Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Rover said:
Yup, and really who cares? Not our architecture fetish crowd out here of course, who do serve a vital purpose, but for the public at large. Did anybody really plan on hanging out in the "Great Hall"? I know I didn't and I work next door. The project replaced a condemned garage downtown and coughed up hundreds of millions of dollars in funds for parks and other priorities. Frankly, that's enough in my book.

Oh and tosh, its a little early in the day to be drinking.
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They promised the city something and they have twice VE'd it back. It's time to send a message and establish precendence with these developers who VE everything and laugh their asses off.

So they are now saying "We will do 91% of what we promised in our winning bid". Sorry, Rover, that can't cut it.

The city needs to remember its position in this. Raise the bar. Boston is not Dubuque.
 
shmessy said:
They promised the city something and they have twice VE'd it back. It's time to send a message and establish precendence with these developers who VE everything and laugh their asses off.

The city needs to remember its position in this. Raise the bar. Boston is not Dubuque.
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This is outrageous - if there not willing to do what they promised - order the developer to cease construction.
 
awood91 said:
I find it funny how every post of yours compares something in Boston to something in NYC, as if you couldn't fathom an understanding of either city without the other.
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Thank you!!! I thought I was the only one who noticed this. But at least s/he is not on my Ignore list like that one member who I now see just posted more garbage based on all the recent replies.
 
Can you guys please not quote Tosh/Odu, or respond to him, like, ever? It negates the utility of Ignore, which I am otherwise really enjoying.

Or he can just go the f away, that's fine too.
 
Sounds like they're basically recreating the lobby at Atlantic Wharf. A nice space but hardly a place that welcomes in the public.
 
shmessy said:
They promised the city something and they have twice VE'd it back. It's time to send a message and establish precendence with these developers who VE everything and laugh their asses off.

So they are now saying "We will do 91% of what we promised in our winning bid". Sorry, Rover, that can't cut it...
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Agreed. They took Winthrop Square like Grant took Vicksburg. it should be obvious from my post that i agree this is the greatest bait and switch. But
obviously, share a similar position with Rover.

Shepard said:
Or he can just go the f away, that's fine too.
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i don't know how you possess the entitlement to make a rude post like that. While my Yimby position might not be as sophisticated as you or KMP. i'll just ask. Did you attend the meetings?

i was the first and loudest public complainer that the "over-bid" would produce the fattest thing ever..... NOT A SOUL in Boston saw this obvious fact. i risked alienating a development group. i put in serious time on a public and private lobbying effort for the twin-tower design before it was even being *considered by the design team (all in the public record).
*(i know because i was in contact).

Feel free to critique the final design on its merits. They had reached an impasse with BCDC, with an unacceptable design--and the alternative would have been either build a garbage tower or begin the process with the City and shareholders to reduce the benefit packages. Good luck with that one.

We weren't getting Accordia.

But i'm also fairly certain, if half the other bidders had been chosen--this thing would be still be an empty lot of gravel and dirt, and Shirley Kressel would be campaigning they'd sold the City out for 1/2 of what they could have gotten.

Millennium's performance to run through the process was nothing short of incredible. The pro's showed up and got it done.

i never planned to spend two minutes in the Great Passage. Srsly, did any of you really care about it? My focus at ground level is the park. We should work behind the scenes on improving it.
 
In case anyone's interested, we already had a pretty robust conversation about The (not-so-fucking) Great Hall/Connector/Tunnel of Loot, two months ago, beginning here, and dissipating here.

A couple of salient points from that discussion:
Beton Brut said:
The problem with the Great Hall is that it "sells" us something we've seen too much of, and that most of us can't afford. It offers an image with no content behind it. It's a shiny response to an empty (and potentially unsatisfiable) requirement.

Reflecting back on my original question, "considering contemporary priorities and values, what is 'civic space'? What is a 'grand public gesture'? The people who need this are the least likely to ever set foot in the building - kids who need help doing homework, adults who need better job skills or financial literacy. The Great Connector "connects" a city street with a pocket park. I think we need multiple modes of connection between people and solutions.

And suddenly we're having a sociology discussion...My apologies...
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DigitalSciGuy said:
I think this is the bigger problem considering the context and the adjacent neighbourhood that still lacks a welcoming civic space. Chinatown just had a BPS branch reopen, but that's not nearly enough. JVS runs a career center next door at 75 Franklin, but that's not nearly enough. I still think this could be successful if MP tapped an org like Venture Cafe to run it if they used this space to align their interests with social good.
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Carry on...
 
^^Brut,
Your measured expectations and interpretation of their professional dismantling of the skywalk was brilliant.
 
Beton Brut said:
"...Originally Posted by Beton Brut View Post
The problem with the Great Hall is that it "sells" us something we've seen too much of, and that most of us can't afford. It offers an image with no content behind it. It's a shiny response to an empty (and potentially unsatisfiable) requirement.

Reflecting back on my original question, "considering contemporary priorities and values, what is 'civic space'? What is a 'grand public gesture'? The people who need this are the least likely to ever set foot in the building - kids who need help doing homework, adults who need better job skills or financial literacy. The Great Connector "connects" a city street with a pocket park. I think we need multiple modes of connection between people and solutions...."
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You, too, were fooled by the name! "The Connector" adds NOTHING NEW. The Great Hall connected the very same two streets - - only it was bigger and more inviting for people to stay awhile in the additional restaurants and shared meeting space (none of which is outlined in the Globe's piece about Millenium's change of plans) .

"The Connector" adds no more street "connection" than the Great Hall did. You make it sound as if connecting Winthrop Square with Federal Street is some type of new revelation in this change. It isn't. It's only VE shrinkage with a slick naming campaign to fool the public into thinking it is some sort of new slant.

http://www.bldup.com/projects/115-winthrop-square

.The tower’s first three floors would contain a 12,000-square-foot Great Hall public space. The Great Hall would create a new connection between Winthrop Square and Federal Street and would be lined with 31,000 square feet of restaurant and retail space as well as 21,000 square feet of shared meeting space.

As Boston grows up and becomes more of an 18 hour a day city instead of a 10 hour a day city, retail, restaurants and shared meeting space in a crossroads/downtown building MEAN SOMETHING to the extended hour vibrancy of a city striving to become more lively and world class.

.
 
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Well, I live in NYC and have lived in Boston, too. When I see something here or there that looks like something here or there, I mention it.

I am not disparaging Boston and I don't brag about NYC. My Shed / Great passage comment was an honest question.

I am adding my thoughts and observations. Which is what this thing is about, no? Why is that a problem?

awood91 said:
I find it funny how every post of yours compares something in Boston to something in NYC, as if you couldn't fathom an understanding of either city without the other.
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odurandina said:
...interpretation of their professional dismantling of the skywalk was brilliant.
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Where'd I ever mention a skywalk?

shmessy said:
"The Connector" adds no more street "connection" than the Great Hall did. You make it sound as if connecting Winthrop Square with Federal Street is some type of new revelation in this change. It isn't. It's on VE shrinkage. Plain and simple.
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I agree. And to clarify, in my view, nothing that Millennium's proposed addresses a "civic need" that I'm aware of. If Millennium were offering an equivalent amount of square footage devoted to financial literacy or home financing education programs, a library branch, or another opportunity for working families to gain better access to the knowledge economy, I'd be all for it. But that's never been part of the conversation.

And what the City's asking for is/was every bit as problematic and deficient as Millennium's proposal.

shmessy said:
As Boston grows up and becomes more of an 18 hour a day city instead of a 10 hour a day city, retail, restaurants and shared meeting space in a crossroads/downtown building MEANS SOMETHING to the extended hour vibrancy of a city striving to become more lively and world class.
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There is value in vibrancy, and it's value for the developer and the surrounding neighborhood. But how does that translate to the way the space will be used by "the public"?
 
Czervik.Construction said:
Well, I live in NYC and have lived in Boston, too. When I see something here or there that looks like something here or there, I mention it.

I am not disparaging Boston and I don't brag about NYC. My Shed / Great passage comment was an honest question.

I am adding my thoughts and observations. Which is what this thing is about, no? Why is that a problem?
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Not sure there's a problem.
People on this (and almost all forums) have a special skill for succeeding at being a dick whether they are trying to or not.

Comparing something new or proposed to something existing or proposed elsewhere provides a point of reference. Points of reference help one understand something else better.

It's been fairly obvious since you starting posting on here (because you've told us the above before) that you know both cities fairly well.

Comparing or contrasting things is not always about this is better than that or mines bigger than yours.

Personally I appreciate the info on cities like NYC that I have very little actual experience in.
 
^ Yeah, I like what Czervik.Construction's brings to the board. Just because all the NY comparisons can be a bit amusing, that doesn't mean they aren't valuable.

In short, keep on doing what you're doing, Czervik.
 
The NYC comparisons always make me want to check whatever it is out, next time I'm down that way. I think it's useful on several different levels. As for the great Great Hall v Lesser Connector debate, I agree with those who never saw significant value in the more grand proposal. It was always going to be a cut through for most people. The active programming was likely to most be used by users of the building.
 
I took awood91's comment humorously. As I said, I always noticed the comparisons as well, but I was never annoyed or unappreciative. It's all good.
 
shmessy said:
They promised the city something and they have twice VE'd it back. It's time to send a message and establish precendence with these developers who VE everything and laugh their asses off.

So they are now saying "We will do 91% of what we promised in our winning bid". Sorry, Rover, that can't cut it.

The city needs to remember its position in this. Raise the bar. Boston is not Dubuque.
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Do you ever stop to consider that maybe you personally care a lot more about this stuff than 99.9% of the population, and therefore your opinion might not carry the day?

If you want to make the perfect the enemy of the good, and would like the project halted (another poster's take, not yours) over this be my guest. But, don't cry in your beer when the rest of us blow it off as an extremely minor detail in a place none of us ever expected to spend time in. In the meantime we get a new tower and 200M or so of improvements around the city. Still seems like a good deal to me.
 
Beton Brut said:
Where'd I ever mention a skywalk?
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i assumed implicit was our general acceptance of MP's desire to push the observation deck aside was to create a gated community above the office floors.

We all interpret each others' meanings differently short of the exponential increase you'd get from a live round-table. Take the surrogate (Great Hall) nonsense, VE it, swap in retail space in a building that hardly needs any. Then surpass all expectations for bloodthirsty cost-cutting by claiming the public hadn't taken to it..... brilliant.

HenryAlan said:
The NYC comparisons always......
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are interesting and welcome. On an architecture and urbanism discussion forum? Metropolis, 235 miles south & west. Would anyone claim there's not a scintilla of interest?

shmessy said:
Raise the bar.
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*see the dig site and trucks. They gave the competition & nimby's a thorough ass kicking. The extortion to buy in WAS HUGE on this.
 
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Rover said:
Do you ever stop to consider that maybe you personally care a lot more about this stuff than 99.9% of the population, and therefore your opinion might not carry the day?

If you want to make the perfect the enemy of the good, and would like the project halted (another poster's take, not yours) over this be my guest. But, don't cry in your beer when the rest of us blow it off as an extremely minor detail in a place none of us ever expected to spend time in. In the meantime we get a new tower and 200M or so of improvements around the city. Still seems like a good deal to me.
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"Do you ever stop to consider that maybe you personally care a lot more about this stuff than 99.9% of the population"

Umm.....You just described the membership of this forum. What's your point? Guilty as charged, Your Honor.

---------------------------

In the meantime, thank you for at least pointing out that halting the project is not my desire, but some other poster's.

The one and only reason this "reconsidered" change is being made is for the Benjamins. Rebranding it a "Connector" is merely slickness trying to pull one over on the rubes. It works.

But it's 2019. The City of Boston has every right (and the leverage) to hold them to their previous plan.

.
 
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