Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

[chrisbrat]

Maybe I am still just irrationally annoyed at the uncapped Millennium Tower roof).

that's not irrational at all. it's infuriating that they pulled that low-rent bullshit. i get that it would mean many, many more $$$ on their part, but come on -- have a little pride in your work and your word.

this new building sucks eggs and was always the weakest of all the proposals. them taking away the "great" hall and replacing it with what amounts to a fancy airport walkway is just another instance of these chuckleheads treating boston like an easily manipulated, limp-dick backwater.

 

[Rover]

Sure, but, that needs to be negotiated, no where did I say its set in stone, but, one party can't just change/ignore requirements at whim. I am also all for this project and the benefits we are getting from it - I just don't think any developer should be allowed to change what they agreed to do on a whim (see the Hancock observation deck, etc). They City should at least push back on this to show they aren't push-overs, even if the results is ending up at this same place. Maybe I am still just irrationally annoyed at the uncapped Millennium Tower roof).

I have no problem with people making a stink over this if they'd like. I personally don't find it to be terribly important but if someone else does have at it.

And to those who incessantly rail against a perceived development-refusenik-stasi culture in Boston, would you show up a watercolor class with a paint roller and a spray gun?

I'd totally do that!

Backing out of a deal is a really great way to give ammunition to NIMBYs for future battles.

The professional NIMBY class in this city has already been embalmed and prepared for burial. Building 115 Winthrop Square up to FAA limits AND getting the shadow law changed was closing the lid on their coffin. The CLF getting rolled on the Whiskey Priest development was lowering the coffin down into hole. If Harbor Towers goes up, you can pretty much start throwing the dirt over them.

NIMBY's have been getting crushed in this development cycle like they haven't seen in 50 years.

 

[stick n move]

Haha your right on that, if the aquarium garage tower ever goes up, the professional NIMBYS are officially 6 ft under.

 

[odurandina]

They needed ~150,000 more sq ft or creative tax relief package. It's getting late. i wonder if City Hall realizes they backed themselves in a corner by creating the aura of inflexibility on the 900,000 sq ft limit. The rabid nimby's won't let a tax relief package fly without WWIII breaking out.

 

[chrisbrat]

They needed ~150,000 more sq ft or creative tax relief package. It's getting late. i wonder if City Hall realizes they backed themselves in a corner by creating the aura of inflexibility on the 900,000 sq ft limit. The rabid nimby's won't let a tax relief package fly without WWIII breaking out.

i find blind NIMBYism as annoying as anyone (even you), but how is letting a developer/investor such as millennium running roughshod over local government any better than letting small-minded dimwits striving to keep boston stuck in the 19th century run this town?

these changes (downgrades) SUCK and simply sitting back and saying, "well, i like tall buildings, so who cares?" is kinda short-sighted IMHO.

 

[Czervik.Construction]

I know that the Great Hall is lost, but the 2.0 downgrade could still be a nice space if the quality of materials is very high. I think Millennium wouldn't cheap out there.

 

[odurandina]

i agree. That space is very hard to dismiss from just renders.

We might end up seeing engaged community participation in any case.

 

[stick n move]

They literally just now said on the news that Franklin park is getting $28 million in rennovations and its due to this project.

 

[statler]

How much of that is going to the golf course?

 

[stick n move]

They said its going towards restoring it back to its original intended design. Id imagine something kind of like what happened with the muddy river. Pretty cool if so. Im not sure where the actual project documents are, but thats what they said on the news. Im sure its out there somewhere.

 

[kmp1284]

How much of that is going to the golf course?

I'm pretty sure the golf course project was finished by last summer. I can't imagine they would have had the state amateur there if it was still in progress.

 

[shmessy]

What? Just because you overbid for something doesn't mean you can just arbitrarily change the terms of the agreement. This was in the agreement/RFP, if they couldn't pay up, they shouldn't have bid so high.

+1.

It's not the City of Boston's problem, it is Millenium's. They can't just unilaterally go back on what they promised. Screw those two-faced bastards . The City should take their $153 million and go to the runners up to build this - - with an observation deck.

The City and its residents are in demand and are the boss, not the developers.

 

[shmessy]

Most likely Squirrely Shirley's motivations were to kill the project. But, its an important point. You can make people pay top dollar for the land, but then you'll need to cut back on the bells and whistles. I remember reading some NIMBY's commenting on the project in the Globe. Their brilliant "idea" was to make the developer build up to the current limits (like 400 feet or something) but still make them pony up the 150M up front! Apparently there was no consideration that the developer would just walk. You couldn't invent some of these people if you tried.

You fail to understand that Boston ain't Indianapolis.....and that there were 4 runners up - - - a lot more now would be happy to step in now the Millenium has done much of the site work.

It's not too much to require that a developer of a central downtown Boston parcel stays true to his word.

Boston, in 2019, has all the cards. Not the developers. You concerns would have been valid in the 70's or 80's. For whatever reason, your mindset is stuck in that era. Holding a developer to his promise is not playing dirty. A developer going back on a promise is.

Hell, I'm an unabashed YIMBY - - - let's build tall, dammit - - and with top materials, observation decks and street level activation (or at least without allowing developers to panst the city by going back on their word). Why the support from you and Odurandina for going only part way on that? You afraid that it's 1979? Why settle for anything not world-class?

Boston is a Champions' city. Let fourth-rate cities like Indianapolis (who raise a banner if the Colts win one playoff game) wet their pants about developers pulling up stakes if required to fulfill committments.

Many of us root for the city of Boston and its sustainable long-term economic growth. Growth that will be determined not by structures, but WHAT ACTIVITY HAPPENS INSIDE THOSE STRUCTURES a (a distinction that Sim-City players like Odurandina cannot comprehend). There was over 31K of retail space included in that original Great Hall. That would have stimulated more pedestrian and economic activity - - - and at hours extended from just the workday hours of the buildings' tenants. Your tunnel vision is severely limited.


.

 

[Rover]

Shmessy I'm starting to question your grasp on reality. You are seriously suggesting keeping the 153m the developer ponied up and then awarding the site which is already under construction to a different developer? Okay then! What does the skyline look like in the fantasyland world you apparently live in?

 

[stick n move]

Heres what I could find. Its from 2017, but details using $28 million from the sale of the garage.
https://www.dotnews.com/2017/franklin-park-allies-eye-benefits-sale-city-owned-garage

 

[shmessy]

Shmessy I'm starting to question your grasp on reality. You are seriously suggesting keeping the 153m the developer ponied up and then awarding the site which is already under construction to a different developer? Okay then! What does the skyline look like in the fantasyland world you apparently live in?

Of course not. There isn’t a court in the land that would rule in favor of the city taking all the money and running. But the cold hard fact is that Millenium broke an agreement. You are showing no grasp of reality in believing this is 1979 and that Boston is at the whim of developers who believe they can unilaterally change what they agreed to build once they get shovels into the ground. There are plenty to take their place for that location and if Millenium cheated on their promise then yes, there should be some monetary penalty for their breach which should go towards the city.

The more fundamental question, Rover, is why do you believe, in the year 2019, that the city of Boston is in such a subservient position as to be required to accept unilateral VE changes by developers? And, if the city accedes to this now, what is to stop future developers from making it their standard operating procedure to purposely bs their proposals, laughingly knowing full well that they are selling snake oil?

Given the current supply and demand market position of the city of Boston, do you actually believe it has no leverage and must simply accept the developers' unilateral breaches?.

 

[jdrinboston]

I’m fairly certain that when the groundbreaking occurred this fall, the scaled down rendering of the “great hall” was already being used. From my perspective, the BPDA already reviewed and approved this iteration of the hall. This would have happened at the same time the building itself - and its updated design - got its final sign off prior to the start of construction. My thinking the Globe was looking for a story angle in this project, given the non-sexy phase of construction its currently in, and decided to do a feature on the hall. I’m not sure the city is in any position legally, to make any demands for design change at this point?

 

[fattony]

Can someone help me understand what exactly has changed besides the name? I can clearly see that the arches are gone and therefore some of the visual grandiosity, but what about size, retail space, etc? It “seems” about the same to me. Can anyone quantify objective differences?

 

[odurandina]

Shmessy I'm starting to question your grasp on reality. You are seriously suggesting keeping the 153m the developer ponied up and then awarding the site which is already under construction to a different developer? Okay then! What does the skyline look like in the fantasyland world you apparently live in?

Out on newstands;
How We Learned to Stop Worrying and Love Winthrop Square.

 

[KentXie]

I'm just wondering how many people who complained about how this tower was VE'd into the ugly giant shelves are now telling people to stop complaining about how the Great Hall was VE'd?

I'm complaining about both btw. At least some of us are consistent.