Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Bad enough Millennium has never been interested in an observation deck or even a (quasi) accessible dining room. It's now not close to the standard of the stature, size, importance, or historical and cultural relevance of Boston. Add that the City is growing in so many aspects. The planned building isn't prepared to meet the future. We need a much better/more-beautiful design.

or.....

While other skylines get to evolve, this section (let's be honest, the whole damn thing) is almost kaput. dominated by some of the worst goddamned buildings in North America, it never gets to fill in with several 600-750', high a/r towers to fix it..... call me jaded for my angst our skyline never got to rise to match with the footprint of the sub region it represents. Worse, we have no fewer than half dozen approved skyscrapers that might never go u/c. They sure would have helped.
 
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Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

while i share your frustration with the direction this parcel has taken (and other missed opportunities), i do believe you're going a little overboard.

just last night i was watching 'the town' with a girl -- worth remembering that this was filmed well before MT and other notable additions in the past decade -- and she repeatedly remarked on how beautiful boston's skyline is.

only one person and, yes, it's just a subjective opinion, but i think it supports the argument that it's all too easy to take disappointments and make them into larger disasters than they are.

i, also, think that boston has a great skyline. are there some boring, brown, squat duds in there? absolutely. i was in NYC not too far back and there are plenty of duds in manhattan, too. i was in dallas two weeks ago and, holy god -- tons of fugly crap and terrible overall layout/planning.

until/unless this design gets changed and improved it is an absolute clunker which i join you in despising, but don't jump off the ledge.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Soon, the only unbuilt parcels left in the core of Boston (might be) approved low to medium height skyscrapers. i find this state of affairs in a major American city, especially one with the economic status of Boston stunning.

(However unlikely), maybe in a few years, after I've completed my memoir, 'how i stopped worrying and learned to love infill,' things would have changed.

Riding her in..... :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6O6T8HexRM
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

^WTF. And stop it with your alarmist there's no space left rhetoric.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

We got annihilated. A once exciting project degenerated into a VE'd fiasco. in any case, i'll drop my justifiable sarcasm a minute and join your discussion....

We have a robust office and residential market, including a fair amount of justification for some mega tall projects. Funny then, we don't see this reflected in the form of much of any talk about future skyscrapers. Someone would have leaked something. Can you explain this?

Talking anything close to serious height, we have a grand total of 3 parcels proposed for >180m for what will be the near to very distant future. Still waiting for anyone to show the parcels that have any realistic chance of being redeveloped with tall buildings.

1. 1 Bromfield Street 709'
2. 115 Federal Street 691'
3. Harbor Garage Tower 600'

over the horizon; nuthin.

Approved;

1. South Station Tower 677'
2. 1 Congress St 647'

Downtown? 1 Bromfield appears to have been quietly sacked.

Back Bay? shadows over brick and grassy things will stop it. Is Parcel 15 still worthy for consideration as a tall proposal?

West End near the Charles (anytime in the near term)? no way.

Downtown/West End at the State Services Bldg? tough to say. why wasn't it included in the Amazon RFP?

The fact is, i'm right.

i could have returned your suggestion of what i can or cannot post with an expletive. How about pointing out where a skyline altering thing might get built. Not 375' crap you can't see from Malden. But something actually tall for a height starved medium sized American City.
 
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Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

A once exciting project has degenerated into a veritable fiasco. in any case, i'll drop my justifiable sarcasm a minute and join your discussion....

We have a robust office and residential market, including a fair amount of justification for some mega tall projects. Funny then, we don't see this reflected in the form of much of any talk about future skyscrapers. Someone would have leaked something. Can you explain this?

Talking anything close to serious height, we have a grand total of 3 parcels proposed for >180m for what will be the near to very distant future. Still waiting for anyone to show the parcels that have any realistic chance of being redeveloped with tall buildings.

1. 1 Bromfield Street 709'
2. 115 Federal Street 691'
3. Harbor Garage Tower 600'

Approved;

1. South Station Tower 677'
2. 1 Congress St 647'

Downtown? 1 Bromfield appears to have been quietly sacked.

Back Bay? shadows over brick and grassy things will stop it. Is Parcel 15 still worthy for consideration as a tall proposal?

West End near the Charles (anytime in the near term)? no way.

Downtown/West End at the State Services Bldg? tough to say. why wasn't it included in the Amazon RFP?

The fact is, i'm right.

i could have returned your rude post with an expletive.

i could make the case for having done so.
thehugemanatee.jpg
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Still waiting for anyone to show the parcels that have any realistic chance of being redeveloped with tall buildings.

1. 1 Bromfield Street 709'
2. 115 Federal Street 691'
3. Harbor Garage Tower 600'

Approved;

1. South Station Tower 677'
2. 1 Congress St 647'

Downtown? 1 Bromfield appears to have been quietly sacked.

Back Bay? shadows over brick and grassy things will stop it. Is Parcel 15 still worthy for consideration as a tall proposal?

West End near the Charles (anytime in the near term)? no way.

Downtown/West End at the State Services Bldg? tough to say. why wasn't it included in the Amazon RFP?

I've said it before, but I guess I have to say it again: this height-fetizishing mentality produces absurd cityscapes like that of Dubai, where numerous skyscrapers were built in complete disregard for the complexities of supply-and-demand marketplace drivers--i.e., raw economic reality--thus leading to this:

https://qz.com/116974/dubais-building-boom-continues-despite-having-one-of-the-worlds-highest-office-vacancy-rates/

Why operate under the same mentality as those grotesque authoritarian petrostates, where the abrupt influx of obscenely high oil revenues post-WWII clearly led to a profoundly warping influence on their cultures? I just don't get it...
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

How about being a City that can build a tall building where you should build one? re; Harbor Garage, 115 Fed St, 1 Bromfield, Parcel 15, 2 Charlesgate W, 45 Worthington, all of which can support the height recently proposed.

how is suggesting the building of 600-750' any type of bad urban planning or height fetish when we are talking about a small handful of parcels that meet a long, special criteria for height dispersed widely about the City?

the state of play isn't just a squat turd fetish. it's bad planning.
 
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Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

How about being a City that can build a tall building where you should build one? re; Harbor Garage, 115 Fed St, 1 Bromfield, Parcel 15, 2 Charlesgate W, 45 Worthington, all of which can support the height recently proposed.

how is suggesting the building of 600-750' any type of bad urban planning or height fetish?

the state of play isn't just a squat turd fetish. it's bad planning.

As someone who lives in the city and lives near downtown... I really don't care about height. All I care about is ground level interaction. Skylines exist for people outside the city to fawn over and I have zero fucks to give about people who live outside the city. The entirety of Boston could be 100ft buildings from here on out and I'd probably be OK with it as long as the ground floors were pedestrian and urban friendly.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Boston is writing checks it can barely cash as it is:

your vision for the City will implode in a few years.

To save us from our socialist cataclysm, we'll need to get considerably taller.

its not a fetish. its just reality.

tall fetish = fake news.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I agree wholeheartedly with Meddlepal. And his/her reason is exactly why no one should fetishize 1 Bromfield, which met a condign fate on account of its arrogance toward the persons who actually use the streets and sidewalks.

As for getting taller, only if market forces, geology and the FAA allow it. Never for its own sake, and never at the cost of the street level.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

One thing I have noticed is the notion that building taller lowers rents. Does anyone know of an example where a city experienced a major construction boom and added a lot to its skyline and street level and the rent went down? I don't think this happens, but could be wrong. I don't see a city growing and becoming more desirable ever lowering rent. Either way a building is being built here why not make it look good? They already had a good design. Its not a what if scenario, something is being built here and the current iteration as of now is lackluster.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

While I too would like to see more height in the city I don't buy the running out of land argument. In this cycle the city has developed a huge swath of the Seaport and put up 1 Dalton, MT, and has in progress Haymarket Garage and the Garden. That's pretty good, including the 2nd or 3rd highest building in the city and the largest downtown. If a less ugly Winthrop Garage goes up, Boston nailed it as far as I'm concerned. A big issue with demand is that businesses are flocking to the Seaport. If that's where they want to be, in 200-300 footers dictated by the proximity to the airport, so be it. There's also a lot more of that neighborhood to be developed by the convention center and once the Post Office gets lost. Nothing wrong with that.

Only other 600 footer I see possibly going up is Harbor Towers. South Station most likely waits until next time. Once the Seaport and Kendall are filled up, then you'll start seeing the financials work to build higher in the city. The area around North Station comes to mind, the awful Hurley building, the O'Neil building, etc can go and be replaced with possibly a new tallest. That garage by the Hynes and any available land the Christian Scientists feel like utilizing on their campus is also a possibility.

Lastly also bear in the mind the city's focus can't solely be on building massive towers but it also needs to build massive amounts of housing as there's not much room in the near suburbs to accommodate population surge. That's done by a million smaller projects but its as important as the next 700 footer.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

One thing I have noticed is the notion that building taller lowers rents. Does anyone know of an example where a city experienced a major construction boom and added a lot to its skyline and street level and the rent went down? I don't think this happens, but could be wrong. I don't see a city growing and becoming more desirable ever lowering rent. Either way a building is being built here why not make it look good? They already had a good design. Its not a what if scenario, something is being built here and the current iteration as of now is lackluster.

It wouldn't happen. Most tall towers tailors to the luxury housing market and as soon as that demand is satisfied, developers stops building tall towers until the demand comes back to drive price up so that building a tall tower is feasible.

The "affordable" ones you usually see are the 5 story ones. The only exceptions are when a tower is required to set aside a portion to be affordable like the Metropolitan in Chinatown.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

If land was becoming scarce, assuming demand, the market would drive land costs up, meaning one would have to build taller to recoup and profit.

Why would one build tall buildings when you can profitably build seemingly endless mid rises in the "Seaport" and elsewhere? That's where the market for your tall buildings was slain.

Buildings are going to be only as tall as justified by the bottom line. Think "Kushner", not old fashioned trophy builders.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

If land was becoming scarce, assuming demand, the market would drive land costs up, meaning one would have to build taller to recoup and profit.

Why would one build tall buildings when you can profitably build seemingly endless mid rises in the "Seaport" and elsewhere? That's where the market for your tall buildings was slain.

Buildings are going to be only as tall as justified by the bottom line. Think "Kushner", not old fashioned trophy builders.

Exactly. And you better hope the land doesn't get scarce because while you are oohing and ahhhing at the tall glass tower going up, you'll be seeing it from your house a few towns over because at that point, nothing being built in the city will come close to what most of you can afford.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

One thing I have noticed is the notion that building taller lowers rents. Does anyone know of an example where a city experienced a major construction boom and added a lot to its skyline and street level and the rent went down? I don't think this happens, but could be wrong. I don't see a city growing and becoming more desirable ever lowering rent. Either way a building is being built here why not make it look good? They already had a good design. Its not a what if scenario, something is being built here and the current iteration as of now is lackluster.

You are probably correct that building booms are typically associated with increasing rents, not steady or decreasing ones. What you are leaving out is the confounding variable that is causing both the building boom and the increase in rents - increasing demand. Given the current supply of housing, housing costs/rents increase as demand goes up. Supply increases to meet the demand. The problem is twofold:

1) Buildings naturally take time to plan, design, go through permitting, build, etc. so there's going to be a lag between demand and supply
2) NIMBYism, zoning, etc. result in less supply than would otherwise be built

For #1, the longer it takes to go from conception to finished product, the less certain a developer can of market conditions upon completion. If I know it's going to take me 1.5 years just to go through permitting, plus another 1.5 years of building, it's going to be 3 years before my building starts getting occupants. What if the bull market turns into a bear market in 3 years?

Streamlining zoning and permitting, and limting unreasonable NIMBYism can help alleviate #1.

For #2, we make choices as a society to limit supply for the common good. Examples that many would agree on include:

- Historic preservation
- Creating open spaces
- Mandating somewhat attractive facades (basically, not building to the absolute lowest common denominator)

Sadly, some (like me) might argue that we limit supply too much. We force buildings to be shorter than they otherwise would be because of blocked views, shadows, "this street was built 100 years ago, and all of the houses or buildings are 4 stories, therefore all future buildings should be 4 stories", etc. The zoning/permitting and review process are often so cumbersome that developers end up giving up, or putting projects off in times when more supply is needed. Affordable housing requirements, such as 15% of units must be affordable, contribute to lowered supply as well, as they raise the cost of development. Mandating union labor is also a huge driver is increased building costs, and therefore less supply. Some would argue that the social good of using union labor outweighs the increased housing costs (I have thoughts on this below).

If it were up to me, I would initiate comprehensive, 21st century zoning reform, aimed at supporting more development and streamlining the permitting process. Getting variances from zoning would become very rare, basically a building either meets the codes or it doesn't. Buildings get built faster, and can be built in more places. Neighbors and citizens get a say, but less of one. Also, investing in transit and decreasing commute times from the outlying cities and towns takes demand pressure off of Boston/Cambridge/Sommerville/Brookline.

Limiting supply is one of the largest drivers of inequality in this country. It's becoming harder every year for lower income people to live in or around this city, their commute times are increasing, or they are leaving/choosing not to live in Boston to live in cheaper cities. These cheaper cities often have less social services, less opportunity to break out of poverty, less cultural assets. Yet for many people, they still make more sense to live in than Boston. It's heartbreaking. I wish that Democrats, the gatekeepers of most of our cities, would realize the strong connection between income inequality and urban housing supply. And I am saying this, lovingly, as a Democrat.
 
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Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

It wouldn't happen. Most tall towers tailors to the luxury housing market and as soon as that demand is satisfied, developers stops building tall towers until the demand comes back to drive price up so that building a tall tower is feasible.

The "affordable" ones you usually see are the 5 story ones. The only exceptions are when a tower is required to set aside a portion to be affordable like the Metropolitan in Chinatown.

This is a good question, does increasing the supply of luxury homes put downward pressure on costs for everyone?

Intuitively, I would say yes. Assuming demand is greater than supply, and the luxury buildings aren't creating induced demand (ex. if every luxury building was designed by Frank Gehry or Robert A.M. Stern, and the attractiveness of the architecture literally compelled people to move to Boston), someone is either

- Vacating an existing unit for the new luxury unit, opening up a unit of housing, OR
- Not moving into the city and occupying some other unit, but occupying this luxury unit instead

I'm a small example of this. My partner and I were paying almost $3K together living in the Back Bay. When our lease was coming up, we decided to check out some of the new construction around Assembly, Northpoint and Alewife, and ended up finding a 'luxury' unit that rented for less than $3K and was nicer than our current unit. Our landlord had a hard time finding a new tenant for the Back Bay unit, so she ended up having to rent it for $2.8K, when we were expecting our rent to go up $100 or $200 if we stayed another year.

That said, it's sort of a cascading or dare I say, 'trickle-down' effect (god, I hate myself for using this awful term). If supply was allowed to quickly meet demand, luxury units would probably be the first built. Then, when the luxury market is saturated, developers could make more profit from building middle class or upper-middle class buildings (fit more units into the building, use less expensive materials, etc.). This is mostly because of the high fixed costs of development irrespective of what kind of building it becomes. It would still take awhile, if ever, for developers to build truly affordable units for genuinely poor people. In this sense, I'm for governments building affordable housing or subsidizing rents for people who are struggling.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

It would still take awhile, if ever, for developers to build truly affordable units for genuinely poor people. In this sense, I'm for governments building affordable housing or subsidizing rents for people who are struggling.

Appreciate all these comments of yours. I think this here is a key point: there really is no market solution for people who don't make a decent amount of money. Sane, modern urban zoning and government-subsidized housing and rent (spread around new development, not in discrete, sequestered projects) is the only answer to the housing crisis.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Appreciate all these comments of yours. I think this here is a key point: there really is no market solution for people who don't make a decent amount of money. Sane, modern urban zoning and government-subsidized housing and rent (spread around new development, not in discrete, sequestered projects) is the only answer to the housing crisis.

I don't think any of this is realistic though while at the same time completely agreeing with the key point. To me the solution is better transit access to less costly places. In Boston, as shitty as the MBTA is, you can ride the train from Worcester or Fitchburg or Brockton or Haverhill to name a few and get to a job in Boston. Why everyone now feels the need to cram into an already crammed city I'll never know but I don't feel massive new subsidies are the answer when there's plenty of relatively affordable places 30 miles away. I'd rather use that money to increase the reliability of service and in some limited cases expand the service (Blue line to Lynn for example).
 

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