State Tax Policy (from the Fidelity Thread)

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AmericanFolkLegend

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JohnCostello said:
As far as Fido being in NH and RI, it all comes down to taxes. People complain about them moving jobs around to other states, but for where they are located in NH (Salem) and RI (North Smithfield) they are still in the Greater Boston economic umbrella. The workers still spend money within this area and the company makes more money. Don't like that, too bad. Call 617-722-2000, ask for Deval, Robert, or Terry and ask them about it.
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Don't you think cost of land/rent has something to do with it?
NH and RI have higher corporate income taxes than Massachusetts. When you call Deval thank him for that.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

AmericanFolkLegend said:
When you call Deval thank him for that.
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Thank him for *not* raising taxes? "Please, sir, may I thank thee for not taking more of my money? 'Twas so kind of ye, sir; I know me don't deserve it none, milord."

I don't think anyone needs to thank any politician for not *raising* taxes. Luckily, most politicians' sense of political survival typically outweighs the desire to increase their power (which raising taxes / increasing government intake, or expanding government's scope, does).
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

itchy said:
Thank him for *not* raising taxes? "Please, sir, may I thank thee for not taking more of my money? 'Twas so kind of ye, sir; I know me don't deserve it none, milord."

I don't think anyone needs to thank any politician for not *raising* taxes. Luckily, most politicians' sense of political survival typically outweighs the desire to increase their power (which raising taxes / increasing government intake, or expanding government's scope, does).
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Come on Itchy. You know my comment was tongue in cheek and in direct response to a previous suggestion that we should call the Governor based on the incorrect assumption that MA has higher corporate taxes than RI and NH.
You're jumping on a soap box to refute a point I never made.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

AmericanFolkLegend said:
Come on Itchy. You know my comment was tongue in cheek and in direct response to a previous suggestion that we should call the Governor based on the incorrect assumption that MA has higher corporate taxes than RI and NH.
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You're joking right? Or are you only considering the straight corporate tax rate without any other considerations to the government collection machine? Excise taxes, property taxes, use taxes, sales taxes, etc. etc., not to mention the plethora of fees levied on businesses none of which are considered by the tax burden analysis published by the various think-tanks. In FY2012, at $33B, Mass's budget was the fourth highest in the nation, behind only Cal, NY and Texas. Absolutely ludicrous given a state of this size.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

Massachusetts and other states with high tax rates are prosperous because of the human capital high taxes pay for. Same goes for many other states or countries. Ask Sweden if it would rather be Greece, where the government tacitly condones tax avoidance, or better yet, ask a company based there.

Companies play the blackmail game all the time and sometimes even relocate back offices to terrible places, but in the end the real money always stays in places that are expensive for a reason.

Race to the bottom advocates should move to the wastelands they want to emulate.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

HalcyonEra said:
You're joking right? Or are you only considering the straight corporate tax rate without any other considerations to the government collection machine? Excise taxes, property taxes, use taxes, sales taxes, etc. etc., not to mention the plethora of fees levied on businesses none of which are considered by the tax burden analysis published by the various think-tanks. In FY2012, at $33B, Mass's budget was the fourth highest in the nation, behind only Cal, NY and Texas. Absolutely ludicrous given a state of this size.
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Rhode Island has higher Corporate Income tax and Sales Tax rates. Property taxes are decided at the local level. It's not really debateable - RI has a higher state and local tax burden than MA. But it's got a way lower cost of living, which makes it attractive to Fidelity as a back of office location. Same reason India is attractive as a call center location.
New Hampshire is definitely a low-tax state. But again, cost of living is the big driving factor. That's what determines rents, salaries, etc.

Race to the bottom advocates should move to the wastelands they want to emulate.
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+1
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

czsz said:
Massachusetts and other states with high tax rates are prosperous because of the human capital high taxes pay for. Same goes for many other states or countries. Ask Sweden if it would rather be Greece, where the government tacitly condones tax avoidance, or better yet, ask a company based there.

Companies play the blackmail game all the time and sometimes even relocate back offices to terrible places, but in the end the real money always stays in places that are expensive for a reason.

Race to the bottom advocates should move to the wastelands they want to emulate.
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I don't characterize this issue as a race to the bottom. Corruption reigns here. With the amount of money in the till we should have world class infrastructure. And we don't. Far from it. While we do well with our primary schools, the secondaries are always getting shortchanged.

Not sure what you mean by the real money, but I beg to differ that it has remained here. With corporate taxes, while there are exceptions, corporate income taxes are primarily paid to the state where the HQ is located. This state has lost a tremendous amount of corporate HQ in the past 30 years. This affects not only tax receipts, but charitable endeavors as well.

Don't get me wrong, Mass is great state to live. But there is a reason why most projects require TIFs or some other incentive.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

So...is Fidelity actually building something or is this just a circle jerk?
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

Toby, I love it when you use time-honored legal terms, like circle jerk.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

HalcyonEra said:
You're joking right? Or are you only considering the straight corporate tax rate without any other considerations to the government collection machine? Excise taxes, property taxes, use taxes, sales taxes, etc. etc., not to mention the plethora of fees levied on businesses none of which are considered by the tax burden analysis published by the various think-tanks. In FY2012, at $33B, Mass's budget was the fourth highest in the nation, behind only Cal, NY and Texas. Absolutely ludicrous given a state of this size.
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Why is that "ludicrous"?

Massachusetts is an economic powerhouse - - it has the 6th highest per capita GDP - - behind small natural resource, corporate taxhaven or federal freak states like Alaska, Wyoming, D.C., Delaware... the only semi-normal state ahead of it is Connecticut.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP

Amen to what czsz and AmericanFolkLegend wrote.

Sure, the union situation in Mass. is anachronistic and must go and there are too many government workers who feel entitled - - this is much less than 5 years ago, much less than 10 years ago, and will be much less in the next 5 years. I'm tired of hearing that Babbit-like misinformational mantra of what a general economic basket case Massachusetts is.

The truth is that Massachusetts is a PRODUCER state --- and, yes, the Boston area is booming and people in high tax brackets (and who can choose) are immigrating while the only thing that is holding them back is residential supply.

So enough with the KarlRove/Dick Morris disinformational crap.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

shmessy said:
Why is that "ludicrous"?

Massachusetts is an economic powerhouse - - it has the 6th highest per capita GDP - - behind small natural resource, corporate taxhaven or federal freak states like Alaska, Wyoming, D.C., Delaware... the only semi-normal state ahead of it is Connecticut.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP

Amen to what czsz and AmericanFolkLegend wrote.

Sure, the union situation in Mass. is anachronistic and must go and there are too many government workers who feel entitled - - this is much less than 5 years ago, much less than 10 years ago, and will be much less in the next 5 years. I'm tired of hearing that Babbit-like misinformational mantra of what a general economic basket case Massachusetts is.

The truth is that Massachusetts is a PRODUCER state --- and, yes, the Boston area is booming and people in high tax brackets (and who can choose) are immigrating while the only thing that is holding them back is residential supply.

So enough with the KarlRove/Dick Morris disinformational crap.
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Please with the disinformation BS. I do not believe in inefficient government, I have no tolerance for it. Government should be for the people by the people, not for the government by the connected. Don’t let facts get in the way of your big government is good belief. Apparently I desire a tad bit more from the 4th largest state budget in the nation.

Taking the back-office argument a bit further, if we were so business friendly, you would have seen these types of developments in the former mill town towns of northern Worcester country and the Springfield / Amherst areas. But you don’t, do you? The cost of living is much lower in Western Mass as is land. There is plenty of talent coming out all the colleges there to support it. There is much much more to the equation than the simple corporate profit tax rate. For instance, most large companies move their datacenters out of Mass for the specific reason of sales, use and property taxes.

I do agree that the public sector has improved greatly as the Dukakis-era policies have faded and agree with your residential supply argument though. It’s great to see all the apartment developments in the city, unfortunately the sheer costs of those projects make the rental costs extreme. I am a strong proponent of 40B projects in the burbs. It’s a shame that large transit orientated projects like Westwood Station have floundered, but I have high hopes for Quincy Center and am taking a wait and see approach to the Weymouth Air Force base project and I have no issue with State funds subsidizing these types of developments.

In the end though, I am opposed to burdening the Mass Pike drivers with tolls on a road paid off many moons ago. Slap tolls on 93 N/S coming into the city, and Route 3 to the Cape and NH if the Pike is to be taxed as it is. All should pay for the big dig fiasco. As for the T, sure it was the first the nation, but it is nowhere close to where it should be by now. My wife’s cousin retired in his early 40’s with an $80K pension and full medical. While I know that supposedly can’t happen now, time will tell, but it’s still rampant. When the Director of the Chelsea Housing Authority is hauling in $360K a year, in one the poorest cities in the state, that nonsense must stop. The provincial, good old boy network of state jobs only hurts the masses in the end. And jacking up the state budget to cover for it is not the answer.

BTW, as much as I like height, that Fidelity proposal was damn ugly, but I guess it is reflective of the company they are.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

HalcyonEra said:
My wife’s cousin retired in his early 40’s with an $80K pension and full medical. While I know that supposedly can’t happen now, time will tell, but it’s still rampant. When the Director of the Chelsea Housing Authority is hauling in $360K a year, in one the poorest cities in the state, that nonsense must stop. The provincial, good old boy network of state jobs only hurts the masses in the end. And jacking up the state budget to cover for it is not the answer.
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Really, how did the Chelsea mess happen? This guy was paid more than the director of the Housing Authority in NY! Where were the watchdogs and firewalls? See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

This thread is an absolute disaster.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

Spank on
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

HalcyonEra said:
Please with the disinformation BS. I do not believe in inefficient government, I have no tolerance for it. Government should be for the people by the people, not for the government by the connected. Don’t let facts get in the way of your big government is good belief. Apparently I desire a tad bit more from the 4th largest state budget in the nation.

Taking the back-office argument a bit further, if we were so business friendly, you would have seen these types of developments in the former mill town towns of northern Worcester country and the Springfield / Amherst areas. But you don’t, do you? The cost of living is much lower in Western Mass as is land. There is plenty of talent coming out all the colleges there to support it. There is much much more to the equation than the simple corporate profit tax rate. For instance, most large companies move their datacenters out of Mass for the specific reason of sales, use and property taxes.
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Maybe the talent doesn't want to stay living in the boondocks.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

DBM said:
Of course, "high profile glitzy" is absolute anathema to Ned Johnson & clan, what with their Yankee outlook/background. And when you say, "should have done more"--what, the tens of millions of dollars he plowed into the Peabody Essex Museum and similar philanthropic ventures isn't enough? Just because someone's Yankee tastes seem quaint and out-of-date doesn't mean that, objectively, they've done major things for society/community. The value of the Peabody Essex Museum to the North Shore's regional economy, and downtown Salem in particular, is simply incalculable. Plus, all the cool model ships!
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I'm not saying I think it, I'm saying that a lot of people get their panties tied in a knot when it comes to anything to do with Fidelity. Maybe it is just the quirkiness of the clan. I don't know.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

bbfen said:
Maybe the talent doesn't want to stay living in the boondocks.
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That's a chicken or egg argument. Plenty of talent in the boondocks in other states where some of these backoffice operations are set up. I've worked for a lot of large companies and been to some pretty isolated spots, and I would take the Rt2 or Amherst/Northampton/Springfield corridors over them. Not all talent are hipsters who need to live in the coolest of places.
 
Re: Fidelity's HQ may go high

Three pages of nothing worth reading based on one news blurb? Great job, internet.
 
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