed acceptable near as much as it was the politicians then in power.). The point that there's little in the way of sunk costs is a valid one; no one says that infrastructure can't be re-used if LRT to Nubian comes to Washington. If anything the cheapness with which the Silver Line was done on the south end deprives the inertial opposition of an argument; it's not like politicians clamoring for better service would be talking about abandoning expensive infrastructure in a way that would make the project wasteful.

I said that the thinking is sound! I agree with the thought process. But the decision has been made, and we know who gets money and who doesn’t. It’s over. A rapid transit line to Nubian is not even on the horizon’s horizon.

(Now that I think about it, the fact that the MBTA has spent pennies on a bus line for now an entire generation might actually be proof, to them, that they do not need to invest in real transit to Nubian Sq.)

 

[Brattle Loop]

I said that the thinking is sound! I agree with the thought process. But the decision has been made, and we know who gets money and who doesn’t. It’s over. A rapid transit line to Nubian is not even on the horizon’s horizon.

(Now that I think about it, the fact that the MBTA has spent pennies on a bus line for now an entire generation might actually be proof, to them, that they do not need to invest in real transit to Nubian Sq.)

I mean, yeah, if nothing changes politically, nothing's going to change with regards to the Silver Line. Political decisions are inherently subject to change. Should the political winds shift, whether due to advocacy, shifting coalitions, or just the vagaries of what specific power-brokers choose to care about, there's no structural reason why Nubian transit couldn't go from nowhere on the horizon straight to the front burner (especially since it has several significant arguments in favor of it). I'm not saying it will happen, nor that it's necessarily likely to happen, only that it would be a relatively-easy project to push forward if doing so were to become politically expedient. South Coast Rail (an objectively less useful project being done in a particularly stupid manner) is actively getting built after many fits and starts, in significant part because it was deemed (in the end) politically expedient to do so. The MBTA doesn't really come into it, it's not really a transit argument, it's a political argument. They got away with the crud that is the Silver Line because, then, and subsequently, Nubian's interests were deemed expendable by the politicians. That's the part that has to get changed. (Ideally that would be by replacing the politicians with ones who actually understand how transit works at its best, but that seems unlikely.)

 

[Tallguy]

I was re-reading this old BSRA Roll Sign when you posted the question about the Silver Line. It's all here from 1972. I really wish they had implemented the Green Line streetcar service connecting to the Tremont Street tunnel via the old unused portion of the Green Line tunnel. They even have engineering drawings showing how it would go under the Mass Turnpike. I also remember almost buying a condo in the South End around the mid-90's where the real estate agent assured me there would soon be electric trolley buses on the corridor. Whoops!

To answer your original question: NO, I don't like the Silver Line, and I think it was a HUGE missed opportunity for a better streetcar option.

Do you have access to those engineering drawings?

 

[Lrfox]

I mean, yeah, if nothing changes politically, nothing's going to change with regards to the Silver Line. Political decisions are inherently subject to change. Should the political winds shift, whether due to advocacy, shifting coalitions, or just the vagaries of what specific power-brokers choose to care about, there's no structural reason why Nubian transit couldn't go from nowhere on the horizon straight to the front burner (especially since it has several significant arguments in favor of it).

Absolutely. I can easily see this being tied to the equity discussion that has taken hold in political circles. Boston politics is diversifying. Nubian has seen pretty significant interest and investment in recent years. There's a lot of emphasis on racial and economic disparities in the city (i.e. discussions about how rich/white the Seaport is, liquor license distribution, etc.). If the right people want to highlight how Nubian/Dudley used to have rail service before it was realigned, rapidly gentrifying Somerville and Medford (both of which already have rapid transit) were the recent recipients of an extremely expensive LRT extension, and Nubian has been given short shrift with the Silver Line, then there's a good chance an upgrade could gain traction.

 

[king_vibe]

Absolutely. I can easily see this being tied to the equity discussion that has taken hold in political circles. Boston politics is diversifying. Nubian has seen pretty significant interest and investment in recent years. There's a lot of emphasis on racial and economic disparities in the city (i.e. discussions about how rich/white the Seaport is, liquor license distribution, etc.). If the right people want to highlight how Nubian/Dudley used to have rail service before it was realigned, rapidly gentrifying Somerville and Medford (both of which already have rapid transit) were the recent recipients of an extremely expensive LRT extension, and Nubian has been given short shrift with the Silver Line, then there's a good chance an upgrade could gain traction.

If anything, it'll go the other direction. Community groups across the country have fought tooth and nail AGAINST rapid transit with the argument that infrastructure investment invites gentrification and causes displacement of underprivileged residents.

Rich people fight against transit because it'll bring the poors, poor people fight against transit because it'll bring the rich.

 

[bigpicture7]

Rich people fight against transit because it'll bring the poors, poor people fight against transit because it'll bring the rich.

Good leadership and a plan for steady, incremental change can make it go in the direction Lrfox describes. Which doesn't make it likely, but it makes it possible.

If you are a wise leader, you don't announce a grand plan to spend billions specifically to connect Nubian with the core via light rail in a "big monumental project." You announce a plan to convert the entire SL system eventually over many years, spending a little at a time to gradually extend the LR network, and maintain busses in the mean time. Transit system improvement should be an expected, continuous, and always ongoing effort. What you describe happens when there's a dearth of improvements over half a century, followed by a gazillion dollar expansion, followed by a dearth of improvements (rinse, repeat). If it is always ongoing, all the time, throughout the system, then opportunism necessarily is tempered.

 

[king_vibe]

Good leadership and a plan for steady, incremental change can make it go in the direction Lrfox describes. Which doesn't make it likely, but it makes it possible.

If you are a wise leader, you don't announce a grand plan to spend billions specifically to connect Nubian with the core via light rail in a "big monumental project." You announce a plan to convert the entire SL system eventually over many years, spending a little at a time to gradually extend the LR network, and maintain busses in the mean time. Transit system improvement should be an expected, continuous, and always ongoing effort. What you describe happens when there's a dearth of improvements over half a century, followed by a gazillion dollar expansion, followed by a dearth of improvements (rinse, repeat). If it is always ongoing, all the time, throughout the system, then opportunism necessarily is tempered.

How does "gradually extending the LR network" work in this case? They should build a light rail line three blocks from Nubian to Cass? Or from South Station to Stuart Street?

 

[bigpicture7]

How does "gradually extending the LR network" work in this case? They should build a light rail line three blocks from Nubian to Cass? Or from South Station to Stuart Street?

They should extend it one foot at a time if that is what it takes to convey the narrative that improvement will always be ongoing, incremental, and expected. The way slowly adding a 4th lane to a 3-lane interstate, along it's length, is yawn-generating non-news.

 

[ant8904]

poor people fight against transit because it'll bring the rich.

Perhaps that's true nationally, but in the local context of Nubian, doesn't the community groups representing the area constantly grip of getting gipped of what they were promised? So barring all the visible chagrin from Nubian groups are mistaken, just saying the locals will start to oppose LRT conversion is just speculative conjecture rather than based on any pieces of information we know for Nubian.

But the decision has been made, and we know who gets money and who doesn’t. It’s over. A rapid transit line to Nubian is not even on the horizon’s horizon.

While an older post now, I have to still quote it this also sounds more of a rebuttal by stating it like a fact rather than refuting anything Brattle Loop said. You not wrong about the MBTA based on their history, but this doesn't change that the state can and had shift on various policies as people in various positions changes over time.

 

[Lrfox]

If anything, it'll go the other direction. Community groups across the country have fought tooth and nail AGAINST rapid transit with the argument that infrastructure investment invites gentrification and causes displacement of underprivileged residents.

Rich people fight against transit because it'll bring the poors, poor people fight against transit because it'll bring the rich.

Eh, I don't see that necessarily being the case in Nubian. I don't doubt that there will always be concerns about gentrification (with or without LRT), but I would wager they'd be in the minority (by a large margin) compared to supporters. I remember complaints about gentrification with the GLX. You also still hear them in Fall River, Taunton, and New Bedford with the South Coast Rail extension. But the benefits (real and perceived) to people and businesses in those areas far outweighed concerns about gentrification. I don't see why Nubian would be different. A LRT upgrade to the SL5 would provide an immediate practical benefit to existing riders and Nubian businesses (whereas gentrification is a much slower process). It would also mark a major commitment to investing in a community which has long felt ignored by the city and state. I can't see fear of long-term gentrification outweighing enthusiasm for immediate improvement to mobility and accessibility.

Will it happen? Definitely not any time soon. But I could see momentum building if the right people started pushing for it.

 

[clam]

I moved right as they finished these lanes, but it was insane how different it felt riding these to Jackson Square and taking the Orange Line vs. Silver to Dudley and then transferring/walking home.

The silver line 4/5 would have a better legacy if it could at least be expanded to link in the other high capacity routes and BRT service around there. Right now it's a worse service with better branding. It feels insulting to ride compared to Orange Line and the new bus service

The reserved bus lanes need to be moved from the edges of the street (where people illegally park) to the center of the road, similar to the new Columbus Ave Bus Lanes:

 

[king_vibe]

I moved right as they finished these lanes, but it was insane how different it felt riding these to Jackson Square and taking the Orange Line vs. Silver to Dudley and then transferring/walking home.

The silver line 4/5 would have a better legacy if it could at least be expanded to link in the other high capacity routes and BRT service around there. Right now it's a worse service with better branding. It feels insulting to ride compared to Orange Line and the new bus service

What BRT? There’s no BRT in Boston.

 

[Smuttynose]

They should extend it one foot at a time if that is what it takes to convey the narrative that improvement will always be ongoing, incremental, and expected. The way slowly adding a 4th lane to a 3-lane interstate, along it's length, is yawn-generating non-news.

It seems like almost any project the MBTA tackles inevitably gets delayed, so I can only imagine how long a major project they are "gradually" pursuing would take to complete, but confidently not within any of our lifetimes. I'd prefer there just be a firm commitment to completing it within a set period, say within 5 years, with the expectation that it would actually take 10-15.