Rose Kennedy Greenway

[CSTH]

I'm with Charlie.

Again: 1. The parks are great. 2. But the fabric remains torn (except in Bulfinch triangle, which illustrates the point) - and is torn in some new ways.

BTW this is what i mean by place:

I argue that the greenway is all "unfocused corridor"

 

[TheRifleman]

I think the main issue for the Greenway is what will become of Harbor Garage: That will determine the ultimate success to Greenway--- The rest of the area you can tweak or evolve overtime.

Harbor Garage Development would probably open up the area to instant success if it was built as proposed.

That development would connect the strip right to the waterfront- at the main center point of the Greenway.
Probably 70% of the Greenway problems is keeping that Garage their. It's a disgrace for the public.

 

[CSTH]

Its 1.5 miles from causeway st to kneeland st.

harbor garage frontage is about 275 feet.

 

[TheRifleman]

^^^^
Yeah but it's the CENTER point to the Greenway:

-- North End
= Harbor Garage --Center Point
--China-Town
This would completely change the Greenway to a more destination spot if the Tower provided year round activities inside of it.
Winter (ice Skate rink)
Summer (Water games for the kids)
Fall (outdoor farmer markets)
Spring (whatever) outdoor café, bars,

I like going down there now. But the garage SUCKS for the public.

 

[CSTH]

^^^^
Yeah but it's the CENTER point to the Greenway:


I like going down there now. But the garage SUCKS for the public.

Got it. Agree that the garage sucks.

Maybe my point is that rather than the 'greenway' needing a center....i think in terms of a number of existing districts / squares that needs centers that currently have a slice of greenway instead. Specifically:

Dewey square needs a center.
Town dock / wharf district needs a center (and the garage project is the opportunity to do it).
North end needs a (better) front door.
Bulfinch triangle needs a front door.
Haymarket needs to be a place again.
etc.

Given the distances involved: saying that the garage can offer a center to the greenway is like saying that copley square offers a central point to beacon hill or faneuil hall offers a central point for fan pier.

Creating a center for the greenway is the wrong goal (unless when you say 'greenway' what you mean is the area between atlantic ave and high st. ... what has sometimes been called the 'wharf district parks' element of the larger greenway - in contrast I'm talking of the full length of the old artery from kneeland to causeway, using 'greenway' as shorthand).

 

[timsox6]

To Shepard, who said

Nobody actually wants to "walk the Greenway" - and if they did. they'd find it to be a most inconvenient and frustrating walk, given the zigzagging ramps and traffic patterns.

I have to disagree: I walk the length of the greenway several times a month just for fun. Sometimes I bike it. I always enjoy myself-- don't paint in such broad strokes.

I would think that at least part of the solution is simply to build up all the parcels along the Greenway that have just been crawling through approvals, most notably: Town Cove, the two wedge-shaped developments on Broad and India Streets; the new Haymarket/Blackstone Block building that just got approved; the Merano and the hotel proposed next door; the Government Center Garage/Bullfinch Crossing project's Greenway frontage; something, anything, on the dead lots at the entrance to the North End plus that big municipal lot; the Hook Lobster site and Northern Avenue Bridge; and the aforementioned Harbor Garage. There are also a number of potential sites along the Downtown and Chinatown areas of the corridor that could use some opening up. Quincy Marketplace could interact with the parks better too.

I would think that all that private development would go a long, long way.

I'm all in favor of shutting down off-ramps that don't really need to exist. Nicer bike infrastructure would be swell. And fewer cross streets. But instead of complaining on this forum, what can we, as average citizens, do?

 

[curcuas]

^This is an excellent point. The greenway is best where it is built up alongside. Make it easy to build, even build tall as by Dewey Square, and you will finish a great urban space

 

[whighlander]

^This is an excellent point. The greenway is best where it is built up alongside. Make it easy to build, even build tall as by Dewey Square, and you will finish a great urban space

For about the 100th time -- The Greenway is still a work in progress

If you compare the same time of year [mid summer] over the past 3 years you can see that the change has been dramatic. And the drama involves both the surrounds and the Greenway itself

People are now using it "IN DROVES" -- especially where the previously back-turning buildings are now providing interactions -- a lot more of this is already in the pipeline

At the current rate of construction along the Greenway and already approved -- the summer of 2020 should really start to define the Greenway's features and benefits [at least near-term]

By the way -- all of those arguments about straight line roads, continuous green and one wayness -- well they apply to Comm Ave just as well

 

[odurandina]

I think the main issue for the Greenway is what will become of Harbor Garage....

Its 1.5 miles from causeway st to...

Yeah but it's the....

Got it. Agree that the garage sucks. Maybe my point is that....

I would think that at least part of the solution is simply to build up.... most notably:
.....Greenway frontage; something, anything, on the dead lots at the entrance to the North End plus that big municipal lot; the Hook Lobster site and Northern Avenue Bridge; and the aforementioned Harbor Garage.....

...The greenway is best where it is built up alongside. Make it easy to build, even build tall as by Dewey Square....

....The Greenway is still a...
By the way -- all of those arguments about straight line roads....

the Greenway had to accomplish many things, public space, right of way, interchanges, frontage road/s etc, etc. i can'!t think of any reason/s to criticize the Greenway - but those Pagans!!

everything is falling into place but the __damned garage.

and here's all you have to do to build here Mr Don....

1. you have to sink ALL 1400 parking spaces.
2. you have to provide parking to the the aquarium every moment of every day for eternity.
3. you can't build over 600'.
4. you can't build over 900,000 sq ft
5. you can't cast any new shadow/s over Long Wharf before October 23rd!! Jesus Christ.
6. you can't take the parking away from Harbor Towers goddammitt
7. you can't take away our (Aquarium) parking.
8. you can't frigging build that!!
9. you have to fight Chapter 91.
10. you have to fight 2 Harbor preservation groups.
11. you have to fight the Aquarium.
12. you have to fight the Harbor Towers neighbors.
13. you have to fight hidden power behind the scenes from millionaires.
14. you have to pay exorbitant taxes for the parasite class to have housing.
15. no tax relief.
16. you don't have the right to make money you evil son of a bitch.
17. you have to kiss the mayor's ass and don't piss off the board.
18. the fish will die!!
19. death by a thousand cuts +
20. oh btw, got a good law firm? lawsuits, lawsuits, lawsuits!!

there is Downtown Waterfront Planning meeting tomorrow at 6:00 pm, Piemonte Room, 5th Floor... if nothing more; when the moment presents, we can show support for the Harbor Garage project. i've become convinced that neither the city nor the state is serious about ANY FEASIBLE Harbor Garage redevelopment plan that will ever be offered by the Chiofaro Co/Pru ever becoming a reality.

this is this. local and state government often doing the least amount of work possible for the public good and cowering to bullies in the face of controversy.

 

[tysmith95]

Statler closed the aquarium parking garage redevelopment thread because of our endless bitching, but let's just bitch on here. Yes I agree that the parking garage should be replaced but that's already been discussed endlessly over the past 6 months.

 

[statler]

*cough*

 

[Suffolk 83]

Scary when whigh is the voice of reason. Stop talking abou that thing you're not supposed to talk about.

CSTH, it's not the greenway's fault its an unfocused corridor as you demonstrated, it wasn't planned out, the buildings were there before and the path was predetermined based off other factors not concerning the green way itself. Kind of an unfair judgement

 

[bigpicture7]

Does anyone have any updates on the highway ramp-covering projects that are supposedly/maybe/someday going to happen?

http://northendwaterfront.com/2015/...oncepts-ready-for-environmental-review-video/

I agree with timsox that the greenway isn't unenjoyable to walk, but I nonetheless look forward to improved continuity.

 

[CSTH]

CSTH, it's not the greenway's fault its an unfocused corridor as you demonstrated, it wasn't planned out, the buildings were there before and the path was predetermined based off other factors not concerning the green way itself. Kind of an unfair judgement

I see it differently. When the artery came down, we could have done any of a thousand different things with the space above the tunnel.

Even the very fact that you frame the issue as 'the path was there' represents a constrained sense of the possibilities - i.e. it might have been perfectly feasible and reasonable just to rebuild the original street grid and sell the parcels - and erase, as nearly as possible, the 'path'... leaving no more evidence of the artery than of, say, Fort Hill.

Obviously this choice would have implied a number of tradeoffs, like any urban design / planning effort, and I'm not arguing that this would have been the best option - my point is just that accepting the inevitability of a design solution that reflected the form of the artery itself, and was constrained to the footprint of the artery, represents a limited vision of the possibilities.

Now ... we acknowledge that the options were not infinite because of constraints related to the tunnel and many other big hairy important things ... but .... it seems self-evident that the current configuration was neither inevitable nor somehow the result of uncontrollable organic self-assembly.

I recognize that 'Plan A' called for a number of civic buildings, and what we have now is something like a temporary 'Plan B' that has become somewhat permanent - but many of my criticisms of the greenway are true both of plan A and B - and I contend that the economic infeasibility of Plan A was baked in from the start...

TL;DR: A good question is "What's the best thing we could have done with the artery footprint, post-artery"..... A better question is "What might have been the best way to enhance the eastern half of the Shawmut Peninnsula, post artery, taking advantage of the unique opportunities presented by the Big Dig ?

....I think i'm just going to have to draw a couple of pictures.....

 

[Charlie_mta]

The Boston Museum would have been hideous. Looks like the giant sandworm from Dune.

 

[statler]

I'm convinced it was designed to look like the Cheshire Cat because the architect knew it was going to disappear.

 

[whighlander]

I see it differently. When the artery came down, we could have done any of a thousand different things with the space above the tunnel. ...
Now ... we acknowledge that the options were not infinite because of constraints related to the tunnel and many other big hairy important things ... but .... it seems self-evident that the current configuration was neither inevitable nor somehow the result of uncontrollable organic self-assembly.....

TL;DR: A good question is "What's the best thing we could have done with the artery footprint, post-artery"..... A better question is "What might have been the best way to enhance the eastern half of the Shawmut Peninnsula, post artery, taking advantage of the unique opportunities presented by the Big Dig ?

....I think i'm just going to have to draw a couple of pictures.....

CSTH -- Stephanie Polack's buddies at the CLF held the Commonwealth hostage to the commitment that 70% of the land formerly occupied by the expressway would be reserved for parks -- that cast the die on the string of parks concept

The fundamental planning mistake was to believe all the various non-profits could arrange financing for the ambitious projects on the properties that were reserved for them and them alone

It turns out that none of the them had a clue what it would take to build on top of the buried highway and as a result [which I predicted] -- none have produced anything except architectural renders

The only part of the Greenway plan completely achieved was to restore the cross streets obliterated in the 1950's

Nonetheless what has come out of the reworking of the plan is that the Greenway is a success

This process has proved more than anything else that -- Things Change -- and to succeed you need to not just realize this -- but incorporate it into the core of your thinking and planning

 

[TheRifleman]

Statler closed the aquarium parking garage redevelopment thread because of our endless bitching, but let's just bitch on here. Yes I agree that the parking garage should be replaced but that's already been discussed endlessly over the past 6 months.

What would make the Greenway a better place for the public:
#1 Rebuild Harbor Garage (create and outdoor atmosphere in the central location of the Greenway) A destination spot to the Waterfront that connects to the Greenway
#2 Rebuild Hook Site
#3 Re-evaluate the ramps (Close them down)
#4 Shutdown traffic on Sundays for the bikers on Greenway (like Storrow Drive)
#5 Build a platform for Dewey Square
#6 Build a indoor Greenhouse that was originally proposed from the Greenway Conservancy. (Good Idea)
#7 After #1 & 2 are built--along with other developments try to push the general maintenance costs to the park on the businesses in the area to clean up in front of the buildings.
#8 Greenway Conservancy--Liquidate this agency. the City of Boston can dump the trash and water the flowers since they are getting taxes to do so.
(The Private Landlords in the area can build a community group to help how they want the parks to evolve.)


These are facts surrounding the Greenway:
The Greenway Conservancy was a disaster
#1 How many proposed developments did the Greenway Conservancy build? NONE
#2 The Greenway Conservancy calling out profitable businesses around the area to support a GREENWAY BID.
#3 Investigative report concerning the corruption of overtime pay concerning the conservancy. OUT OF CONTROL
#4 What happened to all the MONEY?

Petty Arguments?

 

[HenryAlan]

I have to disagree: I walk the length of the greenway several times a month just for fun. Sometimes I bike it. I always enjoy myself-- don't paint in such broad strokes.

I also disagree with Shephard. I recently took out of town visitors on a tour of the Greenway, along with a few side excursions to nearby points of interest. They had both been to Boston many times, but never this part of Boston, and they were completely entranced. And to be honest, so was I, which is generally what happens every time I walk it, despite having already had a few such epiphanies. The park is lush, beautiful, and teaming with use. There is some untapped potential, certainly, especially along some of the parcels you mentioned, but it really does connect some interesting parts of the city, and the combination of gardens and art installations makes for a thoroughly enjoyable experience. I have to think that structures or other elements intended to break the park in to multiple focused areas would greatly lessen the likelihood of anybody making the linear trip, with people instead simply crossing through one of the plazas en route to somewhere else.

 

[bigpicture7]

2 cents:

We are making a mountain out of a molehill here. The greenway just needs some better definition and enclosure at a few points along its sides (which, as many have already pointed out, is in the works in several places...more would be welcome). Otherwise its highly utilized and seemingly enjoyed by thousands.

Is this forum taking for granted how hard it is to get anything this good done in this city?