The Hub on Causeway (née TD Garden Towers) | 80 Causeway Street | West End

As can be seen on the webcam, since this past weekend they've been pouring new interior cast-in-place concrete walls inside the steel framing in the theater portion of the podium. I assume these are for sound control. Can't say this is something I've ever seen before in any other commercial or residential tower.
 
No thanks, I will pass on that. Lets focus on 4-5 story infill/builds on major streets (Washington, Dot Ave, Hyde Park Ave, Centre, Hungtington, Blue Hill Ave, Warren, etc, with mixed use ground floor retail (no setbacks) and 3-4+ floors of housing above, along with further density in the core/downtown neighborhoods.

Yeah thatll solve our housing problem.

:rolleyes:
 
Bostons height problem isnt the lack of sueprtalls, it's the lack of anything higher than 4 floors when you go half a mile out of downtown.

The only exception are college dorms.

Forget Long Island City and Jersey City. Look at the Bronx.

This is what development should look like in Brighton, Roxbury, Quincy, etc.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.856...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1swkF5I-GQIny1hr13buVKrw!2e0

Except the ugly part. It doesnt have to be ugly.

For reference, that link is a 40 minute subway ride from midtown, or almost 9 miles.

Thats almost the same as South Station to Braintree. Except Braintree is single family detached homes.

Yeah thatll solve our housing problem.

:rolleyes:


Yeah, it actually probably will, and it is already starting to be be done (and we have seen prices level for rent).
 
No thanks, I will pass on that. Lets focus on 4-5 story infill/builds on major streets (Washington, Dot Ave, Hyde Park Ave, Centre, Hungtington, Blue Hill Ave, Warren, etc, with mixed use ground floor retail (no setbacks) and 3-4+ floors of housing above, along with further density in the core/downtown neighborhoods.

The major streets should be seeing much bigger than 4-5 story infill. This is particularly true near transit. The side streets should be going 4-5 stories, while the main roads go more like 10-40.
 
The major streets should be seeing much bigger than 4-5 story infill. This is particularly true near transit. The side streets should be going 4-5 stories, while the main roads go more like 10-40.

Yep. Look at lower Boylston in the Fenway. 10-20 along the corridor, 5 on the adjacent streets. If we could get up to that level, we could squeeze a lot more people in without losing much of the feeling the city already has. It'd feel like Manhattan between 20th and 30th--nothing too crazy.
 
The major streets should be seeing much bigger than 4-5 story infill. This is particularly true near transit. The side streets should be going 4-5 stories, while the main roads go more like 10-40.

Sure, in the core. Don't really need that 9+ hours out or down Hyde Park Ave - I don't see that as economical.

Yep. Look at lower Boylston in the Fenway. 10-20 along the corridor, 5 on the adjacent streets. If we could get up to that level, we could squeeze a lot more people in without losing much of the feeling the city already has. It'd feel like Manhattan between 20th and 30th--nothing too crazy.

Which is pretty much a brand new development. Like I said - higher in the core is good, but getting out to the outer neighborhoods 4-5ish mixed used stories will also help. Also lived on 33rd & 8th for awhile - its nice, but, I don't think the majority of people want Boston to 'feel like Manhattan' (not that I think it would anyways).
 
I should have been more clear that I meant to use the area delineation as a way to clarify that I don't want or need the city to turn into Manhattan. I think when people talk about New York they picture Midtown, when really a lot of Manhattan is just dense multistory apartments, and the outer boroughs are a lot of tightly clustered single and multifamilies like we already have. I'm just suggesting we push the slider a little toward the buildings and less toward the houses. In general we agree.
 
To make housing more affordable construction and permitting costs need to fall. It's is difficult to get projects approved and built in places, so that should change. But with regards to construction costs, that's a tougher problem to tackle. And i'd argue that construction costs and inflated land values are as big if not bigger contributor to the housing squeeze in the Boston area rather then the permitting and zoning. And there is no easy solution to that problem, other then use the Dubai method of using underpaid migrant workers (which will never happen).
 
To make housing more affordable construction and permitting costs need to fall. It's is difficult to get projects approved and built in places, so that should change. But with regards to construction costs, that's a tougher problem to tackle. And i'd argue that construction costs and inflated land values are as big if not bigger contributor to the housing squeeze in the Boston area rather then the permitting and zoning. And there is no easy solution to that problem, other then use the Dubai method of using underpaid migrant workers (which will never happen).

This is way off topic, but construction costs only increase housing costs to the extent that they limit development and create scarcity. With the exception of projects built on decks, practically never is there a proposed development that would be allowed to add additional housing units under zoning rules and regulations but is held back because construction costs are prohibitive. Newly developed space goes for so much $ these days that practically anything that is allowed to be built by the regulators turns a profit. Thus, scarcity is driven by permitting and regulation, not construction costs.

Land values are high because of this scarcity. That's an outcome of restrictive zoning and regulation and completely unrelated from construction costs.

When it comes to infrastructure, there it's a whole 'nother story. In that sector construction cost (and operating cost in the case of public transit) is the driver of scarcity, not restrictive regulation.
 
Land values are high because of this scarcity. That's an outcome of restrictive zoning and regulation and completely unrelated from construction costs.

When it comes to infrastructure, there it's a whole 'nother story. In that sector construction cost (and operating cost in the case of public transit) is the driver of scarcity, not restrictive regulation.

This is why the current Hub on Causeway project should have gone at least 50% bigger. It's right on top of an EXISTING major transit hub! In particular, it's absolutely ridiculous the way they scaled down the residential tower and patted themselves on the back for it. The BPDA should have pushed back on this, but they are too short-sighted and small-minded.

Instead we overbuild in transit starved areas like the Seaport, and underbuild around the busiest train stations in the city. Then we wonder why there is a housing crisis, a traffic crisis, a hotel crisis... It's really pathetic all around.
 
This is way off topic, but construction costs only increase housing costs to the extent that they limit development and create scarcity. With the exception of projects built on decks, practically never is there a proposed development that would be allowed to add additional housing units under zoning rules and regulations but is held back because construction costs are prohibitive. Newly developed space goes for so much $ these days that practically anything that is allowed to be built by the regulators turns a profit. Thus, scarcity is driven by permitting and regulation, not construction costs.

Land values are high because of this scarcity. That's an outcome of restrictive zoning and regulation and completely unrelated from construction costs.

When it comes to infrastructure, there it's a whole 'nother story. In that sector construction cost (and operating cost in the case of public transit) is the driver of scarcity, not restrictive regulation.

I will disagree with this as much as possible. Construction costs (union labor) is very high. This is part of the cost to build which much be recouped. This high cost drives the developer to build "luxury" housing to ensure ROI. Lower construction cost could allow for more affordable housing. Unfortunately, most likely they would charge the same to sell/rent it, and pocket the difference.
 
I will disagree with this as much as possible. Construction costs (union labor) is very high. This is part of the cost to build which much be recouped. This high cost drives the developer to build "luxury" housing to ensure ROI. Lower construction cost could allow for more affordable housing. Unfortunately, most likely they would charge the same to sell/rent it, and pocket the difference.

Your last sentence (which is 100% accurate) is in direct contradiction to your first four.

"Luxury" is built because there's demand for it and it makes the most money. This is true with inexpensive construction as much as it is true with expensive construction. Even if construction were free, developers would still build "luxury" as long as that's what the market demands.

The only way to get developers to shift below "luxury" is to build enough housing so that market demand for "luxury" is satiated. Then they will have to move along the demand curve to targeting consumers with lower willingness to spend. The only way you generate enough units to do this is by loosening zoning and regulatory limits.

Obviously, there are some projects that would happen if construction were cheaper (such as the decking projects I previously mentioned), but the quantity of those pales in comparison to the quantity that zoning/regulation holds back.



Volkswagen Group sells both $120k Audis and $20k Jettas. The $120k Audis don't cost anywhere near 6x the production cost of the $20k Jettas, so the company makes way better profit on the expensive cars than the cheap cars. However, there are only so many people who will drop 6 figures on a car, so Volkswagen (and all other car manufacturers) produce a huge diversified lineup of vehicles at various pricepoints to target as many consumers as possible. They only do this, however, because there is no cap on the number of cars they can produce. In this world of unlimited production, a drop in the manufacturing cost of a car would lead through to a drop in price, as car companies would pass these savings along so as to expand their customer base.

However, if regulators only allowed, say, 25k cars to be produced every year, you can be 100% sure that Volkswagen would keep selling those $120k Audis but would drop their lineup of Jettas in a heartbeat. All other manufacturers would do the same. Lowering the cost of producing cars wouldn't change this; as long as there's a cap on quantity manufacturers will focus only on the highest prices. There's no point in lowering prices to expand your customer base when quantity is set by regulators.

This is the situation we have in the housing market. We produce $120k Audis in buildings like One Dalton and Millennium Tower, and $70k Audis in buildings like all those apartments in the Seaport and Fenway. But we don't allow enough construction to make it worth it to produce a Jetta.
 
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Your last sentence (which is 100% accurate) is in direct contradiction to your first four.

"Luxury" is built because there's demand for it and it makes the most money. This is true with inexpensive construction as much as it is true with expensive construction. Even if construction were free, developers would still build "luxury" as long as that's what the market demands.

The only way to get developers to shift below "luxury" is to build enough housing so that market demand for "luxury" is satiated. Then they will have to move along the demand curve to targeting consumers with lower willingness to spend. The only way you generate enough units to do this is by loosening zoning and regulatory limits.
Or you force developers to build affordable elsewhere in the city. You would have to overbuild Boston's core with luxury towers before the market is saturated. This is because the demand doesn't only exist within the city of Boston boundary, but rather demand is also coming from the metro and outer suburb as well as internationally. When will this happen? 10? 20 years from now? We don't have that. The housing problem exists now.

Also great use of the car market for the analogy. I remember using this analogy awhile back to explain to someone here that the housing market does have different types of markets and is not just one single market.
 
Or you force developers to build affordable elsewhere in the city. You would have to overbuild Boston's core with luxury towers before the market is saturated. This is because the demand doesn't only exist within the city of Boston boundary, but rather demand is also coming from the metro and outer suburb as well as internationally. When will this happen? 10? 20 years from now? We don't have that. The housing problem exists now.

Also great use of the car market for the analogy. I remember using this analogy awhile back to explain to someone here that the housing market does have different types of markets and is not just one single market.

Forcing developers to build affordable housing (and by forced it obviously means not economically feasible to do so) you are increasing costs which makes them focus only on luxury housing to support the additional costs.
 
Forcing developers to build affordable housing (and by forced it obviously means not economically feasible to do so) you are increasing costs which makes them focus only on luxury housing to support the additional costs.

I'm not following the logic chain here. Developers would build affordable units, but because we require them to build affordable units they will focus on luxury...or something.

They focus is on luxury housing because that's where the most money is. Inclusionary zoning may reduce overall profitability, but it's not a primary driver of a focus on luxury housing. The previous posts here, like the one by Jumbo, have explained why it makes sense for developers to focus on luxury units.

I'm all in favor of going taller and building more units, but requiring affordable units does not reduce the number of affordable units, as your post seems to suggest.
 
I'm all in favor of going taller and building more units, but requiring affordable units does not reduce the number of affordable units, as your post seems to suggest.

Requiring affordable units raises the cost of the rest of the units. I think the suggestion is if we didn't have the ridiculous lottery system, they could build even more total units that are more affordable than just luxury, without actually falling into the "affordable units" requirement. Instead those lower priced units force the developers to recoup their costs with higher priced units for everybody else.
 
Forcing developers to build affordable housing (and by forced it obviously means not economically feasible to do so) you are increasing costs which makes them focus only on luxury housing to support the additional costs.

And not forcing developers will result in them focusing on building luxury housing also. Guess which one will result in creating affordable housing (and more housing units in general as affordable housing takes up fewer space than luxury ones).
 
Instead those lower priced units force the developers to recoup their costs with higher priced units for everybody else.

No, not for everybody else. Only those that can even afford it in the first place. To those in the middle class, the increase in pricing makes no difference as they were never in the market for it. However by requiring developers to build affordable housing, either onsite or in a location further out from the core, those in the middle class can actually be part of the market.
 
The truth of the matter is, the more luxury towers you build, the more the land value surrounding it increases, whether it is because of the amenities the new tower brings, or the scarcity of land to build on. This results in the next developer building more luxury housing to justify the cost of land. Without intervention, pretty soon affordable housing will no longer be feasible except at the fringes of the city limit and if you think this is the best way for the city to grow, then I hope you find yourself a $200,000 job soon.
 
Requiring affordable units raises the cost of the rest of the units. I think the suggestion is if we didn't have the ridiculous lottery system, they could build even more total units that are more affordable than just luxury, without actually falling into the "affordable units" requirement. Instead those lower priced units force the developers to recoup their costs with higher priced units for everybody else.

I understand the theory, which would make more sense if the developers would be building additional market-rate units. As it stands, it simply means they're raising prices on units that are already out of reach for anybody who isn't wealthy. Again, I'm in favor of increasing height and density - inclusionary zoning should allow for additional units. That developments like TD Garden are smaller than they need to be is inane, but the fault for that lies with NIMBYs, not affordable housing requirements.
 

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