Standard Subway Tunnels vs Custom Vehicles

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I sense that this has been covered indirectly on RR.net, but the issue (Mr. F-Line, your phone is ringing) is

Which is cheaper:
- Changing Boston's oldest subway tunnels to fit standard subway cars
- Buying custom subway cars to fit our non-standard subways

Specifically, this is a problem on the Green Line, where the T struggles with the costs and difficulties of buying a car that will tolerate our track, instead of sucking up and doing one-time changes that would permit our track to accept standard cars.

So which is cheaper...maybe $1b (?) just to tweak tunnels for 0 new capacity...or to spend an extra $300m (?) every procurement cycle on the Green Line. Can we get any benefits from the tunnel changes (throughput? new incline to the surface?) to help justify the one-time investment?


Background

Boston's Green Line subway have a few key points at which they have pinched, old, non-standard geometry. This results in the T being unable to buy "standard, modern" Light Rail Vehicles, which have converged over the years on common things some of which are ancient (like the distance between the raills) but standards "grew out" from there into things like the distance between axles on a bogie, distances between bogies, and the width of cars, common car lengths, overhang at the ends of cars, and minimum permitted curve radius.

As a result, a standard LRV has a standard dynamic envelope. Dynamic envelope goes beyond just "cross section" height and width, but includes things like:
- how far "out" the front or back can "point" on the outside of a curve
- how far "out" the middle can intrude toward the wall on the inside of a curve
- how far the top corners can sway
- how tight the crests and troughs can be

This results in standard tunnel dimensions, which, over time, have gotten wider and taller and the curves and inclines have gotten gentler (at the same time speeds have gone up and stations gotten farther apart...but that's another issue)

I'm not entirely sure where all of Boston's non-standard problems are, but if a Type 8 has derailed there, that's a pretty good sign. But I'd think they would include

- Turnaround Loops (esp underground as at Govt Center and Kenmore)
- Tight turns (exiting Boylston St to turn onto Tremont)
- Loops and Turns! (at the "top" of Park St)
 
Forget about it on the heavy rail lines, because Blue/Orange/Red cars are so identical under the hood that the dimensional differences make almost nil difference to the vehicle cost. They have exactly the same components, right down to the ability for an Orange or Red car to take an overhead power source if pantographs were installed and for any of the cars to adjust to different platform heights by calibrating the under-floor air ballast (when you get that random car that doesn't quite align with the platform...that's a leaking or mis-calibrated air ballast). The aluminum or stainless steel shell that goes on top is the least expensive part of the car, and the basic design is so similar to HRT systems around the world that there's almost no substantive differences between a Red Line car and a NYC Subway BMT division car, or between an Orange Line car and a PATH car.

The only reason for modding the heavy rail tunnels would be if 2 or more of the lines were connected together and interoperable. Which they're not. And there's no obvious way to make them interoperate on a service pattern that serves any pressing need, given the way they all intersect. So set this aside as a non-issue.


-------------------

On Green, the ruling curve radius is Park St. loop at 42 ft. Next-worst is Lechmere inner loop @ 45 ft. (and going away in a few years due to GLX). Boylston curve is a relatively spacious 81 ft., loose enough to take a Blue Line car if need be (albeit veerrrry slowly) and not quite as bad as Bowdoin loop since it's just a turn and not a complete loop. Kenmore and GC loops are much wider still and within the design standards for heavy rail. Not sure what Heath inner loop is, but it's considerably wider than both inner and outer Lechmere.

That is well within the design standards of nearly all generic streetcar-width LRV's like the Kinki-Sharyo AmeriTram, which can take a 60 ft. curve. Park St. is the only one that would have to be retired for that, but (before it ended up costing too much) they had planned to do that anyway by converting the inner track into a thru track. Generic widebody LRV's like the Bombardier Flexity and Alstom Citadis (which don't fit here because of the width and are mostly preferred by newer and/or grade-separated systems), can still do 82 ft....only 1 ft. wider than Boylston despite the widebody. And I'm pretty sure both Alstom and Bombardier have the narrower streetcar-dimension variants in their lineups because both form factors are used ubiquitously worldwide.

Other than dog-slow speeds on a generic, Boylston curve isn't a problem. It doesn't even get close enough to the design limits to put any stress on the articulation.



The ruling height on the GL is in the C/D portal tunnel from Kenmore where it passes the NStar substation on Beacon St. There's heavy under-street trunkline cables coming out of that building (which pre-dates the tunnel), so the tunnel ceiling dips. I don't know what the exact height is, but that is the one that causes all the problems.

Our LRV's are under-height vs. the generics. 12 ft. from wheel to minimum pantograph height. Whereas an AmeriTram is 12.5 ft. on the carbody alone (don't know if that goes down to wheelbase) without factoring minimum pantograph clearance. That's why all the roof-mount transformers and A/C units on the Type 7's and Type 8's are exposed to the elements instead of encased like the sexier-looking generics...they did that to pare a couple inches. The ceiling height inside is a bit lower, and that meant with the Type 8's they had to play "how low can you go" with dropping the floor and push the design limits. It forces a lot of overcustomization.

I don't know if there are any other height restrictions. I don't think so because Haymarket-Pleasant St. handled Orange Line-dimension cars from 1901-09, the Boylston St. subway, B portal, and Kenmore Loop are fine for Blue dimensions, and the 1963-construction eastbound GC tunnel and 1995-2004 construction North Station tunnel are built to Red dimensions. So the C/D pinch should be the only such restriction preventing generics.


The T's also got its own weird specs limiting car design. We of course have left-handed doors. Most systems don't. That affects seating arrangements and under-car component placement somewhat. Although the generics are usually built to allow lefty doors if a buyer wants 'em.

And the T is really anal about car length. Must be able to fit 3 full cars into all subway stations and the inner Heath loop without any non-door part of the train overhanging, must be able to fit 2 cars into the shortest and shittiest strips of asphalt on the B with no non-door part of the train overhanging. And must be able to open all doors on 4 cars in a subway station with some non-door overhang in case a 2-car train has to push a 2-car train. It's not enough to have a super-long 2-car set instead of triplets...it's gotta be 72 feet long on the button. Smallest make of the AmeriTram is 6-1/4 ft. short. Kinki would have to customize, because it's gotta be 72 fucking feet. Why? "Because we've always done it that way." They even rejected Kinki's offer of modifying the Type 7's with a low-floor "sandwich" section in the middle, because that made them longer than 72 fucking feet. Breda would not have had to compromise on such an unproven design if the Type 8's didn't have to be 72 fucking feet. Just like the Type 9's must be...72 fucking feet.



So...what to do about this?

-- Height restriction can be taken care of by shaving the floor of the C/D tunnel under the substation. This is under bedrock as it climbs the Beacon St. hill and there's nothing underneath, so that shouldn't be an issue. Obviously needs an engineering assessment, but there are no obvious blockers nor should this cost more than $1-3M since a floor undercut has no impact on the structural integrity of the tunnel.

-- Boylston curve should probably be widened a few feet by shaving back the triangular section of wall on the outbound side (reinforcing with rebar as necessary), adding on a couple feet's width onto the steel deck that carries the tracks, and repositioning the tracks. While it's safely within design limits for any generic LRV, that speed restriction is already painful and doesn't need to get worse. $4-8M, engineering assessment of course required but that wall doesn't carry any load except the sidewalk above the ceiling girders so this one is pretty straightforward.

-- Park loop has to be retired. They were funded by stimulus grant for $12M to do just this starting this year, but found out it required more invasive relocation of support girders and electrical boxes so they canceled the project and gave back the fed money (yes...they gave back free money). It's not impossible...just cost more than they wanted. $20M? Somebody at the T has an exact quote, and they wouldn't have gotten the grant to begin with if the engineering assessment hadn't passed, so this is doable.

-- Drop the @#$% 72 ft. length requirement. Not enough generics hit that right on the button for +/- 6 ft. to be such a fatal hang-up. If the AmeriTram 300 is a little shorter...who cares. The cost of NOT modifying them lets you buy more vehicles. Drop the requirement that all trains must fit on the platforms, and make it a saner all DOORS must fit policy. They have already conceded this requirement for future 4-car subway trains, and it is completely useless on the surface where there's no emergency egress considerations. And why should the crappiest non-ADA asphalt strips on the surface branches be limiter here? FIX 'EM!

-- Strongly consider not just a few feet's variance from the 72 ft. standard, but study vehicles like the super-long versions of the AmeriTram that they can modularly string together with extra unpowered low-floor sections. Is two longer 2-car trains better than running 72 ft. triplets everywhere? Why don't we revisit that low-floor "sandwich" section Kinki offered to add to the Type 7's and settle on that as a new standard length. That's probably pretty close to the 98.5 ft. of the AmeriTram 500...the midrange-length generic.

-- Hook an electro-shock collar to every T upper manager and procurement person. Triggered to the words "We've always done it this way" or any variation of "The Green Line is a century old and has very special needs." Because they have never been able to substantiate either claim with evidence when it comes to vehicle procurement.


Let's say cost on these construction projects bloats. $50M. $75M. $100M How much is that worth vs. the vehicle premium they pay for their overcustomizations amortized over the 25-year rated life of the vehicles + all the special things they have to do with them in rebuilds for extended life? How much gets chewed up by all the consultants and middlemen who have to supervise this OCD customization? How many fewer bidders do they get because too few manufacturers can pull off their kooky customizations (i.e. the "Breda effect"). How many fewer vehicles do they get to buy per order because of all that extra overhead? They make back their one-time construction costs in a single order...every order...if they do this and stick with generics.

It's insane that they won't. They are not the only agency with "special needs" or an old subway who have found a way to do just fine staying hands-off on design and buying generics. The market for generics is HUGE with all these upstart systems looking for a good unit price. The T is cutting its own nose to spite its face clinging to its supposed "specialness" here. Just wait till these Kinki, Bombardier, Alstom, etc. generics start flying off the shelves to every city in middle America that's opening a new LRT line in the next dozen years. The unit premium they'll continue to be paying is totally inside their own heads.
 
One note: the "B" branch can handle 3 car trains currently, even the shitty strips of asphalt. The "C" branch has two stations which are too short: Cleveland Circle and Washington Square, due to street crossings.

Question: Audubon Circle is up for some reconstruction from the city, not to mention the big Landmark Center project. Can they combine a bit of tunnel-fixing with that?
 
Question: Audubon Circle is up for some reconstruction from the city, not to mention the big Landmark Center project. Can they combine a bit of tunnel-fixing with that?

I'm sure that they could. But do you really trust the city and state agencies involved to coordinate that sort of thing, especially when the T won't admit that they have a problem with their peculiarity about their trains?
 
One note: the "B" branch can handle 3 car trains currently, even the shitty strips of asphalt. The "C" branch has two stations which are too short: Cleveland Circle and Washington Square, due to street crossings.

Question: Audubon Circle is up for some reconstruction from the city, not to mention the big Landmark Center project. Can they combine a bit of tunnel-fixing with that?

Wrong side of the Pike. The NStar building and associated tunnel pinch are here closer to Kenmore. Audubon's 1000 ft. further up the road, and the C and D tunnels have long since split by that point.


Probably doesn't require much additional cooperation. If they're undercutting the floor the roof and the NStar lines above would be unaffected. They'd just have to do the usual EIS'ing, checking to see what if anything is underneath, making sure there's no secondary effects to abutters. It's pretty much their project alone.
 
Probably doesn't require much additional cooperation. If they're undercutting the floor the roof and the NStar lines above would be unaffected. They'd just have to do the usual EIS'ing, checking to see what if anything is underneath, making sure there's no secondary effects to abutters. It's pretty much their project alone.

But it sounds like the sort of thing that's easy enough, but wouldn't even be on their radar because they're in la-la-land when it comes to common-sense improvements.
 
But it sounds like the sort of thing that's easy enough, but wouldn't even be on their radar because they're in la-la-land when it comes to common-sense improvements.

"But...then we wouldn't be special anymore!"


This is the ultimate unsexy improvement. Don't want to stay hands-off when they can stay hands-on. Don't want to make PowerPoints and explain to people why a few weekends' bustitution at Fenway and St. Mary's will let them save money on stuff--unit price and reliability--Joe commuter isn't going to notice and pat their nearest politician on the back for. Less time designing glass headhouses, etc.


Of course, you can spin a narrative about unsexy improvements. It's done all the time. They just have to want to.
 
So, summarizing F-Line's punch list and pricing, we have an item, a description, and a "risk-adjusted" cost (padded) of (wild guess) $100m, like this:

Loop @ Park Street 42ft
- Remove (make both through to Gov't Center); More than $12m
- $20m

Loop @ Lechmere 45ft
- Replace with new termini on GLX @ Lechmere/Union/Washington
- $00m (free with $400m GLX)

Low Ceiling @ Kenmore C/D Tunnel
- Lower the track (F-Line says $1m to $3m
- $10m (in round numbers, plus drainage or whatever)

Other Dimensions: Boylston St. subway, B portal, and Kenmore Loop are fine - Believed OK
- $00m

Left-Hand Doors
- Believed OK (Generics allow them, even if not fully generic)
- $00m (no off-vehicle fix)

Length @ Coolidge Corner and Washington St
- Close Cross Streets
- $20m (a number I made up)

Curve @ Boylston
- New Ceiling Span to permit wider tunnel box ($4m - $8m + Eng Asmt)
- $20m

Length @ Other Surface Stations
- Lengthen + ADA or Close
- $20m (another number I just made up)

With bloat built in along the way,it sounds like you're looking at $90m (if you just add) or $100m rounded...which still seems like a bargain to me (especially since gentler curves save on flange wear and noise, and longer, ADA-compliant platforms should be good for riders)

And what you get with standardization has got to be worth more than that:
1) Multiple bidders lowering prices on "commodity" trains where they can afford to lower prices because they've had a lot more chances to amortize their design costs for most components. I'm thinking you could get half to all your money back on this alone.

2) No consultants Custom work isn't just expensive because it is non-competitive (see above) but also because on top of "normal" bids, you've got to pay all kinds of experts to evaluate things

3) Trains that work (cheaper operations / efficient fleet) To get to be generic, you've been proven bit by bit on somebody else's system. So the first benefit is that stuff just works.So, yes, little custom touches (door types, left hand doors) are custom risks, but the big stuff isn't. Trains out of service have to "covered"; trains that work are cheaper simply because you can operate a full system with fewer of them

4) Options worth exercising (cheaper operations / larger common fleet) When you've got a model you like, you love to order more for all the parts-commonality, training, and reliability savings--usually at prices you "locked in" in a competitive bid situation "pre-inflation" and without the costs of running a procurement circus.
 
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Usual caveat applies: until the engineering studies are done we don't know if there are any fatal blockers or limitations on the amount of mods they can do at these pinch points.

However, the closer you get to generic dimensions the cheaper the unit cost, the wider the options, and (generally) the more reliable X vehicle is going to be the less it's customized. They may not get 100% of the way there...certainly stuff like left-handed doors are non-negotiable. But the closer you get to a generic spec the easier and less invasive the mods are. So it's something they have to move towards. If they can't fix the tunnel pinch all the way, see if they can fix it a little bit. Inches matter. If they can't get ideal turning radii, better turning radii speed things up. A lightly customized AmeriTram or something else in use worldwide is a hell of a lot better than a heavily customized AmeriTram. And a customized generic is a hell of a lot better than a total unicorn vehicle like the Bredas. Are they doing enough to move towards that generic direction?

And definitely arbitrary stuff like the 72 ft. car length requirement needs to be revisited because there's nothing physical forcing them into that one dimension. Why would something like the AmeriTram 300 be verboten from bids unless customized because it's 6 ft. shorter? Why can't there be anything longer, or why can't there be a mixed-length fleet when these new models have wholly modular trucks? Why does a length spec set over 40 years ago on a supposedly generic trolley still hold ironclad when its origin wasn't even system-specific and technology/modularity has advanced leaps and bounds? Lose the parts of this "specialness" that are not special at all.


We don't have to achieve perfection with this. But "more standard" is better than what we have today. Less overcustomizing is better than more overcustomizing. One-time capital adjustments pay off better than perpetual procurement adjustments. Administrative restraint in procurements is better than administrative run-amok. Half the problem is cultural. As you can see, there is very little physical that's forcing them to do this. Damn sure not with the commuter rail, buses, or HRT lines...and only really at 1 or 2 discrete points of a couple hundred total tunnel feet on the Green Line. This is way more self-perpetuating "We've always done it this way" obstinance than it is a technical hurdle. They have to get over themselves, stop thinking they're special, and start looking at aggregate value over the vehicle class's lifetime instead of opportunities for more micromanagement for micromanagement's sake.
 
I'm glad we've gotten it all "on paper" here (thank you F-Line). I am disappointed that we haven't gotten something like this from Secretary Davey. Maybe its one of those things--like merging the transportation agencies/authorities--that have to be talked about for several gubernatorial elections (it was a Romney fave) before somebody does it (Gov Patrick).

You'd kind of think that Charlie Baker would like it as an issue, really. Davey should fix it just to take that arrow out of Baker's quiver
 
I'm glad we've gotten it all "on paper" here (thank you F-Line). I am disappointed that we haven't gotten something like this from Secretary Davey. Maybe its one of those things--like merging the transportation agencies/authorities--that have to be talked about for several gubernatorial elections (it was a Romney fave) before somebody does it (Gov Patrick).

You'd kind of think that Charlie Baker would like it as an issue, really. Davey should fix it just to take that arrow out of Baker's quiver

I think they should just dog-and-pony show this to drive home the point.

Have Kinki bring its AmeriTram 300 demonstrator to town like it did on Dallas DART. Run it on the B, E, and GLX for a few days if they can't do the C or D tunnel. Look...this one even has left-handed doors!

ameriTRAM-1_HR.jpg

Kinkisharyo-ameritram-interior-2.jpg



Bombardier did the same thing too, bringing one of the Flexity consists it was building for Brussels out to Vancouver for the 2010 Olympics:

4277675604_cd8cde779d.jpg



Invite 'em all to the party. Throw some transit convention at BCEC as an excuse for the pomp and circumstance, and do a frickin' parade of them as a public exhibit in revenue service. Make an event out of the live taste test.


We've done it before. They trialed the Bombardier CLRV from Toronto here in revenue service in 1980 when they were sick of the Boeing lemons, and considered buying them before opting to draft the Type 7 specs instead. 3 cars on-loan...they trialed them in single, double, and triplet configurations for 3 months in revenue service.


4029.st.marys.st..jpg


Nuthin' special there. The loaners were stock Toronto cars that didn't even have left-handed doors (note the sign in the window saying this C outbound was skipping Kenmore). That didn't stop them from taking thousands of paying customers during the road tests.
 
Bombardier did the same thing too, bringing one of the Flexity consists it was building for Brussels out to Vancouver for the 2010 Olympics:

I rode one of these on the demonstration line. They were pretty nice, though it wasn't quite enough to convince the city to build the False Creek streetcar line yet.
 
And refresh our memories: the Kinkysharyo (Type 7) trains are highly reliable, yes? Has anyone bought an Ameritram? Love the design and the possibility of operating 5 miles on battery.

Are there any other off-the-shelf "winners" that Boston should be buying? I'd love to compare in this thread the price other systems are buying "standards" for versus what the MBTA paid for the Type 8s or is likely to pay for the Type 9s
 
No orders yet, but they only announced it in 2011 and toured the demonstrator prototype later that year. There hasn't been enough time for any cities to make a procurement yet given that those always happen 3-5 years in advance. Charlotte also got the tour of the demonstrator car.

Charlotte


Seattle Sound Transit and Phoenix Metro Light Rail bought the car the AmeriTram is based on, with their procurement preceding the AmeriTram by 5 years. Seattle has a second workalike batch being delivered right now. Differences: 70% low-floor instead of 100%, fixed length from the factory instead of plug-and-play length with the additional unpowered trucks. Seattle has one major Seattle-specific customization, their weird 1.5 kV DC power source, which is very different from the 750 v DC that most LRT systems use. Phoenix uses the same standard voltage we do.

360px-Sound_Transit_Central_Link_Vehicle.jpg

METRO-on-Mill-015.jpg
<--- lefty doors!

So it's basically the AmeriTram's daddy, and Kinki took this vehicle and pumped out a next-gen version. I think it's the first 100% low-floor available in the narrowbody form factor. That's usually been the realm of the widebodies, with 70% low the previous bleeding-edge for narrow LRV's. Probably its biggest overall selling point. The modularity vs. fixed factory length was the other big thing, although that doesn't matter nearly as much to buyers who are likely to want a uniform length and will probably gravitate to the 300 model first. The battery/off-wire thing is true bleeding-edge. Unlikely very many prospective buyers are going to have a need for that feature, so it's probably more a future tech demo than something that'll be included on any orders. Also not a new thing, as MUNI's TT's have been able to go short distances off-wire for years...it's just never been done on a heavy LRV or for this long a distance. Has the same regenerative braking everything from a Prius to a diesel locomotive has these days, which on an electric pumps the excess power back into the grid instead of radiating it as heat. That's nothing new, but it gets better each new generation same as it does with cars. And is now good enough to charge that battery for off-wire excursion.



You can definitely see the Type 7 lineage in the overall shape and the articulated sections. That was Kinki's very first LRV design. This is little more than 25 years of gradual evolution of the narrowbody form factor until it took on the more aerodynamic shape, gradually added ever-higher % of low-floor, and all the exposed roof mounts, side panels, and articulation joints got folded into the carbody a little more neatly. But other than moving from DC to AC traction motors (i.e. the ones that whine like the Type 8's and Red Line 01800's) like every modern vehicle transit vehicle under the hood it's not much different from a Type 7. The trucks are evolutionary upgrades for the low-floor instead of flinging darts at the wall like Breda did. The electrical systems are all derivative; the Type 7 junked all the nonstandard crap in the Boeings and went back to "it just works" PCC lineage, with everything up to today evolutionarily branching off that same family tree still puttering along in Mattapan.


I mean, the AmeriTram's interesting for the 100% low-floor, the bleeding-edge frills, and the sales pitch that pimps genericness as a virtue. But pretty much all the major established LRV product families in wide use with good reputation like the Flexity and Citadis are descendents of the PCC's and 7's. And Bombardier/Alstom/Siemens/etc. are all developing 100% low-floor narrowbodies with generic bent. There are so many LRT systems popping up like weeds in North America that it's a boom market with absolutely fierce competition amongst the reputable big boys. Unit prices are getting better and better with this kind of manufacturing scale. The T would be crazy not to position itself for the generics spree. So far...they're still being crazy.
 
“On Green, the ruling curve radius is Park St. loop at 42 ft.”

Its not just 42 ft going around the entire loop, its 42 ft even on the portion of the loop that is used by westbound cars to enter Park St. station from Government Center. When the Boeings were introduced in 1976, they slightly modified the curve coming into Park St. as best they could to get it to 42 ft, it was slightly tighter before. And its not just the single curve itself, it is the fact that there are also reverse curves with only short segments of tangent track between them. That also comes into play as locations like the eastbound platform at Boylston St. and the westbound approach into Haymarket. The 72 foot car length for a six-axle car isn’t just some arbitrary number that somebody came up with for no good reason. It is the maximum length that can be accommodated at several locations in the Tremont St. subway. Even to accommodate 72 feet, the ends must still be slightly tapered so the overhang won’t hit the walls. And you are pretty boxed in at Park St., the Red Line subway tunnel is directly below at that point, limiting the ability to move support columns, and the foundation for Park St. church is right next to the tunnel, limiting any ability to expand the width of the tunnel at the approach to Park St. west

“The ruling height on the GL is in the C/D portal tunnel from Kenmore where it passes the NStar substation on Beacon St”

The clearance issue is not in the 1932 tunnel under Beacon St., it is the 1959 tunnel built from the Fenway portal to the Beacon Junction. That tunnel had to dip under existing buildings and is restricted in height because of that. One of those buildings, an old taxi garage, was later torn down, but a new building was put in its place several years ago. When the Riverside line opened in 1959, the 1906 built Type 3 snow-plows had to have the roofs lowered to fit in the new portal. Those same cars had no problems operating through the older tunnel under Beacon St.

“The T's also got its own weird specs limiting car design. We of course have left-handed doors.”

All double-ended cars have doors on both sides, the MBTA is not unusual at all on that issue. What was unusual 72-years ago, was when the Boston El first purchased SINGLE-ended PCC cars with left-side doors, It is very unusual for a single-ended car to have doors on both sides. Is somebody suggesting that the MBTA should go back to buying single-ended cars?

“And the T is really anal about car length. Must be able to fit 3 full cars into all subway stations and the inner Heath loop without any non-door part of the train overhanging, must be able to fit 2 cars into the shortest and shittiest strips of asphalt on the B with no non-door part of the train overhanging”

The driver’s door mirrors must be on the platform so the operator can see the doors. At Heath St., a longer train would actually be blocking a lane of traffic while laying over.

“Smallest make of the AmeriTram is 6-1/4 ft. short. Kinki would have to customize”

It is not practical for the Green Line to purchase any off-the shelf 100% low-floor car like the Bombardier Flexity 2, the Alstom Citadis, Siemens Avenio, Breda Sirio, or CAF Urbos 100 for several reasons having primarily to do with incompatibility with the existing fleet. The primary one is the different height of the anti-climbers and drawbars. The 100% low-floor designs all have much lower anti-climbers compared to a Type 7, Type 8, or the proposed Type 9. That means that in a collision, there would be a great danger of telescoping, with the much heavier Type 7s and Type 8s capable of inflicting catastrophic damage on a 100% low-floor car in a collision. It also means that there is no practical way to mechanically couple the cars, which is an absolute requirement in the subway. All car types must have the ability to push or tow a fully loaded train of any other car type. Horsepower also comes into play with this issue, the smaller lighter cars generally have lower horsepower (because they don’t need as much) but that is a problem if they had to push a dead train of older equipment. The MBTA requires that the lowest horsepower car must still have enough power to push a fully loaded train of the heaviest equipment up the steepest grade in the system (Warren Hill on Com Ave and the new portal at Science Park being the steepest). Incompatible cars can share the lines up to a certain point. PCCs could operate along with Boeing LRVs between 1976 and 1985 because the cars could be coupled with an adaptor; the anti-climbers were at the same height; a train of PCCs did have enough horse power to slowly push a dead train of LRVs; and an LRV, while it would cause more severe damage to a PCC in an accident than another LRV, the collision buff strength of the PCC was still strong enough to make a collision survivable. When the heavier Type 7s were introduced in 1986 (after PCCs were removed from the Green Line in 1985 when the Arborway line closed), that effectively meant the PCCs would never return to the Green Line in regular service, even if history had been different and the Arborway line reopened. A two car train of PCCs does not have enough horsepower to push a fully loaded dead-train of Type 7s.
Because of the size of the Green Line fleet, it would not be practical to replace the entire fleet at once and never have the different car types operate at the same time. NJ Transit in Newark was able to replace their small fleet of PCCs with a new fleet of much heavier Kinki-Sharyo cars in 2001, but they accomplished that by ending PCC operation, shutting down the line briefly for modifications, and then reopening with the new cars, operating out of a new maintenance facility. The two incompatible car types never operated at the same time.

“They even rejected Kinki's offer of modifying the Type 7's with a low-floor "sandwich" section in the middle, because that made them longer than 72 f**ing feet”

Kinki-Sharyo did not “make an offer” to build a low-floor section to install between the A and B ends of the Type 7s. It was in fact the MBTA’s vehicle engineering consultant in the early 1990s,Booz Allen, that investigated that as possible method to provide access instead of ordering new low-floors cars. It was turned down as an option for several reasons:
-The horsepower to weight ratio would have been very poor, with poor acceleration rates
- A train of the modified three-section Type 7s would not have enough horsepower to push a dead train of the same type upgrade
-The modified cars would have had a very high axle weight, which would be a problem on the Lechmere viaduct
-Riverside and Reservoir carhouses would have to be modified to accommodate the longer cars. (If it weren’t for the other issues, this one probably could have been accommodated).
While it didn’t prove to be a viable option for the MBTA, Kinki was able to take the concept years later and apply it to cars they have built for Dallas and New Jersey Transit. The concept worked when applied to these two systems because the cars Kinki built for these two operators already had higher horsepower to work with than the Type 7s, and neither of these systems have grades as steep as the steepest grades on the Green Line.
 
Phoenix's proto-Ameritram cars are fantastic. I rode a few back in 2010 and it was everything you'd want to see on the Green Line.

True level boarding, functional interior layout, stupidly smooth ride. It really looked and felt like a futuristic version of the Type 7s.

F-Line: Random question, do you happen to know if the Kinki cars on LA's Gold Line are remotely compatible with Boston's Green Line?
 
The 72 foot car length for a six-axle car isn’t just some arbitrary number that somebody came up with for no good reason. It is the maximum length that can be accommodated at several locations in the Tremont St. subway. Even to accommodate 72 feet, the ends must still be slightly tapered so the overhang won’t hit the walls. And you are pretty boxed in at Park St., the Red Line subway tunnel is directly below at that point, limiting the ability to move support columns, and the foundation for Park St. church is right next to the tunnel, limiting any ability to expand the width of the tunnel at the approach to Park St. west
...
Kinki-Sharyo did not “make an offer” to build a low-floor section to install between the A and B ends of the Type 7s. It was in fact the MBTA’s vehicle engineering consultant in the early 1990s,Booz Allen, that investigated that as possible method to provide access instead of ordering new low-floors cars. It was turned down as an option for several reasons:
-The horsepower to weight ratio would have been very poor, with poor acceleration rates
- A train of the modified three-section Type 7s would not have enough horsepower to push a dead train of the same type upgrade
-The modified cars would have had a very high axle weight, which would be a problem on the Lechmere viaduct
-Riverside and Reservoir carhouses would have to be modified to accommodate the longer cars. (If it weren’t for the other issues, this one probably could have been accommodated).
While it didn’t prove to be a viable option for the MBTA, Kinki was able to take the concept years later and apply it to cars they have built for Dallas and New Jersey Transit. The concept worked when applied to these two systems because the cars Kinki built for these two operators already had higher horsepower to work with than the Type 7s, and neither of these systems have grades as steep as the steepest grades on the Green Line.

Lots of good points there. If you were doing the math, would you think that changing the geometry at the worst places could be done for $100m and how much do you think it could save?
 
Phoenix's proto-Ameritram cars are fantastic. I rode a few back in 2010 and it was everything you'd want to see on the Green Line.

True level boarding, functional interior layout, stupidly smooth ride. It really looked and felt like a futuristic version of the Type 7s.

F-Line: Random question, do you happen to know if the Kinki cars on LA's Gold Line are remotely compatible with Boston's Green Line?

L.A.'s cars are Nippon Sharyo...different company entirely. Japanese corporate names can be very confusing like that.

Metro Rail LRV's are same width as all Green Line LRV's: 8' 8", standard PCC-like narrowbody dimension. 6 inches taller, and considerably longer @ 90 ft. vs. 72 ft. The Nippon Sharyos are old...2 batches in '89 and '94. Their latest order is from...*gasp*...Breda.

That height thing is a real problem. It's too hard to find standard makes that aren't 6-12 inches too tall for that one pinch point. Length and curve radius at least have a spread of models, but 11.5-12 ft. tall carbodies (excl. pantograph height) is pretty much where they all hit.


It'll never be perfect, but they have to work towards less customization as a goal. That means doing the engineering studies on what's possible. How close to 1-1.5 feet can they come up with on a floor drop that does not affect the tunnel walls or roof? What are the load-bearing properties? Can that floor be shaved down 4-6 inches and replaced with denser material of same load-bearing quality? Can they do anything to the floor? Can they buy 4-6 inches replacing the ballast bed with a section of floor-anchored concrete ties a la the GL side of North Station? Inches matter, so how many inches? Hang a number on it.

How many degrees of easing can they buy on the S-curves? Maybe you're not going to reach 60' radius. Fine...how close can you get? 48'? 50'? 55'? Every gain is less car customization. Hang a number on it.

Can't do 100% low-floor? Fine...would the ubiquitous 70%'ers work on the couplings without excessive customization? What's the minimum amount of customization that stays within appropriate trainlining compatibility? Hang a number on it. The Boeing dimension specs that the 7's, 8's, and now 9's are boxed into were finalized in 1973. Revisit. What's changed in 40 years of car design that offers up some flex that didn't exist in 1973? Not much?...fine. "Not much" is > zero, so quantify the options. "Absolutely none"?...I doubt it, but if that is indeed true go quantify the present-day proof that nothing is improvable from the '73 specs. That is very different than writing it off as "We've always done it this way."


That's 3 general areas to look at and get some hard numbers on. Quantified wiggle room on anything pushes the ball forward to less customization, so what can we aggregately come up with that nets inches here or degrees there or inside design/compatibility tolerances there. Perfect generification may be impossible...it may always have to be a Boston-bred "Type _" vehicle. And we can't know those answers as a bunch of outsiders spitballing on this thread. So study it.

But less customization is much better, so any combo of incremental infrastructure improvements and consideration of where modern tech closes the gap makes our "Type _" vehicles less expensive per unit and less divergent from the generics. That is a good thing that will probably amoratize any one-time construction costs over the lifetime of the vehicle order. You could probably find $50M--conservatively--in that math for one-time modifications. But give this fresh attention and quantify it. We have a problem here with this LRT system being out-of-step with the vehicle market, and it's presenting serious scale problems at expanding the system or improving its reliability. Leave no stone unturned trying to quantify what mixture of improvements...improves this.
 
Knowing the Japanese, their names are very literal. I know that "sha" is car, and it appears from the website for the company that the character used for "ryo" becomes "railroad car / rolling stock" when put together with "sha".

So Nippon Sharyo (日本車輌) is literally: Japan Railroad Car.
 
Knowing the Japanese, their names are very literal. I know that "sha" is car, and it appears from the website for the company that the character used for "ryo" becomes "railroad car / rolling stock" when put together with "sha".

So Nippon Sharyo (日本車輌) is literally: Japan Railroad Car.

Makes sense. Kinki Sharyo's parent company is this conglomerate alternately known as Kintetsu Corp. / Kinki Nippon Railway Co., the largest private owner of railways in Japan. So it's probably "[kinki-translation] Railroad Car Company, a subsidiary of Japan [kinki-translation] Railroad Company".

Japan never disappoints.
 

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