The New Retail Thread

JumboBuc said:
Tenoch in Davis got tied up in regulatory approval and community meetings for a bit before they opened because they wanted to play recorded music over the speakers in their taco and torta joint. If neighbors can hold up a restaurant over that, just imagine what would happen if they tried to serve margaritas...
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Didn't know this! Come to think of it, I've never heard music there. Also, they do serve beer, so they have some sort of license for booze.

Not completely unrelated since this is new retail, but Tenoch's neighbor, Opa Greek Yeeros is expanding their footprint into the space that was occupied by the Skate Shop and the old When Pigs Fly space (they're now across from BFresh).
 
Regarding the question of whether those four bars I mentioned that just sold were owned by the same people: yes. One of them died earlier this year (brothers who have gotten up there in age). The obituary said he had "a career in real estate." The rent isn't really an issue, as they owned the land, but the next generation wasn't interested in running them, and the money was too much to pass up.
 
Does anyone know what's replacing Webster Bank on the corner of Vassar and Main?
 
Probably Goodnight for The Tam. I have a hard time imagining it survives under an investor-group ownership that will want to maximize profit at that location. I've spent way too much time drinking in that place. I'll miss it.

The number of Dive Bars in downtown Boston is almost zero if The Tam and Beacon Hill Pub disappear. That's... not good.
 
Durty Nelly’s, point, green dragon, paddy os etc, Foley’s, corner pub, dooleys, there’s still a bunch. Admittedly there’s much less as you get closer to back bay beacon hill.

What 3 bars did they buy? And who is the developer?
 
^Dive bars in Faniuel hall almost dont count as places grown up adults frequent IMO. Though Dirty Nelly's is decent.... Dive bars are disappearing, its not even a debate
 
This is all just IMO of course, but I don't really see the appeal of dive bars. If I wanted to drink cheap booze I would just buy something from the grocery store and drink it at my place. I like bars that provide something I can't do myself: well-made cocktails, a curated wine list, or draft beer from local breweries to name a few. Otherwise why pay a markup on something like Bud Light when I can get a 30-rack for $23 from the grocery store?

I'm guessing I'm not alone in my feelings which is why dive bars are in decline.
 
FenwayResident said:
This is all just IMO of course, but I don't really see the appeal of dive bars. If I wanted to drink cheap booze I would just buy something from the grocery store and drink it at my place. I like bars that provide something I can't do myself: well-made cocktails, a curated wine list, or draft beer from local breweries to name a few. Otherwise why pay a markup on something like Bud Light when I can get a 30-rack for $23 from the grocery store?

I'm guessing I'm not alone in my feelings which is why dive bars are in decline.
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You could create well-made cocktails, curate your own wine collection, or drink beer from local breweries at home too. The reason you go to a dive bar is for the atmosphere. Escape the wife/kids, zero pretense, and usually decent, easy conversation. That's definitely not for everyone either, but it's not just about the cheap beer (or even mostly about the cheap beer).

I would wager that it has more to do with the fact that the working class people who frequent the dives are being pushed out of the urban core. Dives are alive and well in the the less well-off parts of the state. I'd also say that it's comparable to the luxury housing debate - it's not feasible to build a dive bar in the center of town in this market. If you open up a bar, it's going to be "upscale" and cater to the people who are pushing the working class people out because that's where the money is.
 
Over the years, I've observed that a group of people act differently depending on the atmosphere they are put into. By way of example, I'd go to happy hour with the work crew to an upscale place and I've noticed it kind of permeates the conversation, people act more professional and corporate in their demeanor and conversation. The next week, you go out with the exact same crew to a place like the Tam, Biddy Early's, or JJ Foley's and people let loose quite a bit more. Maybe it's just people I've worked with the over the years, but I suspect this is not an aberration.

Boston needs dive bars, admittedly not everyone loves them, but they do serve a purpose!
 
Lrfox said:
You could create well-made cocktails, curate your own wine collection, or drink beer from local breweries at home too. The reason you go to a dive bar is for the atmosphere. Escape the wife/kids, zero pretense, and usually decent, easy conversation. That's definitely not for everyone either, but it's not just about the cheap beer (or even mostly about the cheap beer).

I would wager that it has more to do with the fact that the working class people who frequent the dives are being pushed out of the urban core. Dives are alive and well in the the less well-off parts of the state. I'd also say that it's comparable to the luxury housing debate - it's not feasible to build a dive bar in the center of town in this market. If you open up a bar, it's going to be "upscale" and cater to the people who are pushing the working class people out because that's where the money is.
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I could devote a fridge to all the mixers, liquers, fruits and bitters that would be required to make fancy cocktails. I could install a wine cellar in my basement storage unit. I could install a kegerator in my kitchen and drive to local breweries to pick up pony kegs. However, the value proposition for higher end bars is that I don't have to do all that which saves me a bunch of space, money and effort.

When the goal is just to hang out (as opposed to having nice booze) my friends will all travel to one of our own apartments and everyone just brings their own booze. We can pick our own music, sit on comfortable couches, and save a ton of money.

My personal experience is that no one really goes to dives 2-3 years after graduating college. If you want to hook up you have dating apps. If you want to drink cheaply you hang out at home. If you want quality booze you go to an upscale place. Of course, my experience is based on the people I associate with - largely young, urban, professionals so my anecdotes are biased towards a certain demographic.

Anyway, I've been to The Tam and Beacon Hill Pub a few times and while they weren't my thing I can totally see how they appeal to others. And I agree 100% that they are a necessary part of any city. I'm just trying to shine some light on what I see as one of the forces behind them closing down.
 
FenwayResident said:
My personal experience is that no one really goes to dives 2-3 years after graduating college.
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any actual dive bar is populated (not entirely, but certainly a sizable chunk) by older regulars who've been going for decades.

sounds like you're confusing dive bars with college bars.

the cambridgeport, khourey's state spa, river street, the abbey lounge, the paddock were dive bars.

old sully's, whitey's, echo bridge still are dive bars. depending on the day/time of day, sligo, the tam, and even the sillhouette are still kind of dive bars.
 
chrisbrat said:
any actual dive bar is populated (not entirely, but certainly a sizable chunk) by older regulars who've been going for decades.

sounds like you're confusing dive bars with college bars.

the cambridgeport, khourey's state spa, river street, the abbey lounge, the paddock were dive bars.

old sully's, whitey's, echo bridge still are dive bars. depending on the day/time of day, sligo, the tam, and even the sillhouette are still kind of dive bars.
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I'd define a dive bar as:

- Cheap drinks
- Limited selection
- No-frills/run down decor
- Bar service only
- Regulars

In that sense dive bars and college bars are not mutually exclusive. If you're limiting the definition of dive bar to "must have a bunch of old people" then of course it's going to exclude college bars - but I don't agree with that definition.

Anyway, this is arguing semantics. I think my larger point holds that the young professionals moving to Boston are eschewing dive bars since they don't really add value to that demographic.
 
Could the appeal for dive bars be more as an option for lower income people to have fun too?
 
A dive bar to me has billiards, darts, shuffleboard, Buck Hunter, and maybe some basic table games (backgammon). Everything is sticky. Bud Lite is $2. The overpriced jukebox is playing Meat Loaf.

You can't get that in your studio apartment.

Luckily, NYC is still full of them
 
FenwayResident said:
I'm just trying to shine some light on what I see as one of the forces behind them closing down.
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I would still argue that it's definitely more about the ROI on the property and the exodus of working class people from the central parts of the city.

Dive bar demographics are anchored by older (typically 40+) working class types looking for a no-frills escape from work/home, cheap booze, easy company, billiards, darts, etc. But they're really for everyone. College kids and recent grads appreciate the cheap booze and irony of drinking in dives. Professionals appreciate an escape from the pretense surrounding the professional work environment, and in a good dive, all of the different groups seem to do well together.

Boston is losing that anchor in the core of the city. The guys who used to make up that demographic are no longer living in/near the city center. Rents are simultaneously increasing. So it makes more sense to open a high end cocktail bar in downtown Boston than it does to keep a dive going if 1) the margins are going to be better on the cocktail bar and 2) the key demographic is dwindling in/around downtown Boston.

Pop into more working class areas in Worcester, Lowell, New Bedford, any town on the Route 2 corridor, etc. and the dive is alive and well.
 
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