"The Beat" | 135 Morrissey (Boston Globe Site) | Dorchester

[Equilibria]

Re: Globe Site

Since you live in North Cambridge, would you be agreeable to 3 more of those housing project towers across from Alewife in your neighborhood? Go ahead and start striving for that and see what happens.

Actually, Alewife is being pretty seriously built up. There's about 3 large apartment projects underway there, and Cambridge is actively pursuing density. Now if the MBTA would only get with the program and pedestrianize the station...

If you can't build a 150 foot tower next to Storrow Drive along Beacon Street anymore, despite it being nearly the same distance to many public transit and commuting options as Globe Site, and the near same access to the water that Beacon Street has, why should the Globe site turn into a massing freak show?

I'm sympathetic to your argument, because I've been the one arguing before that the sorts of broad stroke proposals thrown around on this site don't reflect the needs of the surrounding neighborhood. If you're trying to argue that other neighborhoods in Boston don't have to deal with height, however, the Back Bay is a pretty bad example. The closest areas of the Back Bay to transit are pretty darn tall.

I like a larger (and taller 8 to 10 stories version) of what Fido built at Oak Grove. Walkable shops, integration into the overall neighborhood (through Savin Hill, not JFK), streetscape retail, but no Walgreen's/CVS/Five Guys/Panera. Public Space (Dare I say an elementary school?), and yes, some parking.

What your fantasies for this site are also forgetting is that the Mayor lives within shouting distance of this site. You don't think this thing isn't going to planned properly with a healthy respect for all the parties involved? Don't under estimate the political power of this neighborhood. All of Dot can't be covered with one brushstroke. This area will surprise you. You are going to end up with larger versions of West Square here, not the World Trade Center / Seaport.

Here's the thing, though: you can't have it both ways. You can't push for walkability and neighborhood-friendly density and still have your near-freeway of a boulevard running alongside, and the reason is access. The thing is ten lanes wide, dude! The Globe site has no access other than its access road portions. If you try to develop the site with Morissey in this configuration, you either get towers in a park with limited access or a strip mall, and I suspect neither will make you or the neighborhood happy.

Ideally, you want an extension of what's already there - medium density 8-10 stories tall, continued across a reduced 4-lane Morissey into the Bayside Expo site. The commercial square can serve as a "college town" for UMass, making it feel a little less like a place apart. Devote some portion of the site to new trails and wetlands to both beautify it and improve pedestrian connectivity (you might want a new ped bridge or 2 over 93 as well).

 

[JohnCostello]

Re: Globe Site

What's wrong with Assembly? I was thinking that it is a great model for this site.

What is it about Assembly that wouldn't work for the area?

Home Depot, Christmas Tree Shop, Too much parking, a massive self storage building for a start. Dot already has that at South Bay. No need for South Bay II. That is a massive site next to the X-Way and now commuter rail. Like the Globe site, South Bay and Assembly were industrial sites that were taken over under massive, get it built quick developments (Assembly Square 1975, not today). I would argue that there is a much clearer public benefit to having two grocery stores at South Bay as opposed to the People's Liberation Army made crap at Christmas Tree Shops. However, Assembly Square, especially with Partners coming in, is still an auto oriented development and the transit commuting population will be secondary. The Globe should be more residential than commercial.

 

[JohnCostello]

Re: Globe Site

I'm not arguing against density, just who wants any more 150/200 foot towers at Alewife? Those towers are Cabrini Green in a sea of low to mid-rise.

As far as Morrissey goes, you cannot bring Morrissey Boulevard down to less than 6 lanes. It is a major traffic artery for the South Shore and for Dorchester. It would be like making Memorial Drive one lane. Even if you give everyone on the T warm towels and foot massages you are not going to get a certain segment of people onto a 40 year old train which will get stuck between Broadway and Andrew twice a week. If you make Morrissey narrower you will cause traffic on the Expressway, Quincy, and South Boston roads to get worse.

No one is going to walk over a pedestrian bridge over the expressway and the T tracks and end up where, on Sydney Street? What then? How many houses are you going to have to take out for an approach on the west side. The bridge would have to start behind the Old St. Williams to accommodate the ramps. Access to the Globe site can be made over Savin Hill Court and Savin Hill Avenue for pedestrian access to the remainder of the neighborhood. Has anyone on these posts (Other than 02124) looked at this site? Have you ever walked the area?

 

[Equilibria]

Re: Globe Site

I'm not arguing against density, just who wants any more 150/200 foot towers at Alewife? Those towers are Cabrini Green in a sea of low to mid-rise.

As far as Morrissey goes, you cannot bring Morrissey Boulevard down to less than 6 lanes. It is a major traffic artery for the South Shore and for Dorchester. It would be like making Memorial Drive one lane. Even if you give everyone on the T warm towels and foot massages you are not going to get a certain segment of people onto a 40 year old train which will get stuck between Broadway and Andrew twice a week. If you make Morrissey narrower you will cause traffic on the Expressway, Quincy, and South Boston roads to get worse.

No one is going to walk over a pedestrian bridge over the expressway and the T tracks and end up where, on Sydney Street? What then? How many houses are you going to have to take out for an approach on the west side. The bridge would have to start behind the Old St. Williams to accommodate the ramps. Access to the Globe site can be made over Savin Hill Court and Savin Hill Avenue for pedestrian access to the remainder of the neighborhood. Has anyone on these posts (Other than 02124) looked at this site? Have you ever walked the area?

Fine. Make it 6. 6 is still less than 10. The pedestrian bridge was a bad suggestion - I misremembered what I'd seen in Google Earth.

I'm pretty sure that the development I suggested was, other than those two elements, essentially the same as what you've described. You have to let go of the idea that no one from outside the neighborhood should be allowed to think about this - I know the Mayor lives there, but the developer won't, the BRA people don't, and the financiers and corporate types who will decide whether anything gets built on the Globe site don't either.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Globe Site

How about a something over four stories on Mass. Ave. in Lexington? Why would the people of Columbia / Savin Hill and the established urban streetscape have to suddenly deal with a 1,000 foot building lording over them? Are you the ghost of Ed Logue?

John -- as soon as you get into Transit territory on Mass Ave in Arlington -- you do get apartment buildings well over 4 stories.

Remember that in Lexington Center in addition to the Back Bay-like historic district -- you only have two T buses per hour [excepting a doubling for the morning and evening busiest hour] -- that means that every unit needs to be treated as a single family house as far as parking is concerned.

Am I the ghost of Ed Logue -- no but I do like channeling Frank Sargent at the rally for Park Plaza

 

[whighlander]

Re: Globe Site

I'm not arguing against density, just who wants any more 150/200 foot towers at Alewife? Those towers are Cabrini Green in a sea of low to mid-rise.

As far as Morrissey goes, you cannot bring Morrissey Boulevard down to less than 6 lanes. It is a major traffic artery for the South Shore and for Dorchester. It would be like making Memorial Drive one lane. Even if you give everyone on the T warm towels and foot massages you are not going to get a certain segment of people onto a 40 year old train which will get stuck between Broadway and Andrew twice a week. If you make Morrissey narrower you will cause traffic on the Expressway, Quincy, and South Boston roads to get worse.

No one is going to walk over a pedestrian bridge over the expressway and the T tracks and end up where, on Sydney Street? What then? How many houses are you going to have to take out for an approach on the west side. The bridge would have to start behind the Old St. Williams to accommodate the ramps. Access to the Globe site can be made over Savin Hill Court and Savin Hill Avenue for pedestrian access to the remainder of the neighborhood. Has anyone on these posts (Other than 02124) looked at this site? Have you ever walked the area?

John -- no one would build the 3 Alewife Towers today -- those were a Cabrini Green -era stick the poo-fook in some out of the way place -- remember that era Alewife was the end of Cambridge - -as far from the Squaaaaaah as possible

The best thing that could happen to those towers is to recapture them into the private sector and let some developers at them - -reduce the density of some of the floors to create some upper-scale units and build a few more lower rise towers to gradually blend into the rest of the neighborhood

I think that the Freshpond Shopping Center could be more urbanized by:
1) adding a Parking Garage
2) putting some glass mid-rise towers in the center of the existing lots
3) adding some residences above the existing office level above the shops
4) do some additional street work around the existing entrance and the back door under Freshpond Parkway

 

[fattony]

Re: Globe Site

Home Depot, Christmas Tree Shop, Too much parking, a massive self storage building for a start. Dot already has that at South Bay. No need for South Bay II. That is a massive site next to the X-Way and now commuter rail. Like the Globe site, South Bay and Assembly were industrial sites that were taken over under massive, get it built quick developments (Assembly Square 1975, not today). I would argue that there is a much clearer public benefit to having two grocery stores at South Bay as opposed to the People's Liberation Army made crap at Christmas Tree Shops. However, Assembly Square, especially with Partners coming in, is still an auto oriented development and the transit commuting population will be secondary. The Globe should be more residential than commercial.

You are talking about the old Assembly and not at all what I was thinking of. Everything new they are building there is totally decent. The biggest difference between there and the globe site is that at Assembly the T stop is on one edge and the old boxes on the other edge, with the "urban enough" new development in between. At the Globe, you have the Shaw's and a couple other buildings between the site and JFK, right?

Maybe a developer could buy all that land, knock down everything from the T station to Pattens Cove, and build an Assembly-style self-contained neighborhood. It can have its main thoroughfare as a 2-lane right down the center and it can turn it's back to Morrissey Highway, um, I mean Boulevard. You can have a half-mile long strip of retail topped by 6-8 (10?) stories of mostly residential with a handful of offices (to create a lunch crowd for the restaurants).

They could build in phases, starting with a new home for Shaw's before tearing down the old one. Obviously there will need to be parking garages because everyone shopping at that Shaw's today is going to want to continue. Also, while it is sandwiched between 2 T stops, this would hardly be a car-free living zone.

 

[pixelsand8]

Re: Globe Site

Somehow these "Cabrini Green" towers don't bother me even though they dominate my view from my apartment. As far as I know they aren't a pit of crime either, I walk by them all the time and have yet to be mugged or attacked. No they aren't the prettiest but they are functional in that they provide affordable housing, which the city desperately needs. We certainly do not need to turn them into something more "upscale" and displace even more low income people. I actually have a much bigger problem with the lowrise portion of the public housing in terms of how it breaks up the urban fabric, as it eats further into the neighborhood, where the towers are right on the parkway.

As Equilibria has said, the area is already being built up, with luxury condos going everywhere. These people are more likely to drive and add to the clusterfuck of traffic on 2/3/16 (the biggest downside to development), but with time that is a problem that can be dealt with (in the meantime I avoid that area by car peak travel times). Still, growth is happening in this city and needs to be accommodated. There is still ample space for housing in this area, and it shouldn't be wasted in the form of squat lowrises. North Cambridge has a population density of almost 13-14k people per square mile. It's not a suburb, and I wouldn't of moved here if I expected it to act like one.

I think that the Freshpond Shopping Center could be more urbanized by:
1) adding a Parking Garage
2) putting some glass mid-rise towers in the center of the existing lots
3) adding some residences above the existing office level above the shops
4) do some additional street work around the existing entrance and the back door under Freshpond Parkway

I agree with most of this, make it something like a "lifestyle" center at Station Landing or even Derby Street, just a more urban version. The biggest problem with the area is you feel like you are walking through open parking lots. The open feel isn't always bad when it comes to the parkland but it's frustrating in the more developed areas. It will never be the most urban area but with smart planning and design I think it can lose a lot of the suburban office park feel it currently has, though this discussion probably belongs in the West Cambridge thread.

 

[HalcyonEra]

Re: Globe Site

Before we start wet dreaming about the Globe site, let's think about the Bayside poo show, and what a mess that was when development was allowed to rush in there back in the 1960's. You got the shortest lived mall ever. Columbia Point was built, with massing, and it quickly looked like the Hue scene from Full Metal Jacket (which was also filmed in a failed housing project). Any redevelopment of the Globe needs to be done on a livable scale. I don't want Assembly Square there. I want something that works for the neighborhood and the future.

I like a larger (and taller 8 to 10 stories version) of what Fido built at Oak Grove. Walkable shops, integration into the overall neighborhood (through Savin Hill, not JFK), streetscape retail, but no Walgreen's/CVS/Five Guys/Panera. Public Space (Dare I say an elementary school?), and yes, some parking.

While your desire for local retail is certainly noble, I seriously doubt you are going to keep out of the large chains. Our government has systematically ruined small business and continues to do so.

The fact is, 16 acres of prime real estate is going to sell at a high cost. I've heard $70M (and considering JH paid $75M for the Globe, I guess that really says something about the value of the broadsheet more than anything else). Anyway, the ROI for the developer is going require density, height and high rents, for both retail and residential absent some form of public financing, which we all know what happens then.

You will not see a quaint neighborhood of triple deckers going up there. While Assembly Square certainly has it's issues, there are plenty of great projects elsewhere. I'd love to see a National Harbor type neighborhood built up there. Between BC High, ,UMass and even the JFK library, to me at least, access is restrictive, despite the parks and harborwalk. There needs to a draw to that area, lest we end up with yet another insulated neighborhood.

 

[Ron Newman]

Re: Globe Site

no Walgreen's/CVS/Five Guys/Panera

You don't want that to dominate, but you need some of it. Ask anyone in Kendall Square about that area's mystifying lack of a drugstore.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: Globe Site

While your desire for local retail is certainly noble, I seriously doubt you are going to keep out of the large chains. Our government has systematically ruined small business and continues to do so.

That's not the biggest reason. The biggest reason is that if you build 15 storefronts simultaneously and open them up, how do you propose to find 15 civic-minded entrepreneurs in the neighborhood ready to open a mom-and-pop pharmacy, grocer or hardware store? Small business is organic, big business is manufactured, and every one of these businesses will be located in a manufactured space owned by a developer looking for a much more reliable tenant than a local who wants to open a business.

If you're lucky, maybe a local cafe wants to open a branch or a local stationary store wants to relocate. That's a tiny minority of storefronts filled by local businesses and the maximum possible number.

 

[PaulC]

Re: Globe Site

Paul Losordo, Chambers’ corporate counsel, admitted that the former WLVI parcel, which is sandwiched between the Boston Globe’s headquarters and the Greater Boston Media building, is the “small step child” of the bigger properties. Losordo said Chambers “won’t stand in your way” if the master plan goes into development.

“We’re a place holder. We’re not going in there doing anything major. We’re making an unattractive building into an attractive one,” Losordo said.

http://www.dotnews.com/2012/chambers-presents-columbia-point-dealership-plans-draws-concern-over-m

 

[whighlander]

Re: Globe Site

You will not see a quaint neighborhood of triple deckers going up there. While Assembly Square certainly has it's issues, there are plenty of great projects elsewhere. I'd love to see a National Harbor type neighborhood built up there. Between BC High, ,UMass and even the JFK library, to me at least, access is restrictive, despite the parks and harborwalk. There needs to a draw to that area, lest we end up with yet another insulated neighborhood.

Halcyon -- You identified the reason in your own statement "Between BC High, ,UMass and even the JFK library" -- all of those are institutions which especially these days are security conscious

The best you are likely to get after full build-out in 10 to 15 years is expanded institutions'-footprints, expanded & enhanced harbor walk and some sort of small public park

The rest is likely going to be inkblock-area type of mid-rise development here and there with whatever filling in the small lots and remnant miniblocks

 

[kmp1284]

Re: Globe Site

Nothing earth shattering but things are still moving.

http://www.boston.com/business/news...-the-market/OlOuU63kyBCbHLJio47cBO/story.html

 

[Savin Hill]

Re: Globe Site

Boston Globe's site contamination hampers development options

The Boston Globe’s headquarters along Morrissey Boulevard in Dorchester are so contaminated that environmental officials have banned any work or potential development that might disturb sections of chemical-soaked soil in their present state, according to a Massachusetts Department of Environmental Protection ruling reviewed by the Boston Business Journal.

The restrictions, which stem from decades-old pollution from underground fuel tanks, could complicate any plans to potentially sell or develop the Globe’s 16-acre parcel following its soon-to-close sale to billionaire investor and Boston Red Sox owner John Henry. When that deal will close is now up in the air, as The Worcester Telegram & Gazette reported today that a Worcester judge on Friday blocked the Globe's sale in light of a class-action lawsuit filed by the independent newspaper carriers in 2009.

Henry’s all-cash bid for the Globe and its affiliated properties has been heralded as a master stroke since his $70 million offer was accepted by the Times in August. The accolades have largely stemmed from the widely held assumption that Henry could easily recoup most of his investment with the sale or development of the newspaper company’s sprawling headquarters.

As first reported by the BBJ in September, sources familiar with this summer’s bidding for New England Media Group, which includes the Globe, the Worcester Telegram & Gazette and various online and printing concerns, say every proposal included plans to sell the Globe’s 670,000-square-foot headquarters and move its operations to a smaller space. The bids were solicited on behalf of the Times by New York investment bank Evercore Partners.

According to confidential financial documents prepared by Evercore and interviews with local real estate sources, the Morrissey Boulevard property has been valued between $29 million and $71 million. The Evercore report noted that the higher end of those appraisals was based on an “in-use” valuation, meaning the Globe’s headquarters would continue to operate as a printing and newspaper distribution facility under a new owner.

John Henry was not available for comment. The Boston Globe and New York Times both declined to comment.

According to state environmental records, the Globe’s contamination problems were first documented in an on-site property audit conducted by Green Environmental Inc. of Quincy in August 1996. The report cited two areas — an 8,025-square-foot parcel on the northeast corner of the Globe’s campus, and another 44,100-square-foot parcel central to the property — containing “hazardous material in soil and/or groundwater” that posed “significant risk” to the health and safety of anyone exposed to the contamination in question.

A spokesman for the DEP confirmed that some or all of the contaminants outlined in the Green Environmental report stem from spillage and leakage of diesel fuel stored and distributed from tanks on the Globe’s property. Green Environmental did not return a call in reference to the original property audit.

In 2002, Green Environmental once again was hired to amend its initial report to include specific uses and activities that were both permitted and prohibited on the Globe’s property. Those findings, which were reiterated in a follow-up inspection overseen by the DEP in 2008, prohibited the site’s use as a “residence, school or daycare facility.” The follow-up report also banned various activities, such as excavation, that might disturb the petroleum-contaminated soil beneath the pavement and buildings atop the hazardous areas first detailed in 1996.

DEP officials and local environmental experts say contamination issues are common in urban areas that have served as commercial or industrial properties, and that rehabilitation is often an option. They also agree that the costs and extent of remediation or removal of hazardous materials vary by property and can easily reach into the tens-of-millions in extreme examples.

Tom Sheehan, a civil & environmental engineering professor at Northeastern University, said toxic cleanups are determined by many factors and that no two projects are ever the same. He said costs are highly dependent on the volume of soil in question as well as factors such as whether it can be treated in place or requires removal and disposal at a certified location.

“Because we live in an old industrial portion of the United States, this is a pretty common problem for an urban area,” said Sheehan, who has no involvement with the Globe property.

The Green Environmental reports highlight a number of permitted uses for the Globe’s property, all of which are either industrial or commercial in nature or consistent with required maintenance or utility work. To begin the process of potentially cleaning the site for other uses, the property’s owner would first need to provide a Health and Safety Plan as well as a Soil Management Plan prepared by a licensed soil expert and certified industrial hygienist, respectively.

Another complicating factor, relative to potential cleanup efforts at the Globe’s home, is the fact that the area is mostly land-filled marshland. Environmental experts say such areas can often see mineral and chemical content shift over time due to the presence of water and loosely packed soil beneath the surface.

The BBJ first reported in August that the New England Media Group’s total revenue is expected to fall to $363.8 million next year, off 18 percent from the $440.6 million booked in 2009. Despite around $35 million in cost cuts teed up through 2014, the company has forecasted nearly $20 million in net operating losses over the next two fiscal years.

http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/n...-globes-contaminated-property-a.html?page=all

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Re: Globe Site

That isn't going to stop a developer. The sale price might go down and it might take a few more years but that won't change anything.

 

[TheBostonian]

Re: Globe Site

I'm not seeing the contamination as a major roadblock to a sale and redevelopment. Sure, in places with little development pressure, even the suspicion of contamination can slow redevelopment. But the contamination here has been tested and quantified to some extent, so addressing it can be considered like any other cost of building.

Also, the contamination doesn't sound very serious, since it can be kept in place as long as the site isn't used for a "residence, school, or daycare facility".

 

[gyro]

Re: Globe Site

this kind of contamination is in sites all the time and you never hear about it in the news.

 

[Mike]

Re: Globe Site

I remember reading about the Herald site having the same problems.

 

[Brad Plaid]

Re: Globe Site

Boston Globe's site contamination hampers development options
The Boston Globe’s headquarters along Morrissey Boulevard in Dorchester are so contaminated that environmental officials have banned any work or potential development that might disturb sections of chemical-soaked soil in their present state, according to a Massachusetts Department of Environmental Protection ruling reviewed by the Boston Business Journal.
http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/n...-globes-contaminated-property-a.html?page=all

Hilarious. Decades of the Globe's politically correct propaganda leave a poisonous legacy in the soil. Only way to deal with this is to cap it with a thick, thick layer of objective truth and hope it can contain all of that toxic ideology. Again, hilarious.