Suffolk Downs Redevelopment | East Boston/Revere

[FK4]

I think I've said this before, but I really wish there was some restoration of the Belle Isle Inlet as part of the development plan. I would have loved to see some larger riparian buffers from the channel edge (in exchange for added density in the development), and maybe some changes to the inlet's geometry (greater sinuosity) to better mimic natural estuarine systems. Some salt marsh creation along the margins would be great for water quality. Belle Isle Marsh is pretty degraded, and decisions we make upstream can have great impacts on the marsh. Not to mention the resiliency benefits (if you believe in sea level rise/climate change). With restoration, I think it would serve as an even greater asset for the community as a resource for passive recreation than as currently designed.

Once this development is created, there won't be another opportunity. But reactive decision making is humanity's specialty.

Absolutely dead on.

 

[393b40]

I'm pretty skeptical this will end up feeling any better than a suburban office park with housing.

 

[HenryAlan]

[A] suburban office park with housing.

and two subway stations.

 

[fattony]

I'm pretty skeptical this will end up feeling any better than a suburban office park with housing.

and two subway stations.

Expect mixed elements from Assembly Row and Cambridge Crossing (I still hate that name). Like all clear cut new development, it is going to lack any sense of authenticity for a long time (a decade or more, probably). Whether or not that translates to "suburban office park" is up to personal interpretation. I think this is going to be a vibrant place with a lot of young people and transplants specifically seeking out that "new car smell" on everything. That's not my style, my house is 108 years old, but I get that people like it.

Places like Orient Heights and Beachmont are pretty much my definition of soulless - Dunks and gas stations are about the only businesses. This redevelopment will bring some actual urban form to what is quite possibly to saddest excuse for a neighborhood in Boston. With any luck, this will be a kick in the pants to the old neighborhoods to the north and south and will reinvigorate them.

 

[Beton Brut]

I think I've said this before, but I really wish there was some restoration of the Belle Isle Inlet as part of the development plan. I would have loved to see some larger riparian buffers from the channel edge (in exchange for added density in the development), and maybe some changes to the inlet's geometry (greater sinuosity) to better mimic natural estuarine systems. Some salt marsh creation along the margins would be great for water quality. Belle Isle Marsh is pretty degraded, and decisions we make upstream can have great impacts on the marsh. Not to mention the resiliency benefits (if you believe in sea level rise/climate change). With restoration, I think it would serve as an even greater asset for the community as a resource for passive recreation than as currently designed.

Once this development is created, there won't be another opportunity. But reactive decision making is humanity's specialty.

Much of what you suggest here is related to Tony DiMambro's idea's covered in this Globe piece from a couple of years ago.

Expect mixed elements from Assembly Row and Cambridge Crossing (I still hate that name). Like all clear cut new development, it is going to lack any sense of authenticity for a long time (a decade or more, probably). Whether or not that translates to "suburban office park" is up to personal interpretation. I think this is going to be a vibrant place with a lot of young people and transplants specifically seeking out that "new car smell" on everything. That's not my style, my house is 108 years old, but I get that people like it.

Not much to disagree with here.

Places like Orient Heights and Beachmont are pretty much my definition of soulless - Dunks and gas stations are about the only businesses.

There's only superficial accuracy to your assessment of the Heights (and Beachmont). These are old enclaves, largely untouched as other nearby areas are being gentrified. The Heights is still largely unchanged since I got out of high school over thirty years ago. Many of the multi-family homes remain owner occupied, thus far untouched by the rampant real estate speculation elsewhere in East Boston. There's a mix of old and new business, package stores, bars, independent restaurants, a butcher shop, two dry cleaners, barber shops and hair salons. And there are people on the streets, patronizing these businesses. To suggest it's just "Dunks and gas stations" is preposterous.

This redevelopment will bring some actual urban form to what is quite possibly to saddest excuse for a neighborhood in Boston. With any luck, this will be a kick in the pants to the old neighborhoods to the north and south and will reinvigorate them.

Exactly what has stimulated your thinking toward this assessment?

 

[CSTH]

Places like Orient Heights and Beachmont are pretty much my definition of soulless - Dunks and gas stations are about the only businesses. This redevelopment will bring some actual urban form to what is quite possibly to saddest excuse for a neighborhood in Boston. With any luck, this will be a kick in the pants to the old neighborhoods to the north and south and will reinvigorate them.

Yeah this is just not accurate at all. Definitely room to enhance the 'urban form' ... but also a lot of independently owned restaurants, delis, pubs, and a cigar room, among other things.

Actually yeah can't tell if youre unimpressed by the retail mix or by the built environment? You'd rather have a world-class street environment like Harvard Sq., populated entirely by Starbucks, Bank of America, and CVS?

 

[fattony]

This question is open to anyone who doesn't live there: When was the last time anyone asked you to meet them for dinner or drinks in Orient Heights?

Same question for Harvard Square?

I rest my case.

To characterize Harvard as being nothing but Starbucks and CVS is laughable. Beton Brut listed every business in Orient Heights in one sentence. Harvard has easily dozens of (maybe over 100) unique and/or locally owned businesses. I didn't set out to insult Orient Heights, though I suppose"soulless" was unnecessarily strong language. I don't think it is very controversial to say there isn't much going on there. I'm not sure what angle of "too cool for school" you are working by making a comparison to Harvard, but it doesn't make a lot of sense...

 

[Beton Brut]

...quite possibly to saddest excuse for a neighborhood in Boston.

Are you for real?

I ask this being a vocal critic of both the built environment and the retail mix in my neighborhood. And please understand, your assessment doesn't offend me; but it does make me wonder about your ability to discern between reality and (your own) opinion, or more pointedly, your ability to discern between value and wealth.

 

[CSTH]

This question is open to anyone who doesn't live there: When was the last time anyone asked you to meet them for dinner or drinks in Orient Heights?

Same question for Harvard Square?

I rest my case.

To characterize Harvard as being nothing but Starbucks and CVS is laughable. Beton Brut listed every business in Orient Heights in one sentence. Harvard has easily dozens of (maybe over 100) unique and/or locally owned businesses. I didn't set out to insult Orient Heights, though I suppose"soulless" was unnecessarily strong language. I don't think it is very controversial to say there isn't much going on there. I'm not sure what angle of "too cool for school" you are working by making a comparison to Harvard, but it doesn't make a lot of sense...

I was just trying to sort out whether your criticism was about the physical form or about the vitalitybof the retail ecosystem. I picked Harvard as a familiar example of great physical form, but problematic vitality (I recognize that harbard square is still great, no need to argue that further).

Maybe when you said 'soulless' you meant something like 'placeless?' or 'poor spacial definition?'

Just trying to understand your criticism because they're are a lot of ways to improve orient heights but diversity of retail really isn't high on the lost

 

[chrisbrat]

had to have been typed on a phone while driving

 

[stick n move]

HQ2 Belle Isle Square by Derek Shooster, on Flickr

HQ2 Belle Isle Square 2 by Derek Shooster, on Flickr

HQ2 Belle Isle Square 3 by Derek Shooster, on Flickr

HQ2 Beachmont Square Retail Plaza by Derek Shooster, on Flickr

HQ2 Main Street Retail Rendering by Derek Shooster, on Flickr

This is not going to be like a suburban office park lets be serious here. Suburban office parks are spaced out individual buildings surrounded by parking lots with no coherent connection between them or retail/wallkability. I see bus lanes, bike lanes, squares, corners, retail, public spaces, transit... To me I see a maturation of the Assembly model, no visible parking garages whatsoever, no cheesiness almost fake disney mock up buildings like the lego building. Assembly does have a few “older”-ish looking buildings so that would be nice to see here, but this is definitely very urban.

Some more of this would be nice, but overall much more coherent than Assembly which is packed with garages and looks a little more planned as in trying to look older than it is. That above is just exactly what it is, a new modern city like the Seaport. Theres room for new areas like this, the south end, seaport...etc. If you want old the back bay, north end etc arent going anywhere. We have mixed old and new in downtown, bulfinch. I think having a range of old areas and new areas is great so theres things for everyone.

 

[Jouhou]

Are you for real?

I ask this being a vocal critic of both the built environment and the retail mix in my neighborhood. And please understand, your assessment doesn't offend me; but it does make me wonder about your ability to discern between reality and (your own) opinion, or more pointedly, your ability to discern between value and wealth.

Yeah, it's also just generally poor form to go around dissing other people's neighborhoods.

Orient Heights is a real neighborhood with a real community.

Fattony-
People are going to take it personally if you just tell them their neighborhood sucks. If they are a closely knit community they are going to take it *very personally* especially when you characterize it as being soulless. The residents are the soul.

If you ask me, in a neighborhood that is mostly residential only the residents would be able to fairly characterize the neighborhood. It might not have features that draw people in from elsewhere, but it certainly does have a "soul". You're just not going to personally experience it without living there.

We get away with harsh assessments of things that haven't been built yet here because the community doesn't exist yet to insult.

 

[fattony]

OK, I have clearly failed to communicate my intended message, so if you all will allow I would like to start over. I said "Orient Heights" and you all very reasonable jumped to the square, when that wasn't really what I meant and I should have made clear.

I originally wrote:

Places like Orient Heights and Beachmont are pretty much my definition of soulless - Dunks and gas stations are about the only businesses. This redevelopment will bring some actual urban form to what is quite possibly to saddest excuse for a neighborhood in Boston. With any luck, this will be a kick in the pants to the old neighborhoods to the north and south and will reinvigorate them.

When what I meant to say should have read:

The areas immediately surrounding Suffolk Downs and Beachmont T stations are pretty much my definition of soulless - Dunks and gas stations are about the only businesses. This redevelopment will bring some actual urban form to what is quite possibly to saddest excuse for a neighborhood in Boston. With any luck, the redevelopment of Suffolk Downs will be a kick in the pants to the old neighborhoods to the immediate north and south and will reinvigorate them.

I don't know what else to call the area around the Suffolk Downs T station other than "Orient Heights," but if that was wrong then hopefully I have clarified what I intended. Maybe you all still disagree with my assessment, but at least now we should be talking about the same place.

I think there are an awful lot of parking lots and 1-story buildings, including 1-story houses. There will be a stimulus in terms of both retail and housing in these areas that comes along with the SD redevelopment. I think that is a good thing.

 

[Beton Brut]

Thank you for clarifying, fattony.

In regard to the property edge closest to Suffolk Downs station (between Bennington Street and Route 1A), I'd refer to this as the "Waldemar Avenue Corridor." It's largely residential, ranging from single families homes (nearest to Walley Street and the Station) to the public housing development (closest to 1A, that we've discussed in another thread). Geographically, this is part of Orient Heights, but it does certainly have the disconnected and remote vibe of an outpost that is largely hostile to pedestrians. It should be noted, the northernmost residential properties in the City of Boston are located here.

HYM is referring to the area of their project closest to Suffolk Downs Station as Belle Isle Square. I'm not sure that this name will ever stick with the locals; my old man still calls Government Center "Scollay Under," so I imagine that for folks of a certain age, it'll take more than branding to kill off the Suffolk Downs name.

Migrating up Bennington Street to Beachmont takes us past the edge of Belle Isle Marsh. My neighbors and I have been pushing HYM toward a spectrum of ecological improvements in the Marsh, better integrating it with the planned wetland/resiliency improvements to their site.

Bennington Street ends at Winthrop Avenue in Beachmont. There is indeed a heavily-trafficked Dunkin Donuts in the shadow of the Blue Line viaduct, but across the street is one of the best Italian bakeries in the region, on par with anything in the North End. The established neighborhood to the east climbs a hill, and is a mix of single, two, and three family homes, with a few larger apartment buildings that were added in the 70s. This is a working class enclave, historically Italo-Irish (like much of East Boston and Winthrop), with a growing population form Brazil and North Africa - people-watching at the Station exit can be fascinating.

As you observe, the T viaduct and nearby Parkway form an anti-urban, pedestrian-hostile "infrastructure sewer" between Beachmont and the rest of beach-facing Revere. HYM hopes to refocus activity with a gateway-type square adjacent to the Station. Their plans are ambitious, and renderings attractive, but I think the result will be similar to the area immediately around Porter Square Station -- urban density and transit, but unabated vehicular traffic and challenges for pedestrians and cyclists.

 

[FK4]

I’ve actually always found the intersection beneath Beachmont fascinating, tho I don’t think I’ve ever been there on foot. But it has some kind of potent place-feeling, probably just evocative of the past when elevated lines existed above ground level small shops.

 

[odurandina]

I'm pretty skeptical this will end up feeling any better than a suburban office park with housing.

As someone who loathes so many low-rise projects, i have this glowing feeling--this will incite the endless Assembly Row comparisons.

 

[Beton Brut]

...it has some kind of potent place-feeling, probably just evocative of the past when elevated lines existed above ground level small shops.

In the late evening, Beachmont has a very noirish vibe. Beachmont Roast Beef adds a unique level of authenticity for hungry nightcrawlers. With the removal of the Orange Line and Causway Street Els and here are very few spots like this remaining on the T; Charles Street was an obvious analog, but with the exorcism of Buzzy's, it's now just another T stop.

...this will incite the endless Assembly Row comparisons.

I've actively asked the HYM team to stop making comparisons to Assembly Row, as their proposal is a cut above. They appear genuinely interested in finding ways to incorporate small-footprint, locally owned retail into their plan.

Given the scale of this project, I'd prefer an affordable housing component that's closer to 30% than the BPDA-mandated 13%. I'd also like to see a category of apartments/condos that are actively marketed to people who don't wish to own a car; have a high-count car-share onsite, and additional amenities for cyclists.

 

[odurandina]

Another Globe autopsy story on Amazon failed bid....

https://www.bostonglobe.com/busines...ooed-amazon/5M0mVXjYabZ8xVRRM1UZTP/story.html

“We wanted them walking. We wanted them on the T,” Barros recalled Monday. “We wanted them to experience getting around the way people who live here do.”

That’s how developer Tom O’Brien found himself standing outside of the MBTA’s Government Center Station, 10 Charlie Cards in hand, for a Blue Line trip to show off Suffolk Downs. O’Brien, who had signed the nondisclosure agreement, was hoping to avoid bumping into anyone he knew. It didn’t work out that way.

“I can see the group coming down the steps [at Center Plaza] and then these two friends of mine come by and stop to chat,” O’Brien said Monday. “Real estate brokers. I couldn’t tell them what I was doing. I’m really just trying to shut down the conversation. Finally they left, thank goodness.”

The return trip was a bit easier to keep quiet, with the group riding a water taxi from Logan International Airport to Rowes Wharf and then walking to a downtown office building to meet with executives from the development company Millennium Partners. Next, they hiked across Fort Point Channel to the penthouse of a Seaport apartment building to hear about buildings there.

Amazon had requested a small gathering for dinner, so Boston officials assembled a handful of local business leaders at More Than Words, which counsels and trains at-risk teenagers by running a bookstore. The choice, Barros said, was a nod to Amazon’s origins as a bookseller.

The dinner tables, remembers the Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce’s president, Jim Rooney, were surrounded by bookshelves, and teens who work with More Than Words served as greeters. Everything was timed to the minute, with oysters on ice at 5:45, according to a schedule. Dessert towers came out at 8.

The vibe was friendly, Rooney said, with the Amazon team — at that point midway through a coast-to-coast tour of potential sites — sounding positive about Boston, but not revealing much about the company’s thinking.

“They said, ‘Hopefully, one [city] emerges out of all of this,’ ” Rooney recalled.

The next day, after breakfast in Dudley Square and a visit to Assembly Row, Amazon’s contingent headed out of town. The team members working on Boston and Somerville’s bid felt they had done well, but knew there was a long way yet to go.

The visit, however, turned out to be the end of the road for the local bid.

Aside from getting a few phone calls on real estate questions, Boston didn’t hear much from the company after that....

contd

The city wasn't serious. We don't do "big" very well. Look at our never ending development pushback, failed Olympics bid,
mundane skyline, etc.

Yeahhpp.....

No one called the failed bid an 'abomination'

except possibly Amazon.

 

[stefal]

I hope they go back to the drawing board especially now that Amazon is out of the picture. The massing of this neighborhood makes no sense in the context of its existing neighbors. You can get some good urban scaled density without these sprawling boxes.

 

[CSTH]

Another Globe autopsy story on Amazon failed bid....

.....

Aside from getting a few phone calls on real estate questions, Boston didn’t hear much from the company after that....

One more time, with gusto:

Fuck this corporate shakedown bullshit. Good riddance.