South Station Tower | South Station Air Rights | Downtown

You understand that efforts to develop Hudson Yards go back to, like, 1950, right?

Well, we had a proposal going back at least as far as 1964. So that's 55 years without movement. Are you saying that 70 years is the appropriate amount of time for this type of project?

1966
 
What "starting gate"??? A "mind-bogglingly large" amount of projects have gone up in the past decade and/or are still under construction. Boston is booming. Everyone who has an NYC inferiority complex should fucking move there if they love it so much.

He was comparing one project over a railyards to another project over a railyards. That's it. He was saying that a project he believed had a similar set of hurdles was able to finally overcome (with an unbelievably enormous complex) while we haven't even started. The "starting gate" is that we have not started construction on any of the South Station complex.
 
It's almost certain that there is going to be some level of foundation work before this thing goes vertical. I think it is unlikely that the foundations that were installed however many decades ago are perfectly ready for the current scheme. In fact this report from MIT in 2003 seems to indicate as much. The existing foundations were put in place with a 12-14 story tower in mind, and the current scheme calls for more than 4x that height.

Then you need to take into account the difficulty of building over the tracks, and getting materials from the street to the tower. I imagine the set up & re-work of temporary protection is going to add several months to the project.

4 years may seem like a long time, but I think when you break it down it makes sense. I wanted to do a little thought experiment on what I thought it might take so here's my logic.
  • Foundation work up to the first floor or two including set-up re-work of temporary protection, egress paths, etc : ~9-12mo.
  • Tower Core & shell assuming 1.5 weeks per floor for 50 floors: ~17mo
  • Fit out, to make it simple I'm guessing that the interior portion will lag ~20 weeks behind the core & shell by the time that is finished & weather tight. So 20 floors of fit-out, let's say 16 weeks per floor, but they overlap so lets say the lag time to start each floor is ~3 weeks. That's 16 weeks for the first fit-out + 3 weeks*19 floors to account for the rest fit-out gives us 73 weeks or another ~17mo.
So to break that down I wind up somewhere between 3.5 & 4 years on my very high level guesstimate of a schedule. I'm sure that I might be conservative on the fit-out portion, but I'm also sure there's plenty that I haven't accounted for. Curious what others with experience in large projects might think.
 
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The MIT study indicates that the new bus terminal is part of the South Station complex, and that's been built.

In 1966, the New Haven railroad operated intercity trains out of South Station. The New Haven went into bankruptcy, and was absorbed by the Penn Central in 1968. The Boston Redevelopment Authority bought South Station from the [trustee in bankruptcy for the New Haven?] railroad and soon began demolishing it, until demolition was halted by protests, with the BRA subsequently selling the property to the MBTA. Its a stretch to compare timelines for Hudson Yards with South Station, given that the single-owner MTA has long used Hudson Yards as a storage yard for the LIRR.
 
Transbay Tower (now Salesforce Tower) began below-grade construction around September 2013. The concrete for the foundation mat was poured November 2015, so two plus years of excavation.

Salesforce is 1070 feet tall, 61 floors, and 1.6 million square feet.

First tenants moved in January 2018.
 
Transbay Tower (now Salesforce Tower) began below-grade construction around September 2013. The concrete for the foundation mat was poured November 2015, so two plus years of excavation.

It's worth noting that below-grade work for Salesforce took so long as a direct result of seismic risks. It's built on filled land that can liquefy during strong earthquakes, and the tower's piles reach down to bedrock- 300 feet- to mitigate that risk. Though earthquakes aren't unheard of here, I don't think Salesforce SF is the perfect analogue here.
 
It's worth noting that below-grade work for Salesforce took so long as a direct result of seismic risks. It's built on filled land that can liquefy during strong earthquakes, and the tower's piles reach down to bedrock- 300 feet- to mitigate that risk. Though earthquakes aren't unheard of here, I don't think Salesforce SF is the perfect analogue here.
If there is to be foundation work below grade -- it will be much more complicated than just drilling down and sticking in some shafts
Underneath the South Station Complex are lots of pieces of the Big Dig
So much happened under South Station --- that during the project to keep from disrupting the rail traffic -- the Big Dig folks built several Huge Tunnel Boxes where Atlantic Ave is now and slowly jacked them under the tracks near and about South Station while hundreds of trains continued to pass overhead
Ground_Freezing_System_in_Operation_while_Commuter_Trains_Run_Through_the_Big_Dig.gif
fit

Jacking Pits in Boston ’s Central Artery Project
Arturo Ressi di Cervia Treviicos Corporation, Boston, Massachusetts
To enable the process of excavation of the soil in front of the Tunnel Box -- the soil was frozen so that mining techniques could be used to mine the space for the Tunnel Box without any danger of the tracks being disrupted
While all of those crossing presented great challenges, the tunnel under the Amtrak lines was particularly difficult since it had to be built with only 20 feet of cover without taking out of service any of the tracks bringing commuters to South Station, the City’s busiest rail terminal. Add to this the difficult geological conditions, the presence of utilities and obstructions and the size of the tunnels to be built and it is easy to believe that this particular contract ranks among the most challenging ones in a project which will be remembered for years to come as a true test of the ingenuity and professionalism of the American construction industry. Fig. 1. Central Artery/Tunnel Project General Map Paper No. 5.12 2 METHODOLOGY Three tunnels had to be built, all 78 feet wide by 38 feet high, the 150 feet long ramp section, the 260 feet long westbound tunnel and the 380 feet long eastbound one collectively known as the South Bay Interchange. After careful study of the geology and of Amtrak’s requirements, the chosen method was to jack the tunnels under the tracks, a feat never attempted in North America for boxes of those dimensions. Soil freezing was the method chosen to stabilize the ground through which the boxes had to be jacked and appropriate precautions were taken to compensate for the expansion of the frozen soil. In such a manner the tracks could be protected from collapses during excavation and from heave during the freezing procedure. Hundreds of pipes were driven into the ground on a tight pattern between the tracks on the alignment of the proposed tunnels and brine at 30 degrees below zero was circulated through the pipes to create a block of frozen ground.
[/URL]

Thus one hopes that all the foundation work that is needed will be above the level of the soil surface
 
And all of this craziness.. the freezing of the ground and mining the ground under our busiest train station, the cut and cover of a tunnel under a working highway, floating precast tunnels out to the harbor and sinking them, to then connect those to another cut and cover tunnel.. connected to another sank precast tunnel... and so on is why the big dig was one of the most complex projects... ever. So when ppl are scared of NSRL today with thoughts back to the big dig, modern tbm techniques would make the projects nothing alike and should not be compared. We have never used a tbm before in Boston, but nsrl would be a cake walk compared to the absolute insanity that the big dig was.
 
People seem to also be forgetting that we already had our version of Hudson Yards - see the entire Prudential complex.
But the Pru wasn't built over an active rail yard. It was built over a defunct rail yard, so I'm not sure it's a good analogy.
 
It's almost certain that there is going to be some level of foundation work before this thing goes vertical. I think it is unlikely that the foundations that were installed however many decades ago are perfectly ready for the current scheme. In fact this report from MIT in 2003 seems to indicate as much. The existing foundations were put in place with a 12-14 story tower in mind, and the current scheme calls for more than 4x that height.

At, well this seems big. I'll look more into it this weekend, but with the small amount of foundation design experience I have, this might be a tricky fix, especially with moving trains and platforms scattered across the site..
 
The foundation piles were placed in the 1980s when the MBTA renovated south station and installed high platforms. This was a decade before electrification.
 
That's the first time I've seen that MIT report from 2003 (referenced separately 3 times by people who didn't seem to realize the others had already posted it :ROFLMAO: )! I could feel the optimism for the future... and then promptly realized it's been almost 2 decades since the South Station renovation took place.
 
While I like the building and project, I think the disruption to mass transit is going to be huge, painful and last years. Not good for the city's economy or QOL.

It would be better to build something like this in the old Wang building area. Using the existing pilings, South Station could use a glass roof over the boarding area with more retail and that would be enough.
 
While I like the building and project, I think the disruption to mass transit is going to be huge, painful and last years. Not good for the city's economy or QOL.

It would be better to build something like this in the old Wang building area. Using the existing pilings, South Station could use a glass roof over the boarding area with more retail and that would be enough.
The city needs both areas built out.

Also height restrictions at the old Wang building parcels (MassDOT 25, 26, 27) won't allow a tower like this; max height there is around 300 ft.. The tower is literally at the very edge of any high construction downtown due to Logan Runway 9/27 airspace restrictions.
 
Dug up the graphic for the BPDA Southbay determination, and PNF. Parcels 25 and 26a/b alloted (1) 300' tower for each parcel, with the rest being done as mid-rises. Unfortunately, the max sq ft for the master plan was a low number for these parcels, and developers stayed away.

i believe it is so implied that Parcels 27 & 28 would be best utilized as community space. Parks, soccer fields, etc--not quite at Hub on Causeway or Columbus Ctr level, but incredible nevertheless--if it could ever be realized.


faa by site builder, on Flickr

BPDA master plan pnf http://www.bostonplans.org/getattachment/4cb4f687-52c1-4ad2-bf15-af827a7993d1

Globe;

(combining my earlier post)
Someone should go up to the wiki page and remove the Southbay Tower nonsense.
*put a source that this lot is zoned for 300' max FAA, as part of the planning for the state sale of DOT lots 25, 26, 27, 28, under the updated BPDA master plan of 2016.
 
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Letters to the Editor
(clipped)
Donna said:
A terrifying tower
Regarding the artist’s rendering in Thursday’s Globe: The proposed South Station tower looks like either a gynecologist’s speculum pointed at the sky or a raised middle finger high over the city of Boston. Are we trying to terrify women or highlight having the worst traffic congestion in the country? The design says both to me.

Donna
Brookfield
Brookfield/LOL.
June said:
would only mess with our current mess
.....article states that construction of a skyscraper over South Station wouldn’t interrupt commuter rail or Amtrak service. ....Although the project supposedly won’t disrupt rail service, how will Boston manage even more commuters.... Once again, additional high-rises are being built with no thought to the commuter and traffic issues involved — or to the housing crunch, in which only the wealthy can afford to live in the city. ....We need a strategic plan.... and a moratorium on building more high-rises until there is a plan.
June
Westwood

#scared suburbanites:
They got it right: too much interruption = no construction permit/s.
Lux or affordable housing:
units = units. People always move up and create space.
Happens every day in the less-dramatic low/mid-rise world.
Yet, anti-land wasting/anti-gentrification highrises in Downtown locations
seem to really piss people off (here).
i guess they prefer the rich converting 2 units into 1, 3 into 2, or 3 into 1
or low-rise building that gobbles up land, rendering only high priced condo's--
for more rich folks.
 
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