The Alcott (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
^ This. We can talk all day about housing until our faces turn blue. They can even build it. But our city will be crippled if that housing is not planned, hand-in-hand with MAJOR transit upgrades. Which seems to be not a part of the conversation at all.
^ This. We can talk all day about housing until our faces turn blue. They can even build it. But our city will be crippled if that housing is not planned, hand-in-hand with MAJOR transit upgrades. Which seems to be not a part of the conversation at all.
Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
???????
At least you SOUND confident when you write that stuff.........
http://www.frenchmoments.eu/wp-cont...nse-from-Arc-de-Triomphe-©-French-Moments.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3001/2952031849_f368e4f950.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...Seine_as_seen_from_Pont_Mirabeau_140412_1.jpg
Boston -
600+ ft towers - 6
500+ ft towers - 17
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_and_structures_in_the_Paris_region
Paris -
600+ ft towers - 8
500+ ft towers - 17
???????
At least you SOUND confident when you write that stuff.........
http://www.frenchmoments.eu/wp-cont...nse-from-Arc-de-Triomphe-©-French-Moments.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3001/2952031849_f368e4f950.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...Seine_as_seen_from_Pont_Mirabeau_140412_1.jpg
Boston -
600+ ft towers - 6
500+ ft towers - 17
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tallest_buildings_and_structures_in_the_Paris_region
Paris -
600+ ft towers - 8
500+ ft towers - 17
Last edited:
whighlander
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
Fenway -- you are presupposing that everyone has to move all about the city at the same time or that there is a definitive central destination for everyone. In reality a lot of the commuting could be quite local without much need to to travel to / from the core on a daily basis.
For example the neighborhoods within walking distance of Longwood could increase in density without the need for much improved transportation networks.
Similarly many of the employees of the Seaport / Innovation District might live either in the District or in fringe existing residential areas of Southey within easy walking distance and which could be bulked-up with denser residential developments.
Fenway -- you are presupposing that everyone has to move all about the city at the same time or that there is a definitive central destination for everyone. In reality a lot of the commuting could be quite local without much need to to travel to / from the core on a daily basis.
For example the neighborhoods within walking distance of Longwood could increase in density without the need for much improved transportation networks.
Similarly many of the employees of the Seaport / Innovation District might live either in the District or in fringe existing residential areas of Southey within easy walking distance and which could be bulked-up with denser residential developments.
whighlander
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
Shmessy -- I'm speaking city limits to city limits -- you are including districts outside of Paris city such as la Defence Paris has only one significant tower Montparnasse within the city limits -- Boston has dozens
Paris Area sq. mi
• City 105.4 km2 (40.7 sq mi)
• Urban 2,844.8 km2 (1,098.4 sq mi)
• Metro 17,174.4 km2 (6,631.1 sq mi)
Paris Population (Jan. 2012)
• City 2,240,621
• Density 21,000/km2 (55,000/sq mi)
• Urban 10,550,350
• Metro 12,341,418
Boston Area sq. mi
• City 48.42 sq mi (125.41 km2)
• Urban 1,770 sq mi (4,600 km2)
• Metro 4,500 sq mi (11,700 km2)
• CSA 10,600 sq mi (27,600 km2)
Boston Population (2014)
• City 655,884
• Density 13,340/sq mi (5,151/km2)
• Urban 4,180,000 (US: 10th)
• Metro 4,628,910 (US: 10th)
• CSA 8,041,303 (US: 6th)
Note that the typical building in Paris is 4 or 5 stories as opposed to the many 1 and 2 story single family houses in Boston's low density neighborhoods such as JP, West Rox, Mattapan, Hyde Park
Shmessy -- I'm speaking city limits to city limits -- you are including districts outside of Paris city such as la Defence Paris has only one significant tower Montparnasse within the city limits -- Boston has dozens
The Eiffel tower, la Defence business district (background) and the Montparnasse tower (R) are seen in an aerial view in Paris July 14, 2011.
Paris Area sq. mi
• City 105.4 km2 (40.7 sq mi)
• Urban 2,844.8 km2 (1,098.4 sq mi)
• Metro 17,174.4 km2 (6,631.1 sq mi)
Paris Population (Jan. 2012)
• City 2,240,621
• Density 21,000/km2 (55,000/sq mi)
• Urban 10,550,350
• Metro 12,341,418
Boston Area sq. mi
• City 48.42 sq mi (125.41 km2)
• Urban 1,770 sq mi (4,600 km2)
• Metro 4,500 sq mi (11,700 km2)
• CSA 10,600 sq mi (27,600 km2)
Boston Population (2014)
• City 655,884
• Density 13,340/sq mi (5,151/km2)
• Urban 4,180,000 (US: 10th)
• Metro 4,628,910 (US: 10th)
• CSA 8,041,303 (US: 6th)
Note that the typical building in Paris is 4 or 5 stories as opposed to the many 1 and 2 story single family houses in Boston's low density neighborhoods such as JP, West Rox, Mattapan, Hyde Park
citylover94
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
Even in most of the neighborhoods you listed the houses are usually at least 2 stories but yes that is much lower density than Paris.
As new buildings have been built in Boston though they have generally been larger than the buildings surrounding them not necessarily by a lot but in general they are a little bigger with more apartments or condos so the neighborhoods are slowly evolving to become denser.
Even in most of the neighborhoods you listed the houses are usually at least 2 stories but yes that is much lower density than Paris.
As new buildings have been built in Boston though they have generally been larger than the buildings surrounding them not necessarily by a lot but in general they are a little bigger with more apartments or condos so the neighborhoods are slowly evolving to become denser.
Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
It is not fair to compare density in Pairs to Boston based on population. First need to factor in things like the narrower streets in Paris and the fact that the average apartment size is much smaller.
It is not fair to compare density in Pairs to Boston based on population. First need to factor in things like the narrower streets in Paris and the fact that the average apartment size is much smaller.
gooseberry
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
...and Paris is criss-crossed with lots of subway lines, which make it easy to get anywhere without a car. I agree with the people saying Boston needs a major expansion of public transportation. Also, consider Boston's rail system was more extensive back when the population density was higher. As the population fell, the system was scaled back. It needs to be scaled up again.
...and Paris is criss-crossed with lots of subway lines, which make it easy to get anywhere without a car. I agree with the people saying Boston needs a major expansion of public transportation. Also, consider Boston's rail system was more extensive back when the population density was higher. As the population fell, the system was scaled back. It needs to be scaled up again.
DigitalSciGuy
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
This, absolutely. While I agree we MUST make critical investments to restore our transit network to a state of good repair, let alone modernise and upgrade it for increased capacity, there's an opportunity to further distribute centers of activity. With greater density and mixed use, you can localise more trips and generate more economic activity without necessarily adding more strain to the transport network from regional trips.
Shawn upthread pointed to Tokyo as an example of a region that achieves high density through medium-height spines along major thoroughfares. The Tokyo region (and its railroads) grew through planned and organic growth of mixed use along their rail lines, engineered by rail companies as a way of capitalizing on the agglomeration benefits of development around their stations by maintaining sustained ridership outside of rush hour.
Though, back to Fenway's point (which goose reinforces): Paris and Tokyo can sustain that level of density through their highly developed rapid transit and regional rail network that provide a major transport backbone that we could only hope our region could ever agree to invest in... (regional ballot initiative bill is making its way through...) Even with that, both cities are trying to eke out more from their on-street space by encouraging more space-efficient semi-local trips by bike and through major transit priority programs.
Speaking of La Defense, maybe we need something like that along 128 somewhere...but not before the RER-ification of commuter rail... I can only imagine the outcry of NIMBYs could deafen those for Longfellow Place or otherwise, we could end up with medium-tall bastions of 'acceptable' urbanism like those around Metro stops in Virginia.
This, absolutely. While I agree we MUST make critical investments to restore our transit network to a state of good repair, let alone modernise and upgrade it for increased capacity, there's an opportunity to further distribute centers of activity. With greater density and mixed use, you can localise more trips and generate more economic activity without necessarily adding more strain to the transport network from regional trips.
Shawn upthread pointed to Tokyo as an example of a region that achieves high density through medium-height spines along major thoroughfares. The Tokyo region (and its railroads) grew through planned and organic growth of mixed use along their rail lines, engineered by rail companies as a way of capitalizing on the agglomeration benefits of development around their stations by maintaining sustained ridership outside of rush hour.
Though, back to Fenway's point (which goose reinforces): Paris and Tokyo can sustain that level of density through their highly developed rapid transit and regional rail network that provide a major transport backbone that we could only hope our region could ever agree to invest in... (regional ballot initiative bill is making its way through...) Even with that, both cities are trying to eke out more from their on-street space by encouraging more space-efficient semi-local trips by bike and through major transit priority programs.
Speaking of La Defense, maybe we need something like that along 128 somewhere...but not before the RER-ification of commuter rail... I can only imagine the outcry of NIMBYs could deafen those for Longfellow Place or otherwise, we could end up with medium-tall bastions of 'acceptable' urbanism like those around Metro stops in Virginia.
Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
I understand and should have said upfront that Tokyo isn't a fair comparison on any level.
But surely there are Red Line or Orange Line stations that could roughly be connected by a medium spine, no? Just start with one stretch. Add an additional parallel bus route along that stretch or add an express of some sort.
I understand and should have said upfront that Tokyo isn't a fair comparison on any level.
But surely there are Red Line or Orange Line stations that could roughly be connected by a medium spine, no? Just start with one stretch. Add an additional parallel bus route along that stretch or add an express of some sort.
JeffDowntown
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
You cannot simply throw tens of thousands more people on the Red and Orange lines without significant capacity enhancement, particularly at the downtown transfer stations. That means spending $$$$.
And Red has some hard capacity limitations due to the Harvard Square tunnel curve.
You cannot simply throw tens of thousands more people on the Red and Orange lines without significant capacity enhancement, particularly at the downtown transfer stations. That means spending $$$$.
And Red has some hard capacity limitations due to the Harvard Square tunnel curve.
bolehboleh
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
I personally don't want Tokyo or Paris in Boston. Both are great cities, but I just want Boston to be a be a better (than it already is) Boston not some other city. I used to love riding my bike to Rozzie or Hyde Park because these were sections that still kept their New England charm, while still being in a major city. We should aim to preserve that. We don't need the density of Tokyo or Paris, but maybe we could get Boston's population up to around 900,000 and then try to preserve that. There are plenty of dead areas that we can build up, but let's not go overboard.
I personally don't want Tokyo or Paris in Boston. Both are great cities, but I just want Boston to be a be a better (than it already is) Boston not some other city. I used to love riding my bike to Rozzie or Hyde Park because these were sections that still kept their New England charm, while still being in a major city. We should aim to preserve that. We don't need the density of Tokyo or Paris, but maybe we could get Boston's population up to around 900,000 and then try to preserve that. There are plenty of dead areas that we can build up, but let's not go overboard.
citylover94
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
But even if Boston had the density of Paris or even Tokyo it wouldn't ever look like them and the reality is that as much as some of that "New England" charm might be nice there is also plenty of "New England" charm in Beacon Hill at least as far as I can see and the Back Bay and South End are also pretty charming. Southie is increasing density but maintaining the same vernacular in a lot of the new buildings so I don't think the neighborhoods will necessarily lose what makes them special by getting denser. The feel will of course change and there won't be as many spots where one can say it feels like I'm in a cute New England village, but I don't personally think that is a bad thing.
But even if Boston had the density of Paris or even Tokyo it wouldn't ever look like them and the reality is that as much as some of that "New England" charm might be nice there is also plenty of "New England" charm in Beacon Hill at least as far as I can see and the Back Bay and South End are also pretty charming. Southie is increasing density but maintaining the same vernacular in a lot of the new buildings so I don't think the neighborhoods will necessarily lose what makes them special by getting denser. The feel will of course change and there won't be as many spots where one can say it feels like I'm in a cute New England village, but I don't personally think that is a bad thing.
SeamusMcFly
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
You're a sciency guy. When comparing things, always use the same order of units. Even trying to read something as simple as what you have hurts the head because you have British standard (imperial) units lining up with Metric.
We know Paris is SI (it's housed in France after all.) But, you get poor marks on your report for not making the information easy to read and compare.
Re-write it, but you will receive 10 points off.
You're a sciency guy. When comparing things, always use the same order of units. Even trying to read something as simple as what you have hurts the head because you have British standard (imperial) units lining up with Metric.
We know Paris is SI (it's housed in France after all.) But, you get poor marks on your report for not making the information easy to read and compare.
Re-write it, but you will receive 10 points off.
whighlander
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
Paris Area_______105.4 km2
Boston Area_____125.41 km2
Paris Population_2,240,621
Boston Population_655,884
Paris Density______21,000/km2
Boston Density_____5,151/km2
But -- perhaps you can enlighten us on the formatting tools that are available on AB Forum
Formatting tables by inserting spaces is tedious and often fails in the final display due to varying character widths
However, I'm sure if you look carefully you will find sufficient information to allow you to make the comparison
The relevant point is made by the image -- outside of the suburb of la Defense in the background -- Paris is a low rise city -- with a mix of broad 19th C avenues and narrower Medieval era streets -- yet it manages to achieve a high population density compared to Boston or most typical US major city
PS: Boston once had a population of 800,00 with fewer housing units than it does today -- back then Boston family size was significantly larger
Note: A lot of that has to do with both the overall changing demographics toward smaller families, and specifically the flight of the middleclass to the suburbs [e.g. Wellesley, Lexington] to have good schools and safe neighborhoods
Today, with Boston's demographic profile of singles, empty nesters, couples without kids -- there have to be a lot more residential units than back in the 1950's when 3 generations of a family were packed into a 3 decker in Dorchester
PPS: extra credit for anyone who can identify the object in the picture
Seamus -- for your benefit I've highlighted the data for the two core cities in SI [homage to the Le Bureau International des Poids et Mesures]
Paris Area_______105.4 km2
Boston Area_____125.41 km2
Paris Population_2,240,621
Boston Population_655,884
Paris Density______21,000/km2
Boston Density_____5,151/km2
But -- perhaps you can enlighten us on the formatting tools that are available on AB Forum
Formatting tables by inserting spaces is tedious and often fails in the final display due to varying character widths
However, I'm sure if you look carefully you will find sufficient information to allow you to make the comparison
The relevant point is made by the image -- outside of the suburb of la Defense in the background -- Paris is a low rise city -- with a mix of broad 19th C avenues and narrower Medieval era streets -- yet it manages to achieve a high population density compared to Boston or most typical US major city
PS: Boston once had a population of 800,00 with fewer housing units than it does today -- back then Boston family size was significantly larger
Note: A lot of that has to do with both the overall changing demographics toward smaller families, and specifically the flight of the middleclass to the suburbs [e.g. Wellesley, Lexington] to have good schools and safe neighborhoods
Today, with Boston's demographic profile of singles, empty nesters, couples without kids -- there have to be a lot more residential units than back in the 1950's when 3 generations of a family were packed into a 3 decker in Dorchester
PPS: extra credit for anyone who can identify the object in the picture
Last edited:
JeffDowntown
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
Also, a lot of what is happening in Southie is in-fill, which arguably make it feel even more like the dense parts of Southie (that does not have vacant lots).
Development planned around Andrews Square is replacing underutilized single story commercial/industrial. Again, this in the end will feel more like the core of Southie than the current industrial usage.
Also, a lot of what is happening in Southie is in-fill, which arguably make it feel even more like the dense parts of Southie (that does not have vacant lots).
Development planned around Andrews Square is replacing underutilized single story commercial/industrial. Again, this in the end will feel more like the core of Southie than the current industrial usage.
Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
This seems a little bit snarky. You presented one city with km first and miles in parenthesis, and then the other city with miles first and km in parenthesis. That's sloppy, and that's on you.
This seems a little bit snarky. You presented one city with km first and miles in parenthesis, and then the other city with miles first and km in parenthesis. That's sloppy, and that's on you.
whighlander
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
DZH -- I agree that my post was sloppy but it was not intentionally snarky -- for expedience -- I just copied and pasted from tables in the the two wiki articles Paris [which featured km] and Boston [with featured mi]
Then I left for some singing in my church choir -- only later in the day did I see the sloppiness in presentation coupled with the difficulty in formatting a table on th AB Forum
DZH -- I agree that my post was sloppy but it was not intentionally snarky -- for expedience -- I just copied and pasted from tables in the the two wiki articles Paris [which featured km] and Boston [with featured mi]
Then I left for some singing in my church choir -- only later in the day did I see the sloppiness in presentation coupled with the difficulty in formatting a table on th AB Forum
Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
The snark was in the "perhaps you can enlighten us....." comment. But hey, whatever, not the end of the world. I'm not going to rail on you quite as much as some of the other posters here would.
The snark was in the "perhaps you can enlighten us....." comment. But hey, whatever, not the end of the world. I'm not going to rail on you quite as much as some of the other posters here would.
whighlander
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Re: Longfellow Place (née Garden Garage Towers) | 35 Lomasney Way | West End
DZH -- thanks -- by the way -- the bit about formatting tables was quite sincere -- we do insert a lot of tables into the discussions and the formatting is tedious at best and often not even successful
DZH -- thanks -- by the way -- the bit about formatting tables was quite sincere -- we do insert a lot of tables into the discussions and the formatting is tedious at best and often not even successful