Silver Line at 21: Do people like it now?

[Java King]

Do you have access to those engineering drawings?

Maybe "engineering drawings" was a bit too strong. I probably should have said "Detailed Drawings"
They are in the PDF that I attached. Refer to Page #9.

 

[Charlie_mta]

It seems like almost any project the MBTA tackles inevitably gets delayed, so I can only imagine how long a major project they are "gradually" pursuing would take to complete, but confidently not within any of our lifetimes. I'd prefer there just be a firm commitment to completing it within a set period, say within 5 years, with the expectation that it would actually take 10-15.

GLX to Medford only took 75 years.

 

[bigpicture7]

GLX to Medford only took 75 years.

Actually GLX to Medford is precisely the reference model for what this would need to NOT be. The hype machine was revved up and running for decade(s), giving the speculative vultures plenty of time to circle.

The fact that the T sucks doesn't mean we have to assume it "must always suck." There's no point to these what-would-be-a-good-way-to-do-things exercises if a default incoming assumption needs to be that the "T must permanently suck forever" as a non-negotiable input to such exercises. If you think about it, that assumption negates any sort of useful/interesting thought exercise to begin with.

In fact, @Smuttynose is basically proving my point with their complaint (which I agree is valid retrospectively). Precisely because the way the T always operates is: politicians announce BIG PLANs, hold a BIG photo-op ground breaking, then eff up the project and delay the BIG PLANs by a decade, and then finally get things somewhat on track and hold another BIG photo-op....that transit improvements are enabled to be opportunistic gentrification-fests in the first place.

If we are making analogies, the better one would be to the T's "Transformation" programs (Green Line Transformation, Organge Line Transformation, etc). They have been running in the background for several years now. Most of the general public has forgotten about them. Their press releases are as boring as watching paint dry (they usually include photos of wire bundles). In reality (if these projects actually work, which is a separate question) they will result in dramatic headway and net trip time improvements that could transform outlying transit stops from sucky-commute to hidden-gem commute locations. And those living in and moving to those locations will enjoy the benefits of improved transit connectivity without (as much) cost of living/cost of ownership bloat. Can we expand this model from line improvement to line extension or line mode shift model? -- that's the key question, and I actually think we can, or at least that it's worth a shot in trying.

 

[Arborway]

I'm trying to imagine city and state officials riding the SL1 from the airport when it opened. It's by far the most rattily, loud, indigent bus routes I've taken in the city. The little intermission at Silverline Way where the driver has to exit the bus and manually switch the gear at the back feels especially 3rd world. Then the wildly overbuilt seaport tunnel which is (of course) falling apart and has a road surface worse than the Ted Williams somehow.

Was is always this bad?

All I can be sure of is that the pavement was visibly crumbling, uneven as hell, and permanently waterlogged in 2007.

It felt like an ancient piece of infrastructure less than three years after it opened.

If you told me it was paved by a shop class with a few hundred bags of Quikrete, I'd believe you.

 

[as02143]

Given that even the PMT imagined that there would be few net new riders for LRT to Nubian, i.e. the LRT would draw from other buses or the OL, it seems like that's not a particularly efficient investment without some additional land use changes for more density and activity along Washington St.

I think people also forgot that while the SL was an MBTA Route all of the dedicated bus facilities had to be agreed to by the City. The City, its electeds, and really the residents of the then-gentrifying South End are why those bus lanes were designed as overflow parking lanes shared with buses and bikes.

That being said, Boston has seemed to have a major change of heart over the last five years.

The reserved bus lanes need to be moved from the edges of the street (where people illegally park) to the center of the road, similar to the new Columbus Ave Bus Lanes:

These lanes on Columbus Avenue are proof that the City can think better and bigger with the roadway.

What does seem appropriate for planning in the short term is a levelling up of the Silver Line on Washington Street similar to what Charlie_mta says above. If i remember well, the cost was around $10mn for 0.75 miles of Columbus Ave., Or $13-14mn per mile.

Assuming costs haven't changed that dramatically, yet, the SL Washington through the South End and near Tufts is approximately 1.8 miles. That would be around $30 million for a high class center bus way.

I do fear that the worst congestion for buses is actually from Tufts to South Station or Downtown Crossing. I have a friend that lives in the South End and works just at State Street. They usually transfer at Tufts because it's more reliable to connect with the Orange Line despite the connection distance and wait times.

 

[Teban54]

Given that even the PMT imagined that there would be few net new riders for LRT to Nubian, i.e. the LRT would draw from other buses or the OL, it seems like that's not a particularly efficient investment without some additional land use changes for more density and activity along Washington St.

The PMT said there would be few net new riders from a completed Silver Line Phase III with a downtown bus tunnel. Not a fully surface route with tons of congestion from Tufts inbound.

F-Line showed earlier that the PMT ridership estimate was about 2x of SL4/5's current ridership.

 

[JeffDowntown]

If we are making analogies, the better one would be to the T's "Transformation" programs (Green Line Transformation, Organge Line Transformation, etc). They have been running in the background for several years now. Most of the general public has forgotten about them. Their press releases are as boring as watching paint dry (they usually include photos of wire bundles). In reality (if these projects actually work, which is a separate question) they will result in dramatic headway and net trip time improvements that could transform outlying transit stops from sucky-commute to hidden-gem commute locations. And those living in and moving to those locations will enjoy the benefits of improved transit connectivity without (as much) cost of living/cost of ownership bloat. Can we expand this model from line improvement to line extension or line mode shift model? -- that's the key question, and I actually think we can, or at least that it's worth a shot in trying.

Of course none of the T magical "transformation" programs mean squat if the stations are collapsing and the track is in total disarray. (And let's not even get started on our bargain basement CRRC rail cars.)

Basics matter if you are running a complex system like transit. And the T sucks at basics.

 

[bigpicture7]

Of course none of the T magical "transformation" programs mean squat if the stations are collapsing and the track is in total disarray. (And let's not even get started on our bargain basement CRRC rail cars.)

Basics matter if you are running a complex system like transit. And the T sucks at basics.

Fully agree. My post was solely aimed at how to communicate and manage system enhancement/expansion. To your point, It must be concurrently true that the T handles these ongoing "basics" in parallel, but I don't think the need to do so invalidates my suggestions about communicating/managing enhancement and expansion.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Fully agree. My post was solely aimed at how to communicate and manage system enhancement/expansion. To your point, It must be concurrently true that the T handles these ongoing "basics" in parallel, but I don't think the need to do so invalidates my suggestions about communicating/managing enhancement and expansion.

I agree with the value of the communication.

But that communication only works if the basics are being covered. Otherwise it sounds like the T is smearing lipstick on a pig (which they are).

 

[MBTA DMA]

Only ever ridden SL1 to the airport and back.
It's a crazy example of excellent public transit switching to terrible public transit in one short journey. Couldn't believe it when I first took it.
South station to silver line way, excellent. Integrated with subway at south station, electrified, it's own right of way tunnel, big airy stations. Perfect, no need for it to be a train.
Then it stops and the driver gets out (what's he doing? I think to myself). The bus dies and a diesel engine chugs in to life. From there on its doing circles of the seaport stuck in traffic fretting about making my flight. Trying to figure out what direction I'm actually going, wondering if suitcases are going to tumble as we take a tight bend to pick people up what seems like 20 feet from where we dropped them off 10 mins ago. There's a ramp, lets use that, wait no, that's only for cops.

The new route to chelsea looks great and if they could only sort out the second half of seaport, SL1 would be great too.

At Silver Line Way while the bus switches from electric to diesel, the reason why the operator goes outside to the back of the bus is to tie the ropes of the two poles on two little circular blades mounted at the back of the bus for each pole. They do this because even though the poles of the bus automatically secure themselves on the roof through the little hatches, the poles can go up unexpectedly and if so they could scratch the roof of the TWT or the roof of the airport roadways. The image below shows what it looks like after an operator ties their poles. Even though I am a passenger, I have also learned how to tie the poles of the DMAs because I was always interested in what the operators were doing going at the back of the bus.

 

[BosMaineiac]

At Silver Line Way while the bus switches from electric to diesel, the reason why the operator goes outside to the back of the bus is to tie the ropes of the two poles on two little circular blades mounted at the back of the bus for each pole. They do this because even though the poles of the bus automatically secure themselves on the roof through the little hatches, the poles can go up unexpectedly and if so they could scratch the roof of the TWT or the roof of the airport roadways. The image below shows what it looks like after an operator ties their poles. Even though I am a passenger, I have also learned how to tie the poles of the DMAs because I was always interested in what the operators were doing going at the back of the bus.View attachment 38889

The "blades" that the ropes are tied to are actually called cleats. Exactly the same thing you would use to tie a boat to.

 

[Java King]

My family from the Midwest is looking for different neighborhoods for a hotel in July. I told them the Seaport is hip and cool with youthful energy, but it's only connected to the rest of the transportation system by an electric underground bus. In my opinion, it's not as convenient as staying at a hotel near the Red, Green, or Orange lines in Back Bay or downtown as examples.

 

[Charlie_mta]

The "blades" that the ropes are tied to are actually called cleats. Exactly the same thing you would use to tie a boat to.

Kind of a no-brainer to have battery powered electric buses on this line.

 

[millerm277]

At Silver Line Way while the bus switches from electric to diesel, the reason why the operator goes outside to the back of the bus is to tie the ropes of the two poles on two little circular blades mounted at the back of the bus for each pole. They do this because even though the poles of the bus automatically secure themselves on the roof through the little hatches, the poles can go up unexpectedly and if so they could scratch the roof of the TWT or the roof of the airport roadways. The image below shows what it looks like after an operator ties their poles. Even though I am a passenger, I have also learned how to tie the poles of the DMAs because I was always interested in what the operators were doing going at the back of the bus.View attachment 38889

This seems absurdly inefficient.

They really went to all this trouble to build a bus that could switch between both diesel + electric and couldn't be bothered to put in a redundant interlock/fully automatic system so the operator doesn't have to get out of the bus and manually tie them down every time? How did anyone ever approve this design for something that has to be done dozens of times a day?

Edit: Thinking about it further, shouldn't this already have at least one layer of redundancy? The hooks on the roof are one lock, the winches being in the retracted state is another, and the actual motors/mechanism on the front is probably a 3rd.

I really have trouble understanding why this procedure exists at all unless it's some kind of holdover design requirement from an earlier era that no one put any thought into.

A glance at a few other dual-mode systems in the world also looks like they don't do anything this inefficient to secure the poles, either.

 

[BosMaineiac]

Kind of a no-brainer to have battery powered electric buses on this line.

I think the best case would be to have battery electric buses capable of in-motion charging in the tunnel, as discusses on this forum before. It's basically a trolley-bus with batteries. I guess the BEB's used on the silver line for the pilot program struggled with the range required for SL3. I would hope there's a new bus capable of raising and lowering a pantograph without the driver needing to get out of the bus. The BEB's have pantographs for charging anyways, although I'm not sure if they can be used while in-motion.

 

[Tallguy]

I think the best case would be to have battery electric buses capable of in-motion charging in the tunnel, as discusses on this forum before. It's basically a trolley-bus with batteries. I guess the BEB's used on the silver line for the pilot program struggled with the range required for SL3. I would hope there's a new bus capable of raising and lowering a pantograph without the driver needing to get out of the bus. The BEB's have pantographs for charging anyways, although I'm not sure if they can be used while in-motion.

The old buses were capable of automatic change, the T just refused to use it

 

[king_vibe]

They could be powered by Mr. Fusion and they’d still just be buses idling in standstill traffic.